Moors in European Coat Of Arms

reply to post by Astyanax


you sound annoyed, and if so, it was not my intention to provoke that kind of response. rather i am sharing information and exchanging ideas.

if you think i'm claiming some kind of specialist knowledge you'd be very wrong, and i was also more than clear that i'm not suggesting recent african heritage for ancient britons - rather that the picture is not as "white" as has been made out, by luxus, and also re your comment about ancient briton being populated by pale "celts" - i was demonstrating that the earlier mesolithic incomers had their more recent roots coming via the near east rather than simply via spain or even the iron age central euro homeland of the gauls for example.

i get your point re dark ages/medieval lit, but i'm not suggesting it's an open and shut case - in the spirit of the op i'm showing how there is more to the story than some would think and showing how "black" characters are a part of the literary history of britain. it's also worth mentioning though that in cultures with a strong oral tradition and little in the way of invaders, tales can go many generations with only minor changes/mutation along the way prior to being written down. i feel my points still stand

as for Ile Ife you did question it's right to be called a civilisation in an earlier post when by your own admission you had not come across it before, and then later seem to agree, on the basis that it is part of a culture with cities, heirarchies etc etc... so where is the need for argument? i found the place fascinating when learned of it and i thought you may enjoy looking into it too.

ETA: re the african trade links, it's barbary ape bones in ulster that sprung to mind (barry raftery writes about them iirc), and like i said, it's north african, so phoenician or punic is ofc very likely (though they may not be that early, CBA to rifle though boxes of books).... obvs carthage was a pretty multicultural place, polybius supports this iirc, so again it just illustrates the op's point of african and "black" links in british history, which was my point.

reply to post by skalla

you sound annoyed, and if so, it was not my intention to provoke that kind of response.

That's all right. My position on this thread is a delicate one, since I'm trying to walk a safe path between the conflicting political ideologies in it.

the picture is not as "white" as has been made out, by luxus, and also re your comment about ancient briton being populated by pale "celts" - i was demonstrating that the earlier mesolithic incomers had their more recent roots coming via the near east rather than simply via spain or even the iron age central euro homeland of the gauls for example.

Nothing can be as white as Luxus makes out. The point I was making was that the skin colour of ancient migrants to Britain is—and probably forever will be—unknown to us. As it happens, I couldn't care less whether it was black, white or blue. As I said, we're all from Africa in the beginning.

as for Ile Ife you did question it's right to be called a civilisation in an earlier post when by your own admission you had not come across it before, and then later seem to agree, on the basis that it is part of a culture with cities, heirarchies etc etc... so where is the need for argument? i found the place fascinating when learned of it and i thought you may enjoy looking into it too.

Fascinating it may be, but I still question its right to be called a civilisation rather than a culture. However, that is a matter of opinion and we can agree to differ—like the matter of the ancient Britons—since there is not enough known about the subject for anyone to be able to state finally that it was one or the other.

whereismyringfromm.imgur.com...reply to post by Spider879


I have this family ring?? Is this apart of the discussion???

Originally posted by Bitstream2000
whereismyringfromm.imgur.com...reply to post by Spider879

 

I have this family ring?? Is this apart of the discussion???

No but the rings don't tell anything by itself for one thing It's worn down and one would need a Sir name to go along with it.and even if you have a Moor in your families coat of arms you would still need added info to find out if you are a descendant of the Moors turned Christian or it's a religious symbol like the Black Magi Balthazar or St Maurice Christianity's first knight then again they could have gotten it as a reminder of their fighting prowess against the Moors...look up Fairbarns Book of Heraldry with your family name if you are British.

i live in southern portugal n know southern spain very well n theres no black african art,science,architecture here.

moors didnt meant black people.
most of the black people were soldiers not rulers.
there wasnt a moor country or empire.
the knowledge that black people had were arab knowledge not african.

between western european,arab n african,african its almost zero here,wud be a surprise if it wasnt.

probably most of the so called moors that were kicked out wit inquisitation werent even black or arab but white western europeans.

the jewish n the so called moors that stayed were forced to use simbols on their clothes to distinguish them from the rest of the population.the moors didnt hav to use anythin then if they were black.

theres one letter from xv century from part of population of my city,a town that time,to the king of portugal askin him not to tax a moor family in town so high cos they was gud people n always help the soldiers that go to africa fight the "moors"wit food.white moor family.

if the person wasnt muslim then wasnt a moor.arab muslim moor,black muslim moor,white muslim moor.chinese muslim moor.
moor=black or north african black didnt exist.

wasnt about the race or colour.

reply to post by n1000

moors didnt meant black people. most of the black people were soldiers not rulers. there wasnt a moor country or empire. the knowledge that black people had were arab knowledge not african. between western european,arab n african,african its almost zero here,wud be a surprise if it wasnt.

