Was Oswald really shot?

Originally posted by Rising Against
reply to post by DJW001

 

then exited unrecognized in full view of witnesses.

We all repeatedly forget a simple fact - Oswald became one of the most recognizable faces in America at the point of his death.

He could hide nowhere.. and it's implausible to assume he could/would.

or his whole 'character' could have been created especially for the occasion.
it was a pretty big occasion after all. even easier to disappear then, or re-appear
under a differing guise.
you are ill-informed if you don't think that the faking of deaths (v.i.p., celebrity and others)
doesn't go on, and hasn't always gone on.

your silence on the other matter is very telling. are you so invested in the conspiracy
junk that they have thrown at you that you refuse to consider that it the whole thing might
have been faked in the first place? and this is not just idle speculation. there is copious
amounts of supporting evidence presented to strongly indicate that this is indeed the case.
The Deaths of JFK,
Oswald and Mary Pinchott Meyer Were Staged/Faked/Hoaxed events.

what is your take on 9/11 raising agent, i wonder?
are you aware of just how much fakery went into its making?

is your worldview as it stands so attractive? do you fear cognitive dissonance?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Rising Against

 

We all repeatedly forget a simple fact - Oswald became one of the most recognizable faces in America at the point of his death.

He could hide nowhere.. and it's implausible to assume he could/would.

Nothing a pair of thick glasses, a mustache and a new hairstyle couldn't fix. You saw Oswald shot dead in front of your own eyes, didn't you, so how could the geek with the mustache be him?

stop it DW. you are hurting my brain with all this sensible talk.
we don't hear that kind of stuff here that often, eh rising?

reply to post by OutonaLimb


Ok, first off, your user of the name raising agent.. Well, no, I'm not an agent. I'm a young male from Doncaster England who has an interest in conspiracy theories, particularly the JFK assassination. The fact you're calling me an agent simply because we disagree is very telling of yourself more than I. Period. I suggest you grow up, act your age, and decide to debate logically, something you've yet to achieve at this stage. Ok, we're adults, can we please start acting as such? Thank you.

Secondly, in regards to 9/11 yes I do believe a conspiracy occurred, just as I do in regards to the JFK case. Like all conspiracies though, it's never even close to the extent some claim it to be. Building 7 in particular was an interesting aspect of that case, I think it shows a conspiracy more so than any other part. It's quite obvious once we look right into it as well.

Lastly, In regards to any of these events being actually physically faked.. no, I live in reality and I understand that all of these events happened, I deal with that. Sure, I wish they never, they were awful events, but this is unfortunately the world we live in. To flat out refuse it isn't the way to go either, it's not solving anything.

Originally posted by Rising Against
reply to post by OutonaLimb

 

Ok, first off, your user of the name raising agent.. Well, no, I'm not an agent. I'm a young male from Doncaster England who has an interest in conspiracy theories, particularly the JFK assassination. The fact you're calling me an agent simply because we disagree is very telling of yourself more than I. Period. I suggest you grow up, act your age, and decide to debate logically, something you've yet to achieve at this stage. Ok, we're adults, can we please start acting as such? Thank you.

Secondly, in regards to 9/11 yes I do believe a conspiracy occurred, just as I do in regards to the JFK case. Like all conspiracies though, it's never even close to the extent some claim it to be. Building 7 in particular was a particularly interesting aspect of that case, I think it shows a conspiracy more so than any other part of the case.

Lastly, In regards to any of these events being actually physically faked.. no, I live in reality and I understand that all of these events happened, I deal with that. Sure, I wish they never, they were awful events, but this is unfortunately the world we live in. To flat out refuse it isn't the way to go either, it's not solving anything.

been to doncaster on my way to york. very down to earth people and place was my impressions.

9/11 was a fakery extravaganza.
www.cluesforum.info

and the same people who were at the core of the 9/11 fraud were at the helm
of the JFK production.

just saying that you live in the real world rising against doesn't make
everything real. you have done absolutely nothing to refute any of the myriad
of points presented in the link i gave which indicate that fakery was the name
of the game then, as it still is now.

like 9/11, it is infinitely easier to get large numbers of people to co-operate in
a hoax over a (mass) murder. if you are young and genuine, entertain the possibility of
fakery, exercise your inquisitiveness and take it from there.
if you are young and not genuine, take it no further and rest assured that you, being so young,
know everything there is to know, especially about notions that you won't investigate because
they offend your pre-conceived ideas and deeply held convictions.

what i fool i must be to you. letting my opinions be swayed by direct and
incontrovertible evidence (when pieced together as a whole).

fakery fakery everywhere
and we lap it up.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by broctune

 

Just commenting on the one aspect for now. One shot to the abdomen, at point blank range, would be not just potentially fatal, but in fact is a very difficult wound for doctors to treat. Gut shot is a horrible thing. There aren't really many paths a bullet can take, through the gut, that do not directly compromise major organs. Sepsis and multiple points of internal hemorrhage are common with these wounds.

