Was Jesus worshiped as God?

precatholicfaith.blogspot.com...

Scorpie

Actually a lot of theology rests on the meanings of the greek / hebrew words. Nothing clears up theological misconceptions better than understanding the correct meanings of words.

That sounds good, but people who disagree about the christology will manage to disagree about the meanings of the words, too. It's easy to do, since the only way that we the living have to recover the meaning of words from dead langauges is comparison among texts in which the words appear. That's certainly all you'll find in dictionaries and thesauruses. And BTW, "texts" means both secular and sacred texts - wherever the words have been used.

Fortunately for worship, Pliny the Younger tells us just what he means. He means early Second Century Christians accord more divine honors to Jesus than they do to any actual god Pliny bows to, even on pain of death. Paul is even clearer.

Philippians 2: 9ff:

Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That's "worship" even if the word for Lord isn't resolved to the Jewish Adonai.

And as I said, that's as early as we can go. As far back as we have records, Christians have worshipped Jesus as God. That was your question; there is your answer.

I already addressed Thomas' words earlier.

Yes, you did. Hence, the reason for my remark that I don't think your reading is correct or in any way supported by the text.

There are tons of other verses which make clear the fact that God and Jesus are 2 separate entities. Christians ignore all of that and cling on to a single misunderstood verse of John 20:28.

No, Christians haven't ignored anything, they (along with others) read the text differently than you do. No suprise there.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Most entities channeled through various mediums have attested to the nature of Source.

Most entities channeled through various mediums are demonic and lie.

1 Chronicles 10:13

13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;

reply to post by Deetermined

Most entities channeled through various mediums are demonic and lie.

You have no proof other than the Bible, which can't even get its own story straight.

When did you last let your brain decide, and not your heart? For surely these imaginings are not the work of a thoughtful fellow...but rather, a fool ruled by pride and fear.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You make it sound as if God retired and gave Jesus control of the universe. Doesn't make any sense.

Come on, Skorpion! This has been pointed out to you before.

Jesus was given power over everything.

Matthew 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Hebrews 1:2-6

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Philippians 2:10

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

There are many more that point to the fact that Jesus was given power over all.

Jesus was even the keys to the abyss to lock up Satan during the time of the Millennium when it comes.

reply to post by Deetermined

There are many more that point to the fact that Jesus was given power over all.

...and yet, he still died. Not that death means anything to me, but for someone carrying on about immortality, it seems a little ironic that he should essentially be crowned as a god and then die a few short years later.

I stand by my belief that Jesus is not the only way to salvation. Look at all the atheists making a difference in the world. We don't need to worship anything - we should spend more time noticing what the hell we're doing down here than forever pleading with the sky to save us.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Sorry, but I can't help you to understand why Christ died a human death so that the rest of us could live a spiritual afterlife, but that's why Christ came here to die. That's what the Bible tells us. Nothing I say will help you to understand that or anything else that's written in the Bible. Only God can give understanding. That's why the Bible uses the terms "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" frequently. Exactly what eightbits was describing above.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Most entities channeled through various mediums are demonic and lie.

You have no proof other than the Bible, which can't even get its own story straight.

When did you last let your brain decide, and not your heart? For surely these imaginings are not the work of a thoughtful fellow...but rather, a fool ruled by pride and fear.

Why are you so hostile against faith? You have found your way, now let others choose theirs. Why does that involve you and result in you making snide remarks followed by a lol? This is something you're not an expert in.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Deetermined

 

There are many more that point to the fact that Jesus was given power over all.

...and yet, he still died. Not that death means anything to me, but for someone carrying on about immortality, it seems a little ironic that he should essentially be crowned as a god and then die a few short years later.

I stand by my belief that Jesus is not the only way to salvation. Look at all the atheists making a difference in the world. We don't need to worship anything - we should spend more time noticing what the hell we're doing down here than forever pleading with the sky to save us.

edit on 23-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

This is a lie. You don't believe that there is any purpose in following Christ. The way you have worded this suggests that maybe for some people that is the way to go, something anyone from this forum can see is a lie coming from you.

reply to post by Witness123

This is a lie. You don't believe that there is any purpose in following Christ. The way you have worded this suggests that maybe for some people that is the way to go, something anyone from this forum can see is a lie coming from you.