Did you go through the thread?? no where did I made a claim that Moorish culture was exclusively African but they themselves drew upon knowledge gained from Africans called Kemites aka Egyptians improved upon by the Greeks and Roman added to by the Persians..do I really need to go into the Africans kings of Iberia??

oh yeah,please,tell me about the african kings of iberia.
n the moorish culture too.

moors didnt meant black people. most of the black people were soldiers not rulers. there wasnt a moor country or empire. the knowledge that black people had were arab knowledge not african

Ok lets deal with some basic etymology of the term Moor as it pre-dates the Islamic era and is in fact Greek nowadays used as a derogatory term for Blacks.

Greek: from the personal name Mavros, originally a descriptive nickname for a person with a dark or swarthy complexion, Greek mavros ‘black’, ‘Moorish’, later also meaning ‘poor fellow’. This nickname may also be the source of the surname. This element is also commonly found in compound names such as Mavrogiannis ‘black John’. Read more: www.answers.com...

Earlier the Greeks interchange Moor with Ethiops and African keep in mind this was well over a thousand yrs before Moorish conquest.



As far as Iberia is concerned Africans of south of the desert in origin by Dna were living in there from a very early time:

Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea.

In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic. This work also delved into various technical aspects of obtaining authentic ancient DNA and the influence of several variables in the preservation of genetic material. ABSTRACT The origins of the European Populations Studied extensively from Have Been Different disciplines. diposit.ub.edu...

Since you probably read Spanish check out the manuscript by Florian de Ocampo, Cronica General published in Medina del Campo in 1553. The name of the invading general is given as Tarraco. He is not only identified as head of the Ethiopian army. The reference is more specific. It says he was later to become a king of Egypt.

Now the archetype of a Moor was a black right up past the Islamic era and it still survives in some quarters today as meaning a very black person, In the English speaking Caribbean very dark-skinned black person are teased as Blackiemoors by fellow blacks not as dark as they,a term inherited from the English.

As to the African rulers look up the Almoravids they came from the deep south from the mouth of the Senegal river better known today collectively as the Sanhaja or Tuareg, Zanata, Berber, Hausa, Miknasa, Kabylen, Magrawa, Lamtuna, Gaetuler


Abu Bakr of the Almoravid the one riding the camel on his way to pay Mansa Musa the great of Mali a visit and asking support for the conquest of Iberia these were replaced by the Almohades who started in southern Morocco

What Is an Arab

I have read too many instances of some great divide of what an Arab is supposed to be vs Black as if both are mutually exclusive ,first off an Arab is a language group the same as Hispanic, unified mostly by religion and language although there are Christian Arabs and Jews,if you think Arabs like Latinos have one phenotype then you are mistaken and while it is common to refer to visibly recognizable blacks living in Arabia as descendant of slaves,that's simply not true either although African blacks taken as slaves did make up significant part of the black population but there was always been and still is native Blacks in Arabia whose ancestors did not recently came from Africa but were the first Arabians,while it's common to talk of the Black and African slave population most gloss over the White Eurasian slaves and their descendants which was also significant in shaping the present population.

Man from Shibam Hadramout in Yemen
The below is from an Arab site.

Ibn Mandour says that the expression The Red People applies to the non-Arabs because of their whiteness and because of the fact that most of them are fair-skinned. He says that the Arabs used to call the non-Arabs such as the Romans and the Persians and their neighbors, The Red People. He also says that when the Arabs say that someone is white, they mean that he has a noble character--they don't mean that he is white. He says that the Arabs call the slaves The Red People. This is because most of the slaves of the Arabs were white (red).. Al Dhahabi says "Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying '...(He was) a red man as if he is one of the slaves'. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome, and Persia". So it must be understood that what people call "white" today was called "red" by the Arabs of the past. Clik below for more
savethetruearabs.com...

While the above showed great variety of intermingling there were racist attitude among the various groups some of it anti-black some anti-white depending on which group was socially prominent at any given time.

Al-Jahiz (776-869): Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh
(Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites)

Al-Jahiz (in Arabic الجاحظ) (real name Abu Uthman Amr ibn Bahr al-Kinani al-Fuqaimi al-Basri) (born in Basra, c. 781 – December 868 or January 869) was a famous Arab scholar, believed to have been an Afro-Arab of East African descent. He was an Arabic prose writer and author of works on Arabic literature, biology, zoology, history, early Islamic philosophy, Islamic psychology, Mu'tazili theology, and politico-religious polemics.