A single shot, especially point blank - with all of the energy being absorbed by the body, would likely disrupt or take out multiple organs at once.

~Heff

Very astute observation Dr. Heff, now how do we get rid of "tax pain", and don't tell me to sit on a plastic inflatable donut made in china.
Thanks

ETA Nor adult diapers

Let's boil it all the way down to the bones for a moment, shall we? Let's just go, for a moment, with the fakery theory; let's assume it's true.

One simple question...Why?

What strategic, conspiratorial (is that a word?), purpose could have been served by faking LHO's death in the big picture? Why invest the time and effort to stage such an event (forget the technical plausibility for a moment)? Who could have possibly benefited from such a theatrical production? It just doesn't make sense.

Why?

like 9/11, all manner of deep and dark conspiracy rabbit hole exploration sare encouraged but the
whole notion, the big lie, that the events themselves were essentially faked must be
steered clear of at all costs. if that veil is pierced you see, their whole house of cards
comes crashing down as their modus operandi is exposed.

Originally posted by Leuan

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by broctune

 

Just commenting on the one aspect for now. One shot to the abdomen, at point blank range, would be not just potentially fatal, but in fact is a very difficult wound for doctors to treat. Gut shot is a horrible thing. There aren't really many paths a bullet can take, through the gut, that do not directly compromise major organs. Sepsis and multiple points of internal hemorrhage are common with these wounds.

A single shot, especially point blank - with all of the energy being absorbed by the body, would likely disrupt or take out multiple organs at once.

~Heff

Very astute observation Dr. Heff, now how do we get rid of "tax pain", and don't tell me to sit on a plastic inflatable donut made in china.
Thanks

ETA Nor adult diapers

edit on 23-2-2013 by Leuan because: (no reason given)

smoke

versus


no smoke (@0.27secs).

here we have a real versus fake contrast. how contrasting.

letsrollforums.com...

from

letsrollforums.com........see section C.

Originally posted by Flyingclaydisk
Let's boil it all the way down to the bones for a moment, shall we? Let's just go, for a moment, with the fakery theory; let's assume it's true.

One simple question...Why?

What strategic, conspiratorial (is that a word?), purpose could have been served by faking LHO's death in the big picture? Why invest the time and effort to stage such an event (forget the technical plausibility for a moment)? Who could have possibly benefited from such a theatrical production? It just doesn't make sense.

Why?

they have used their own people (club members) to concoct and play-out a situation/simulation
which has allowed them to get to where they are now in terms of their overall agenda.
they have kept the populice in fear for years, rendering them docile and less prone to
stand up, unite and act.
they hoax white people. they kill brown people.
how many countries are left now without a rothchild controlled central bank?
jfk was an insider and was from one of the twelve elite ruling families.

rfk's death was also staged/faked/hoaxed.
www.cluesforum.info...



somebody give that man a hand - with which to cradle rfk's head!!!
rfk was an insider and was from one of the twelve elite ruling families.

it is all theatre folks, and we are the unwitting audience.
high time for us to unsuspend belief.

OUTONALIMB
I was confused at first without the LHO assasination video- I think it's didn't load properly at first.
You are right, and well done
Did they use the same propellant? I suppose thats the real question.
In the assasination, there was no smoke, after watching it a few times.
Wow nice catch

reply to post by Flyingclaydisk

Let's boil it all the way down to the bones for a moment, shall we? Let's just go, for a moment, with the fakery theory; let's assume it's true.

One simple question...Why?

What strategic, conspiratorial (is that a word?), purpose could have been served by faking LHO's death in the big picture? Why invest the time and effort to stage such an event (forget the technical plausibility for a moment)? Who could have possibly benefited from such a theatrical production? It just doesn't make sense.

Why?

Because the trial of Lee Harvey Oswald would have unquestionably been the Trial of the Century. It would have been conducted under the closest media scrutiny ever. If there were details that might have caused public outrage, the political pressure would be impossible to risk. If Oswald were acting as an agent of a foreign power, it could lead to a popular demand for war. Knowing this, the government would want to interrogate Oswald to find out about the apparatus he was working for, and for that, they would need him alive. By faking Oswald's death, the intelligence community could avoid a public trial with its dangerous revelations while preserving Oswald as a source of intelligence. It is one of the few conspiratorial aspects of the affair that actually makes sense.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Flyingclaydisk

 

Let's boil it all the way down to the bones for a moment, shall we? Let's just go, for a moment, with the fakery theory; let's assume it's true.

