The Vanity of Enlightenment

And here is my favorite Buddhist quote from 1 Corinthians 13. It also sums up Enlightenment nicely


If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

reply to post by Wang Tang


Your logic is faulty.

You state that the Universe is a FACT....yet even though you state that the definition of "Universe" is all that exists...as well as state that the definition of the word "Universe" is ever evolving and we do not yet know the true extent or parameters of our Universe and thus do not yet know what the set definition of the word :Universe" will be.

These statements are self contradicting as in order for you to state the "Universe" is a FACT...what EXACTLY has been determined as a fact is in your own words..."Not Set".

The Reality is that the closest set acceptable definition that would define our Universe that we are a part has been determined by our observations using the Hubble Space Telescope which allows us to visually see the very end or edge of our Universe some 13.4 Billion Light Years distant where lies the WMAP which is a wall of background radiation existing at a distance within 379,000 Light Years of the Big Bang. At this point we can see no further as an Ocean of superheated Plasma impedes light's progress.

This gives us a very clear picture of the size and parameters of our known Universe. At a distance 379,000 Light Years there lies the moment of the Big Bang and thus the moment of our Universe's creation which the barrier that is the WMAP's Background Radiation of Superheated Plasma...visable in all directions away from us...blocks from our veiw.

Here is the thing...the existence of Quantum Particle/Wave Forms and Quantum Mechanics gives great possibility of proof to the existence of a Multiverse. It also along with the such evidence as the existence of Psychics...proven 100% REAL by such agencies as the FBI, CIA, NSA, Various State's Law Enforcement as well as many other nations agencies...the behavior of Photons shown by the Double Slit experiment...as well as how Photons and Electrons exist as both Particle and Wave...and how Quarks are known to Blink IN AND OUT of our Universal Existence....are just SOME of the strong evidence for the REALITY OF A MULTIVERSE.

There is FAR GREATER an amount of evidence supporting the existence of a MULTIVERSE and INFINITE DIVERGENT UNIVERSAL REALITIES where although the Universes are FINITE...there is an INFINITE number of these Divergent Universal Realities within each specific Group in which all have the same Universal Physics....as well as there being INFINITE NUMBERS OF SUCH GROUPS within the Multiverse.

Split Infinity

reply to post by AllIsOne


Enlightenment, to my understanding, is not solely concerned with love and hope. To be solely concerned with these things is to have passed judgment on all other things as being unworthy of experience. This is not so. Both love and hate have lessons to teach, both hope and despair have their moment to shine, and both faith and doubt have their place in the circle of life.

To tell yourself that love is the key to enlightenment, to me, is folly. Because then you miss the opportunities intended to make such wine all the more sweeter, and to give such light all the more depth. Everything has a value. The value you see in them is determined by the scope of your vision - and if you are blinded by what you think you know, then you will have difficulty learning true value.

This is my understanding in the subject.

reply to post by InTheLight

It would cause me more than a slight twinge if I realized I was biased.

Yet another person who ignores the majority of the post to focus on that which they perceive to be the easiest fodder for false wisdom. Don't bother posting in answer to me or using my posts for material if you aren't going to treat me fairly in the process. Thank you.

reply to post by Serdgiam


Thank you for that thoughtful post. It's amazing that it took this long for someone to actually put some effort in and not sound like they were getting their answers from a fortune cookie. I think this thread serves little purpose for me now except to bewail the fate of wisdom. Certainly, it has no roots here.

I hope to see you in more fertile pastures.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion

 

What motivates you to care that others don't care the way you think they should?

There's a song I know that phrases it quite well:

If everyone cared and nobody cried,
If everyone loved and nobody lied,
If everyone shared and swallowed their pride
we'd see the day...that nobody died...

Perhaps I am biased in some way, but I don't believe that I am wrong for wanting to see those lyrics fully realized in this world.