They say; Al-Ishtiyan the blind man used to say; There are more blacks than whites, more rocks than mud, more sand than soil, more saltwater than sweet water. They say; The Arabs belong with us and not with the whites, because their color is nearer to ours. The Indians are more bronzed than the Arabs, and they belong to the blacks. For the Prophet, God bless and save him, said; I was sent to the red and the black, and everyone knows that the Arabs are not red, as we already have stated above. He said; This advantage belongs to us and to the Arabs, as against the whites, if the Arabs want it. If they do not want it, then the advantage is ours alone against all the rest. The Zanj also say: If we are more numerous because of Zabaj alone we would still be far superior to you because of our merit.
www.assatashakur.org...
For a complete reading of Al Jahiz clk the link

What are the Difference between a Moor and an Arab

A Moor is generally considered to be part of north Western African population as the "Blacks",however they rarely refer to themselves as Moors that was a　term used by Europeans to describe them like I stated above the practice began with the Greeks,they generally go by ethnic or tribal names sometimes under a political designation such as Almoravid /Almohades consisting of various tribes of the Sahara and coastal north Africa.later it became more inclusive to African Muslims but it never lost it's original meaning the "Blacks"

DUARTE BARBOSA
Swahili Civilization The value of Duarte Barbosa's memoirs lie in their picture of the East Coast before the full impact of Portuguese intervention had been felt.
They summarize the knowledge of a man who first saw the coast in 1500 or 1501, and last saw it in 1517 or 1518. (Davidson)

The Moors of Sofala kept these wares and sold them afterwards to the heathen of the Kingdom of Benametapa, who came thither laden with gold which they gave in exchange for the said cloths without weighing it. These Moors collect also great store of ivory which they find hard by Sofala, and this also they sell in the [Indian] Kingdom of Cambay at five or six cruzados the quintal. They also sell some ambergris, which is brought to them from the Hucicas, and is exceeding good. These Moors are black, and some of them tawny; some of them speak Arabic, but the more I part use the language of the country. They clothe themselves from the waist down with cotton and silk cloths, and other cloths they wear over their shoulders like capes, and turbans on their heads. Some of them wear small caps dyed in grain in chequers and other woolen clothes in many tints, also camlets and other silks.

The above are coastal east Africans Kenyans Tanzanians Mozambiquecans generally known as the Swahili they are being described as Moors about a decade after the reconquest by Duarte Barbosa.

An Arab may or may not be black of the Arabian peninsular,may or may not be Islamic now what do I mean by that?

Before the rise of Islam Arabs were "Pagans" Christians and Jews there were conquests of the Arabians by Africans on at-least three occasions apart from any local Black Arabian rule so the picture was quite complex

The Axumite Conquest of Arabia

Emperor Keleb of the Axumite aka Ethiopia conqueror of Arabia

Abraha (also spelled Abreha) (died after AD 553;[1] r. 525—at least 553[2]) also known as 'Abraha al-Ashram (in Arabic أبرهة الأشرم) or Abraha b. as-Saba'h, was an Ethiopian Christian viceroy in southern Arabia for the Kingdom of Aksum, and later became the King of Saba' (Yemen)
Abraha was either one of the commanders or a member of one of the armies led by King Kaleb of Axum against Dhu Nuwas. In al-Tabari's history, 'Abraha is said to have been the commander of the second army sent by Kaléb after the first failed, led by 'Ariat.
Abraha was reported to have led his army of 100,000 men with hundreds of elephants to successfully crush all resistance of the Yemeni army and then, following the suicide of Dhu Nuwas, seized power and established himself at Sana‘a. He aroused the wrath of Kaléb, however, by withholding tribute who then sent his general 'Ariat to take over the governorship of Yemen. 'Abraha rid himself of the latter by a subterfuge in a duel resulting in 'Ariat being killed and 'Abraha suffering the injury which earned him the sobriquet of al-Asräm, "scar-face."
en.wikipedia.org...

So by the time of the invasion of Iberia 711A.D both Arabs and Africans consist of Blackmen although not exclusively so.
At n1000 please take time to read the material provided and not merely skim through it clik the links for added info nothing I have written is unverifiable.