One simple question...Why?

What strategic, conspiratorial (is that a word?), purpose could have been served by faking LHO's death in the big picture? Why invest the time and effort to stage such an event (forget the technical plausibility for a moment)? Who could have possibly benefited from such a theatrical production? It just doesn't make sense.

Why?

Because the trial of Lee Harvey Oswald would have unquestionably been the Trial of the Century. It would have been conducted under the closest media scrutiny ever. If there were details that might have caused public outrage, the political pressure would be impossible to risk. If Oswald were acting as an agent of a foreign power, it could lead to a popular demand for war. Knowing this, the government would want to interrogate Oswald to find out about the apparatus he was working for, and for that, they would need him alive. By faking Oswald's death, the intelligence community could avoid a public trial with its dangerous revelations while preserving Oswald as a source of intelligence. It is one of the few conspiratorial aspects of the affair that actually makes sense.

Why not just kill him and silence him forever????

Oh wait, someone DID kill him!

Originally posted by Leuan
OUTONALIMB
I was confused at first without the LHO assasination video- I think it's didn't load properly at first.
You are right, and well done
Did they use the same propellant? I suppose thats the real question.
In the assasination, there was no smoke, after watching it a few times.
Wow nice catch

Modern pistol cartridges have been loaded with "smokeless" powder since the late 1800's.

Smokeless Powder

It says it right on the powder can, and yes, I know because I reload.

No conspiracy here.

Was this what you were expecting?



This is a "black powder" pistol, circa 1850. Jack Ruby wasn't using one of these.

reply to post by Flyingclaydisk

Why not just kill him and silence him forever????

Oh wait, someone DID kill him!

What part of "they needed him alive to interrogate him" did you not understand?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Flyingclaydisk

 

Why not just kill him and silence him forever????

Oh wait, someone DID kill him!

What part of "they needed him alive to interrogate him" did you not understand?

Oh, I dunno...what part of 'if they needed him alive then why fake his murder' did you not understand?

Put another way, if they needed to interrogate him away from prying eyes why not spirit him away in the middle of the night to some black site and waterboard him until he sings like a bird? Why would you march him out in public and risk him getting shot?

As I noted earlier, what purpose was served by creating the illusion of his death if you really wanted him alive? And, if by some longshot chance someone did want to create this illusion why would anyone risk it going wrong in a public space like where LHO was shot?

Wouldn't it have been much easier to have just concocted a story about how LHO hung himself with his shoelace in his holding cell??? This way there would have been much less theatrics and far less conspirators. They could have wrapped the whole thing up with the picture of a body hanging from a light fixture in a cell and a newspaper heading of "Lee Harvey Oswald Commits Suicide While in Custody!" Case closed. Why would you risk being outed with such an elaborate charade which could be analyzed frame by frame for decades? Just the sheer number of people who would have needed to be "in on" the job was a risk in and of itself.

Again, makes no sense.

Seems like Occams Razor is in full effect here.

reply to post by Flyingclaydisk

Oh, I dunno...what part of 'if they needed him alive then why fake his murder' did you not understand?

Put another way, if they needed to interrogate him away from prying eyes why not spirit him away in the middle of the night to some black site and waterboard him until he sings like a bird? Why would you march him out in public and risk him getting shot?

As I noted earlier, what purpose was served by creating the illusion of his death if you really wanted him alive? And, if by some longshot chance someone did want to create this illusion why would anyone risk it going wrong in a public space like where LHO was shot?

Wouldn't it have been much easier to have just concocted a story about how LHO hung himself with his shoelace in his holding cell??? This way there would have been much less theatrics and far less conspirators. They could have wrapped the whole thing up with the picture of a body hanging from a light fixture in a cell and a newspaper heading of "Lee Harvey Oswald Commits Suicide While in Custody!" Case closed. Why would you risk being outed with such an elaborate charade which could be analyzed frame by frame for decades? Just the sheer number of people who would have needed to be "in on" the job was a risk in and of itself.

Again, makes no sense.

Seems like Occams Razor is in full effect here.

If he was alive, he would go to trial. If they used "enhanced interrogation," the fact would come out at the trial. If they claimed Oswald hung himself in his cell, even with a picture, even non-conspiracy types would smell a rat. This way everyone in the nation believes him dead because they saw it with their own eyes. If we're going to talk Occam's Razor, why would a two bit hood nightclub owner want to shoot a total stranger? (Incidentally, at the time, they would have had no reason to believe that the live TV footage would ever be viewable again. Not even TV stations had VCRs in those days.)

