Was Jesus worshiped as God?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So Jesus was given power over everything except the power to choose who sits on his left and right?

But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. - Mark 10:40

If its not Jesus' to give, then who's is it to give? And who prepares the places?

John 14:1-3

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

reply to post by Deetermined


That does not answer my previous question.

I'd like to know how Jesus was given power over "everything", but not the power to choose who could sit to his right and left.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Hello, that was in response to the demand of Satan to be worshiped by Jesus.
You are taking it out of context and (deceptively?) implying that Jesus was telling others not to worship him.
Jesus accepted all worship directed to him.
He was against worshiping Satan.

I am not "implying" that Jesus told others not to worship him.
Its pretty evident that Jesus himself directed all worship to God. Which is why the Lords prayer as taught by Jesus is addressed to the "Father in heaven" and not to himself.Then we have the prayer in the garden... where Jesus was praying to God asking for the cup to pass from him.

The meaning of the greek word for worship also includes an act of homage directed towards other humans...
such as the kind Daniel received from Nebuchadnezzar.... or the kind of worship a church received in Revelations 3. Whatever is described as "worship" directed towards Jesus is simply an act of homage no different than what Daniel and that church received.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

 

That does not answer my previous question.

I'd like to know how Jesus was given power over "everything", but not the power to choose who could sit to his right and left.

Matthew 25:31-34

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

In my opinion, Jesus was telling James and John that the position of sitting on Jesus' right hand or left hand wasn't his to give because those positions were already determined from the foundation of the world.

If you read the verses that follow Mark 10:40, Jesus tells them that the people ruling in his kingdom may not be who they think they are going to be and I'm not so sure that Jesus isn't telling them that there will not be anyone sitting on his left hand or right and that sole authority will be given to him as the greatest "minister" and the one who was "servant to all".

Mark 10:42-45

42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 9:33-35

33 And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?

34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.

35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

In verse 35, Jesus seems to be implying that those who desire to be first will be last in his kingdom.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

How did Christ die a human death to afford us a spiritual afterlife? He himself was denighed an AFTERLIFE, at least one not plausable to his ideology "Wishing and thinking, thinking and wishing" Not happening for HIM. Christ was anything than what the Bible tells you. God exsists for me as eyes to see, rabbits in the field next property, ears to hear, rabbits in the field outside my fence line; hiding, running, burrowing. You recreate Christ every time you humans die; is that not ENOUGH? IS THAT NOT THE REAL MESSAGE? Christ was lied to.

edit on 24-2-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

What do you mean when you say Christ was lied to?

From this post as well as another you made in a different thread, I'm beginning to think that you worship the earth, the universe or Satan himself.

I think you've been lied to.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Whatever is described as "worship" directed towards Jesus is simply an act of homage no different than what Daniel and that church received.

That's your biased opinion but not something provable by your given arguments.
The fact is that Jesus did not reprove people for worshiping him, or calling him Lord, or God.
And the angel's comment in Rev. 22:9 is not to only worship God, it was to worship God rather than him.
My suggestion to you is to read Hebrews where Jesus is given all the attributes of the Old Testament god, and the same is done in Rev. 1, being called the first and last.
The only proper conclusion, in my opinion, is that Jesus is as much a god as the person in the OT commonly referred to as God.
Christians understand that Jesus was the messenger to the world that there was a higher God, and that was God in heaven, and that Jesus replaced that OT "The Lord" person as the Lord, the I Am, and so is god, in his own right, having come down from Heaven where he was a god, and then reconfirmed as Lord by the Heavenly Father at his ascension after his resurrection.

Which is why the Lords prayer as taught by Jesus is addressed to the "Father in heaven" and not to himself.

The New Testament teaches that all things come from God but through Jesus. That is why we pray in Jesus' name. For Jesus' sake we are given those things by God.
It has nothing to do with some sort of exclusiveness of worship of God to the exclusion of Jesus.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

How did Christ die a human death to afford us a spiritual afterlife? He himself was denighed an AFTERLIFE, at least one not plausable to his ideology "Wishing and thinking, thinking and wishing" Not happening for HIM. Christ was anything than what the Bible tells you. God exsists for me as eyes to see, rabbits in the field next property, ears to hear, rabbits in the field outside my fence line; hiding, running, burrowing. You recreate Christ every time you humans die; is that not ENOUGH? IS THAT NOT THE REAL MESSAGE? Christ was lied to.

edit on 24-2-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

What do you mean when you say Christ was lied to?

From this post as well as another you made in a different thread, I'm beginning to think that you worship the earth, the universe or Satan himself.

I think you've been lied to.

edit on 25-2-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

I meant exactly what I said: CHRIST WAS LIED TO. I worship NO THING, it is beyond my comprehension to do so as it is not WITHIN MY NATURE to even contemplate. I do not recognise the UNIVERSE as separate from me because I am IT. I do not recognise Satan AT ALL. Earth can speak for itself.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


So much for your universe!

2 Peter 3:10

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

reply to post by Deetermined


You're quoting the King James and they went with a variant of the Greek text that is not accepted as being an accurate copy by today's biblical scholars.
The best translation is that all the earth will be laid bare so that all will be revealed in order to be judged.
What he is getting at is that right now, people seem to be getting away with living ungodly lives but that is not going to last forever.

reply to post by jmdewey60


What is says is that HEAVEN AND earth will pass away.

God is going to replace the existing heaven and earth with a new heaven/earth that we all can reside on together and not separate.