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
Cant be bothered to argue with racists its really sad the way they run around in circles scared of their own shadows. Lets leave them to it. But the Moor culture was fascinating. I have to say..

topdocumentaryfilms.com... Heres a documentory about them.

edit on 20-2-2013 by FreedomEntered because: (no reason given)

Yep, figures. Anytime someone challenges your pro-african anti-everyone else ideals they get called racist.

The claim is that black africans are responsible for pulling Europe out of the dark ages. This is patently false. Any and everything the moors knew, so did Europeans at some location.

Then, somehow you take Moors as meaning black africans. When in fact, you were just as likely (if not more likely) to come across an arab moor than a black african one.

The FACT that Africans invented the BASIS of everything we call civilization and culture is obvious. But to make up a story about how they are continually adding groundbreaking advancements to civilization around the world is totally ridiculous. As the "first people" they would obviously have been the first to invent basic concepts and develop them.

But black africans have not had an impact on Europe anywhere close to what is being suggested in this thread.

This thread is no different than stormfront, it's just BS from the opposite side. They sit around claiming that whites are the best, and spend countless hours twisting history and science to prove this. You are doing the same thing, spinning your own tales with only a sliver of basis in reality to show that black africans are so great and incredible. Your both pathetic.

Anyone that can be honest, and is somewhat knowledgeable about history will know that all races have contributed greatly to civilization as a whole at some point or another. You are simply WRONG about what time and location the black africans made their contributions, and it's shameful to continue pushing this idea. There is enough TRUE things for black africans to be proud of in their history without making stuff up.

But go ahead, be ignorant and call people who disagree with you a racist. Am I a racist because I disagree with you, even though I bash stormfront members and support the idea that all races have made important contributions?

So, so sad.

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
This thread is about moors not druids .. lol omg..

edit on 20-2-2013 by FreedomEntered because: (no reason given)

If this thread is about Moors, why is the central topic about all the wonderful things black africans did for dirty smelly stupid white europeans?

If this thread was truly about the moors, it would have discussed the vast amount of arabs that made up the moors. But did doesn't. They are a footnote to the OP.

And I cannot believe you are unable to understand the very simple reason he brought up the druids, because it proves your theory wrong. Your idea is that africans brought knowledge and culture to europeans. There is ample proof this knowledge and culture existed before the moors. You are being intentionally dense, it's obvious, and it should be shameful to you.

Originally posted by FreedomEntered
Its called being an ignorant racist. They always stick up their ugly heads and derail entire ethnicities.

But its fascinating, what the Moors did. Great people and I hope this gets into schools. Its veeeeeery important in even understanding our current world.

They also do twist history too they are dangerous and they are " outed" . So keep going racists you look dorkier by the second anyway.

edit on 20-2-2013 by FreedomEntered because: (no reason given)

You are being so incredibly dishonest it's not even funny.

This is NOT a thread about the Moors. This is a thread about black africans contributions to europe. You did a piss poor job presenting any information about the moors if that was your goal. You have posted conjecture and outright fantasy about black africans, not really anything about the moors.

Since you love the moors so much, please post some actual information about THEM, you are totally ignoring a huge chunk in favor of africans, yet you deny this is an afrocentric thread.

reply to post by James1982

If this thread is about Moors, why is the central topic about all the wonderful things black africans did for dirty smelly stupid white europeans?

Where in this thread anyone wrote about dirty stupid smelly Europeans stop reading things into it that's not there,but yes as regards to western part of the Islamic empire the Moors were primary the Arabs were secondary and this is irrespective of hue for either,another thing throwing around terms like Afrocentric is a way of labeling things you don't like as so you can dump them without thinking, that's the true dishonesty here.

The term "Dark Ages" used in the OP and the way it is used is a misnomer at best and at worst mostly mythology. We base so many things upon mythology though. I read the OP and a few other posts but mainly see drawing and sculptors with stories made around them. This happens too often, cave drawings, folklore etc.

Originally posted by Malcher
The term "Dark Ages" used in the OP and the way it is used is a misnomer at best and at worst mostly mythology. We base so many things upon mythology though. I read the OP and a few other posts but mainly see drawing and sculptors with stories made around them. This happens too often, cave drawings, folklore etc.

I am perplexed are we reading the same thread??nowhere did I used the term Dark ages and the original point of the thread was the Moors In European Coat Of Arms

Page 1

Is your sir name Moore, Moor,Morrison,Black,Blackman, Blackson,Brown,Sacracen, you might be a decendant of Christianized Moors, not all Black figures that showed up on European coat of Arms are founders of such families,some have that images on the coat of arms because they were fighting the Moors rather than making babies with them,others were an allusion to the divine others were paying homage to St. Maurice the first Knight.But when the Sir names are of the above and connected to the black imagery then that family's founder may well have been a Moor.