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Flyingclaydisk

 

If he was alive, he would go to trial. If they used "enhanced interrogation," the fact would come out at the trial. If they claimed Oswald hung himself in his cell, even with a picture, even non-conspiracy types would smell a rat. This way everyone in the nation believes him dead because they saw it with their own eyes. If we're going to talk Occam's Razor, why would a two bit hood nightclub owner want to shoot a total stranger? (Incidentally, at the time, they would have had no reason to believe that the live TV footage would ever be viewable again. Not even TV stations had VCRs in those days.)

Oh, come on now, this is getting silly. If live TV footage wasn't savable, how then does the footage of the shooting exist??? Likely it was recorded on film as well.

The two "two bit nightclub owner" you refer to, Jack Ruby, had more than casual ties with organized crime including allegedly arms running to Cuba in 1959/60. Clearly, Ruby turned out to be somewhat of a bumbling bafoon, but his associatioin with prominent organized crime families is undeniable. The visit while in custody from representatives of the Campisis family is evidence of this. That he turned out to be pretty much a 'tool' and loose cannon made him the perfect patsy to carry out the hit on Oswald. Again, as previously noted, whoever did it was on a one way mission to prison. He might not have thought that himself, but in reality that's what it was. Given his past antics, no matter what he said in prison would be dismissed as not credible. His handlers knew that, and that's why they sent him (inflated ego and all).

LHO wasn't a 'complete stranger' to Ruby, he was the target. Ruby might not have 'known' him, but that doesn't mean he didn't know of him (i.e. had been shown pictures and given descriptions of who, where and when to go find him and kill him).

I think I'm going to disengage from this conversation as it really isn't going anywhere meaningful that I can see.

Originally posted by Flyingclaydisk

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Flyingclaydisk

 

Why not just kill him and silence him forever????

Oh wait, someone DID kill him!

What part of "they needed him alive to interrogate him" did you not understand?

Oh, I dunno...what part of 'if they needed him alive then why fake his murder' did you not understand?

Put another way, if they needed to interrogate him away from prying eyes why not spirit him away in the middle of the night to some black site and waterboard him until he sings like a bird? Why would you march him out in public and risk him getting shot?

As I noted earlier, what purpose was served by creating the illusion of his death if you really wanted him alive? And, if by some longshot chance someone did want to create this illusion why would anyone risk it going wrong in a public space like where LHO was shot?

Wouldn't it have been much easier to have just concocted a story about how LHO hung himself with his shoelace in his holding cell??? This way there would have been much less theatrics and far less conspirators. They could have wrapped the whole thing up with the picture of a body hanging from a light fixture in a cell and a newspaper heading of "Lee Harvey Oswald Commits Suicide While in Custody!" Case closed. Why would you risk being outed with such an elaborate charade which could be analyzed frame by frame for decades? Just the sheer number of people who would have needed to be "in on" the job was a risk in and of itself.

Again, makes no sense.

Seems like Occams Razor is in full effect here.

you are not considering that they were all acting and that you were directed exactly
into the exact conspiracy rabbit hole directions they wanted you to explore/dig into.

because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to them.
put yourself in their shoes. how and why would you fake it?
look back from now to then with your fakery googles on. you will be amazed at the
possibilities that show up.

reply to post by broctune


Of course he was shot, it was on television.

Pulling off a fake assassination of Oswald would be quite a feat, and under the presumption that he was a pawn, it wouldn't be worth the risk of exposure, which in turn would guarantee charges of complicity in the staging of his fake murder as well as JFK's murder. Ruby may well have been convinced by others he could get off on charges of murder or at least get a hugely reduced sentence. After all, Malcolm Wallace got a suspended sentence for his first murder (ala LBJ's doings).

There have been arguments that certain things took place because of a fear for public demand for war if there was foreign involvement in the JFK assassination. There's even quotes from LBJ substantiating the idea itself, but I'm not buying it. Public opinion never has had its finger on the red button. Nuclear release has always been the prerogative of the president and LBJ's "40 million people" comment was bunk. I'm also inclined to believe that the public wouldn't be very anxious to participate in a 'guaranteed mutual destruction' event. I also don't believe that if LBJ or any other government official was convinced that there was foreign involvement in a presidential assassination that they would just sweep it under the carpet with Oswald's death. It would be investigated ruthlessly, because they wouldn't want the world to see how easy it was to off a president. Especially for a turd like LBJ. His actions in the subsequent months were very telling of his role in some really evil doings.

I suppose I couldn't say with certainty that Oswald's death was not faked because I wasn't there with my finger on his pulse, but there are some much stronger arguments out there that he was in fact shot dead by Ruby.