The Bible describes what the new heaven/earth will be like. It doesn't come close to resembling the earth we know today in physical terms.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I have a post on my blogspot that deals with "How are we saved by a name? It explains based on old testamet scripture how the Creator placed his name in his angel - the Angel of the Lord. Theologians, both Christians and Jews have taught that the messiah would be the "angel of the Lord" incarnate. The name or essence of the Creator would be in him. When we call on the name of the messiah we are really calling on the name of the Creator and His essence that the messiah represents. See my post at danielbarzohar.blogspot.com.

reply to post by Deetermined

God is going to replace the existing heaven and earth with a new heaven/earth that we all can reside on together and not separate.

And you don't think that could be a tiny bit metaphorical?
The main point of the sentence in verse 11 is,
"conducting our lives in holiness and godliness,"
The point of the "new heaven and new earth" is there will "truly dwell righteousness".
The same "us" will be there, but living righteously.
So it's not literally a 'new' earth, but one that has been judged of its unrighteousness.
That judgment already happened when Jerusalem and its temple and religion and people who hated Jesus, were all burnt down.
Now we live in a earth where Christianity abounds, unhampered by its earlier foe, the one that killed Jesus and lived in rebellion and lawlessness, a plague upon the earth.

reply to post by jmdewey60

The point of the "new heaven and new earth" is there will "truly dwell righteousness".
The same "us" will be there, but living righteously.
So it's not literally a 'new' earth, but one that has been judged of its unrighteousness.

I thought you knew your Bible better than that.

Revelation 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:11-12 - 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Revelation 21:18-23 - 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 21:25 - And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 22:5 - And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

I think it's pretty hard to deny that the new heaven/earth will be physically different when it doesn't even require a sun or a moon, does not have a sea, but has a river of life and tree of life. And although you may think that the descriptions of the gates of the city might be metaphorical, more description regarding the measurements are listed in chapter 21.

We already know that our bodies will be physically transformed. Our bodies will be "incorruptible", will not age, decay or die.

So, what makes you think that the earth will remain the same? I already showed you the verse showing that it will be burned up and will pass away, and for good reason. It has to be wiped clean. Satan corrupted it.

reply to post by Deetermined

I thought you knew your Bible better than that.

All you are quoting is Revelation, which is all metaphorical, of visions of symbolic scenes that afterwards, angels had to consult with him over a period of time while he wrote it all out, to understand anything from it all.
None of this is literal.
We are the city, the New Jerusalem, the Bride. The church, and the new earth is the earth we are living in right now.
Spiritually, Jesus is living with us, he is knocking at the door and you need to let him in.
Don't waste your life dreaming about metaphors becoming 'concrete'.
The concrete is the spiritual reality those symbols were pointing at, back at the dawn of the new age, the one that is now and the one that goes to eternity.

reply to post by jmdewey60

All you are quoting is Revelation, which is all metaphorical, of visions of symbolic scenes that afterwards, angels had to consult with him over a period of time while he wrote it all out, to understand anything from it all.

So, in other words, you don't understand any of it.

Obviously, you don't understand that our bodies are going to be transformed in order to live eternally and the new heaven/earth is going to have to change to accommodate our new bodies and God too.

So, exactly what do you believe in? That heaven and earth will always be separate and believers just go to reside with God in the existing heaven after we die? That mankind will always live and die on planet earth and continue to multiply forever and ever and Satan will always continue to exist?

reply to post by Deetermined

So, exactly what do you believe in?

I believe that the great catyclismic event that the writers of the New Testament were predicting already happened a long time ago.
Once you realize that, then those things like what you are talking about take on new meanings.
I don't think that the Apostles knew what was going to happen exactly except that the true people of God need to show the world what they are and what they believe in, which is Jesus, and to change the world into a better place.
I don't think what we are expected to do is give up on the world, thinking it is just going to get destroyed anyway, along with everyone who doesn't agree with us philosophically.
You have to prove you are better, and that your ideas and beliefs are better by actually making the world better, then you will have your proof and the world will be forced to accept that you were right all along.
Going around with stories of doom and gloom and the end of the world and hell fire is not going to convince anyone.

reply to post by jmdewey60


So, you have no preconceived ideas about heaven and the afterlife?

reply to post by Deetermined

Obviously, you don't understand that our bodies are going to be transformed in order to live eternally and the new heaven/earth is going to have to change to accommodate our new bodies and God too.

If you are going to ridicule Dewey through a misrepresentation of what he actually posted, I would recommend that you provide scriptural support for your own claims first, as well as grammatical research to prove that the supporting scripture actually means what you say it does.

Otherwise, you appear to be touting your own opinion over Dewey's, which was never a wise tactic in debating. The object is to provide conclusive analysis defending your position, not exhibit your egotistical beliefs as proof of your viewpoint through a filtered interpretation of what you've chosen to represent from the Bible.

So let's see a fully detailed case study supporting your position in this subject, yes? I would think that would make a far more efficient rebuttal than the pissing contest you've found yourself engaging in. I personally would be more impressed.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Otherwise, you appear to be touting your own opinion over Dewey's

Dewey never gave an opinion. He came out and basically admitted that Revelation was a bunch of signs and symbols that he didn't understand.

I'm still waiting to hear what it is that he does believe in.

reply to post by Deetermined

. . . signs and symbols that he didn't understand.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say earlier.
In the beginning of Revelation, John is saying that he had these visions and wanted to write them down so he could share them with his friends, but did not know what they meant, or if they meant anything at all.
Then he explains that he had to have subsequent visits by angels to work through these stories to verify to him that they really happened and that they meant something.
It's not clear that John understood even then what they meant.