I have never said that. I believe there is good and decent virtue in much of what he taught, whether it be as a historical figure or fictional character. However, there is a difference between valuing the teacher's lessons and giving your entire fate over to that teacher. If any teacher claims to have complete control over your fate, it is a lie. They can only show you how to control that which you can, and how to come to peace with that which you can't, and how to tell the difference.

Worship, in my mind, is one of the most unnecessary ideas we have ever invented. Worship inherently oppresses the power to make things happen for ourselves. It is a debilitating practice. I much prefer veneration, for that balances respect for external powers with recognition of internal powers.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


From my view it is ok to worship Jesus because the one who Jesus referred to as his father will understand immediately, but there are some people who are so focused on Jesus that they take what other people wrote in the bible who didn't actually meet Jesus before who Jesus referred to as his father. It shows how the ego dominates the world because that is an example of being fooled.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

You make it sound as if God retired and gave Jesus control of the universe. Doesn't make any sense.

Come on, Skorpion! This has been pointed out to you before.

Jesus was given power over everything.

Matthew 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

If Jesus was given power in heaven and in earth (on) then whom has given him this power. It must be God. Jesus is not The Most High.

When I say, my spirit is in my body. Then I talk about to seperate things, do you see what I mean. Spirit and Body. Father and son of Father. But my spirit and body are one. Jesus and The Father were one.

Why are you so hostile against faith? You have found your way, now let others choose theirs. Why does that involve you and result in you making snide remarks followed by a lol? This is something you're not an expert in.

I'm hostile against self-debilitation. Any faith that teaches us that we cannot rely upon ourselves to do or be anything we can imagine is a sickening emotional state to be in. We can convince ourselves that we are happy, but then again, a dung beetle is happy rolling poop for all it's life. And yet, if we were to become dung beetles, we would forever long to be human again because we know there's more to life.

You're right, I am not an expert. But neither are the hundreds of Christians, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Evangelics and other zealots that rain deprecation on those they perceive to be opposing their One God...and that doesn't stop them.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Sorry, but I can't help you to understand why Christ died a human death so that the rest of us could live a spiritual afterlife, but that's why Christ came here to die. That's what the Bible tells us. Nothing I say will help you to understand that or anything else that's written in the Bible. Only God can give understanding. That's why the Bible uses the terms "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" frequently. Exactly what eightbits was describing above.

How did Christ die a human death to afford us a spiritual afterlife? He himself was denighed an AFTERLIFE, at least one not plausable to his ideology "Wishing and thinking, thinking and wishing" Not happening for HIM. Christ was anything than what the Bible tells you. God exsists for me as eyes to see, rabbits in the field next property, ears to hear, rabbits in the field outside my fence line; hiding, running, burrowing. You recreate Christ every time you humans die; is that not ENOUGH? IS THAT NOT THE REAL MESSAGE? Christ was lied to.

reply to post by Akragon

But he had a God... which seems to be overlooked in the Christian world

It was when the Roman Imperial Church was formulating the Trinity theory.
Many wars were fought and much destruction to the church occurred. The wrong side won but those who stil may object to the "orthodox" version don't feel so compelled to fight over it.
As long as the church does not have the power to burn "heretics" we can think what we want about the relationship between Jesus and God.
Jesus is Lord and is virtual god over this world. Until when or if we meet God the Father, it is important to give His son all the respect and worship due to God Himself.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Jesus is Lord and is virtual god over this world

So you disagree with paul saying there is a "god" of this world who isn't Jesus?

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

reply to post by Akragon
Paul was writing in a period of transition, where the god of the Jews was fading away and being replaced by the God of Jesus.

reply to post by Deetermined

Come on, Skorpion! This has been pointed out to you before.
Jesus was given power over everything.

So Jesus was given power over everything except the power to choose who sits on his left and right?

But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. - Mark 10:40

If its not Jesus' to give, then who's is it to give? And who prepares the places?

And if Jesus being given such power makes him God, then what about God who gave him the power in the first place? Does He retire? Do people stop worshiping the God who Jesus said to pray to?

So many questions, hmm?

reply to post by eight bits

That sounds good, but people who disagree about the christology will manage to disagree about the meanings of the words, too. It's easy to do, since the only way that we the living have to recover the meaning of words from dead langauges is comparison among texts in which the words appear. That's certainly all you'll find in dictionaries and thesauruses. And BTW, "texts" means both secular and sacred texts - wherever the words have been used.