All I did was to pointed out the possible connection of folks with the Sir name Moor linked with coat of arms not bringing value judgement on a civilization. I think Am gonna go over to the Rant page and well rant about folks not reading what's actually written but making up stuff from skimming a thread...sigh!!

forget about wat others said about the moors n forget about tribes in north of africa controled by islam.moors in iberic penisula never meant any of that,wasnt any tribe or black or arab or red or white.

the moors was the islam,was the black,was the arab,was the white,was the criminal,was everythin n it was nothin really.

2 kings in iberic penisula fightin eachother for the power.
one of them call for help in north of africa.
help comes.cities in the south of the penisula open their doors for them.they dont want any of the kings,they want to be independent.
the guys that came to help one of the kings take the opportunity,take the cities.doors are opened.
they take almost all of the penisula.the guys who controlled before control only a small part in the north of the penisula.
the moors born in iberic penisula,called by the ones who controlled the north.who was the moors?
everybody that came from north africa and all the population of the iberic penisula who help them.black,arab,white,yellow,mongoloid,catholic,jew,muslim.wasnt exclusive for any race,religion,or tribe.

if we want to look the moors as a race then wat was the race of the majoraty of the moors?the moors were white cos the population was white.
if we want to look the moors as a religion then wat was the religion of the majority of the moors?probably was catholic cos probably the majority of the population was catholic.
if we want to look to the moors as tribe then the moors were a western european tribe,cos the population was western european.

when things started to crumble some moors turned catholic n fight against the moors that came from north africa.if we look at the moors that way then the moors were the berbers that time.

centuries after that,when portuguese and spanish were fightin in north africa,they said they were fightin the moors but even then moors werent exclusive for any race,religion or tribe.moors were everythin that moved against them.

after that some portuguese wanted to build an army and free jerusalem from the moors.moors in jerusalem?!


in the andalus history in iberic penisula,moor its just a pejorative term,nothin more than that really.

theres little african or arab in the dna.in portugal the most african dna come from portuguese colonies in angola,moçambique and cabo verde.

theres almost anythin from that so called moors civilization here.
probably theres more portuguese and spanish from xiv and xv century in north africa than from north africa here.


al andalus shud be where have been till now,not known,a distant memory.cos people dont get it.

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by Malcher
The term "Dark Ages" used in the OP and the way it is used is a misnomer at best and at worst mostly mythology. We base so many things upon mythology though. I read the OP and a few other posts but mainly see drawing and sculptors with stories made around them. This happens too often, cave drawings, folklore etc.

I am perplexed are we reading the same thread??nowhere did I used the term Dark ages and the original point of the thread was the Moors In European Coat Of Arms

Page 1

Is your sir name Moore, Moor,Morrison,Black,Blackman, Blackson,Brown,Sacracen, you might be a decendant of Christianized Moors, not all Black figures that showed up on European coat of Arms are founders of such families,some have that images on the coat of arms because they were fighting the Moors rather than making babies with them,others were an allusion to the divine others were paying homage to St. Maurice the first Knight.But when the Sir names are of the above and connected to the black imagery then that family's founder may well have been a Moor.

All I did was to pointed out the possible connection of folks with the Sir name Moor linked with coat of arms not bringing value judgement on a civilization. I think Am gonna go over to the Rant page and well rant about folks not reading what's actually written but making up stuff from skimming a thread...sigh!!

edit on 15-5-2013 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)

You used the term "Dark Ages" in your OP and it was used many other times. The term, specifically as it is used here is not accurate.

Even WaterBottle in the third post stated (paraphrasing) "The Moors pulled Europe out of the Dark Ages". If we were to look at it that way then the whole world was in a "dark age". Even still, much of what gets perpetuated about the European so called "Dark Ages" is exaggerated.

oh have you seen benedict XVI coat of arms and the moor head in there?

reply to post by Malcher

You used the term "Dark Ages" in your OP and it was used many other times. The term, specifically as it is used here is not accurate. Even WaterBottle in the third post stated (paraphrasing) "The Moors pulled Europe out of the Dark Ages". If we were to look at it that way then the whole world was in a "dark age". Even still, much of what gets perpetuated about the European so called "Dark Ages" is exaggerated.

I'll have to go over the thread to see If that's the case but if I did use it was most likely in a quote but I agree Dark ages really is not apt I usually am not judgmental about folks mode of living so i'll look for it in quotes I made.