The problem with bringing in any other text is that anybody can present the Jewish texts and present a new idea that Jesus was a charlatan and a son of a whore. Or they could use an atheistic text and dismisses the entire idea of divinity. This would be detrimental to the discussion which is very specific to the Bible.

If we are discussing Christian subjects, such as whether or not Jesus was worshiped as God, its best if we go by the Bible.

Philippians 2: 9ff:
Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That's "worship" even if the word for Lord isn't resolved to the Jewish Adonai.

God himself declared "I will not give my glory to anyone else".
Jesus himself declares that only God is to be worshiped.

Besides, being bestowed great honor does not mean Jesus was to be given Godly worship. Jesus is Gods appointed leader of mankind, so its hardly surprising that He causes men and angels to bend their knees towards him.

The scripture also says Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face and worshiped Daniel.
The scripture also says the synagogue of Satan would worship at feet of the church in revelations 3.
Both instances involved bending of knees... but it does not mean Daniel and the church were Gods, does it? Same applies to Jesus.

As far back as we have records, Christians have worshipped Jesus as God.

Christians "worshiped" Jesus as God, as an act of homage... as the word can also be defined. But you are trying to keep the meaning of the word in question... out of this discussion.

Scorpie

The problem with bringing in any other text is that anybody can present the Jewish texts and present a new idea that Jesus was a charlatan and a son of a whore. Or they could use an atheistic text and dismisses the entire idea of divinity. This would be detrimental to the discussion which is very specific to the Bible.

Why is that a problem? To this very day, there is controversy about who Jesus was, even among those who accept that he lived at all. There are Jewish texts that call him... unkind names. The question is "Was Jesus worshipped as God?" Yes. Not by everybody. So what? Critical texts can help us to understand what behavior was being criticized.

If we are discussing Christian subjects, such as whether or not Jesus was worshiped as God, its best if we go by the Bible.

As I said, if you're using dictionaries and thesauruses, then we're already past "going by the Bible." Further, if we are discussing Christian subjects, a lot of relevant early Chrisitan writing isn't canonical. 1 Clement, for example, is very instructive and nicely placed near the turn of the Second Century. Clement is the bishop of Rome, so certainly his comments on what Christians believed and how they worshipped are relevant to the question you asked.

Protestantism is (partly) sola scriptura. There are no Protestants for more than 1000 years after Nicea, by which point Jesus was definitely being worshipped as God, and had been for a while. If you want to look before Nicea, then you need to lose the pretense that Protestantism is identical with Christianity. It is the minority now, and didn't exist at the time we're discussing.

So, too, "The Bible," which also didn't exist as the canon we know today at the time of Nicea, nor before then, either.

Jesus himself declares that only God is to be worshiped.

Your question was "Was Jesus worshipped as God?" He was or he wasn't worshipped. Turns out that he was worshipped, from the outset. If he had an objection to that, then doctrine (both Christian and Islamic) is that he will have an opportunity to raise the matter at the end of days. Meanwhile, what you asked about has already happened.

The scripture also says Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face and worshiped Daniel.

Daniel is a fictional, apocalyptic work. In any case, Nebbie "fell prostrate" to Daniel. Perhaps that is a pagan worship posture. Jews, whose book this is is, worship on their feet.

If your point is that it is impossible, simply by looking at posture, to tell whether a person is worshipping, showing deference, proposing marriage, or being made a British knight, then I can only agree. So what? Pliny was kind enough to tell us what he found out, and Paul is clear, too. Look at 1 Clement, since I gather you haven't, it's a lot like Pliny.

revelations 3

There is no book in the canonical Bible called "Revelations." At one time, I thought you meant Revelation, but obviously you mean something else. Beats me what that is. Please give the correct cite, and I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

But you are trying to keep the meaning of the word in question... out of this discussion.

Say what? How is what Pliny described not worship; both what he described as appropriate for his gods, and what he described as offered to Jesus by Christians?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Jesus himself declares that only God is to be worshiped.

Hello, that was in response to the demand of Satan to be worshiped by Jesus.
You are taking it out of context and (deceptively?) implying that Jesus was telling others not to worship him.
Jesus accepted all worship directed to him.
He was against worshiping Satan.