Hmm. That seems like an odd thing for a "part Taoist" who considers that "both good and evil are very necessary in this world" to say. Where's the balance those lyrics? Where's the shadow?

"Candle and the shadow, you know." -AfterInfinity

But I guess that only goes so far, eh? Its not for enlightened people. It's not for God. No, so-called enlightened people can only be the "candle" of humility and puppydogs and polite manners. Heaven forbid they should accept and integrate their shadow-self. They just can't be amoral. They can't be hedonistic. They can't be rude. They can't be womanizers. They can't party with tax collectors and whores. They can't transcend social conditioning.

They can't get frustrated with ignorant fools and their trolling, their double-standards, their stereotypes, their disingenuous traps, their transparent modesty games, their posturing.

No, they have to be "candle" 24/7.

Here is something you should know about enlightened people. We embody coincidentia oppositorum. Candle and shadow, you know? Or maybe you don't really know. Maybe you just talk the talk.

"Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." -Morpheus

But hey, it's all good. Everything is as it should be. Even the shadow.

reply to post by BlueMule

Hmm. That seems like an odd thing for a "part Taoist" who considers that "both good and evil are very necessary in this world" to say. Where's the balance those lyrics? Where's the shadow?

"Candle and the shadow, you know." -AfterInfinity

Easy answer for that. There is no balance here. I want the world to have one day of real peace so that they can see life is not all competition and hostility. My dreams are part of working towards balance, because if you actually read my post in any of these threads, I state quite clearly that the goal of having shadow around is to give value to the flame. Without the shadow, the candle is taken for granted. Well, I think we've gotten the point now. Or at the very least, without more flame, we'll never get the point because we'll never realize what that flame can be. Let's shift the focus to spreading light and find out, shall we?

But I guess that only goes so far, eh? Its not for enlightened people. It's not for God. No, so-called enlightened people can only be the "candle" of humility and puppydogs and polite manners. Heaven forbid they should accept and integrate their shadow-self. They just can't be amoral. They can't be hedonistic. They can't be rude. They can't be womanizers. They can't party with tax collectors and whores. They can't transcend social conditioning.

They can't get frustrated with ignorant fools and their trolling, their double-standards, their stereotypes, their disingenuous traps, their transparent modesty games, their posturing.

No, they have to be "candle" 24/7.

Do you always answer your own questions? Last I knew, your username was not AfterInfinity, whom you directed your question to. See above for my actual answer instead of scorning what you imagine it to be.

Here is something you should know about enlightened people. We embody coincidentia oppositorum. Candle and shadow, you know? Or maybe you don't really know. Maybe you just talk the talk.

"Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." -Morpheus

But hey, it's all good. Everything is as it should be. Even the shadow.

Smooth words coming from someone who isn't enlightened. But hey, I'm not enlightened either, so it's all good. But you know how I know you're not enlightened? Because you're a lot like me.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Hmm. That seems like an odd thing for a "part Taoist" who considers that "both good and evil are very necessary in this world" to say. Where's the balance those lyrics? Where's the shadow?

"Candle and the shadow, you know." -AfterInfinity

Easy answer for that. There is no balance here. I want the world to have one day of real peace so that they can see life is not all competition and hostility. My dreams are part of working towards balance, because if you actually read my post in any of these threads, I state quite clearly that the goal of having shadow around is to give value to the flame. Without the shadow, the candle is taken for granted. Well, I think we've gotten the point now. Or at the very least, without more flame, we'll never get the point because we'll never realize what that flame can be. Let's shift the focus to spreading light and find out, shall we?

There is no balance here? It doesn't sound like you're working toward balance to me. It sounds like you're just posturing and playing one-upmanship games. Let's shift focus to denying ignorance, shall we?

Do you always answer your own questions? Last I knew, your username was not AfterInfinity, whom you directed your question to. See above for my actual answer instead of scorning what you imagine it to be.

Do you always find a way to brush-off things people say that you don't like? You brush-off evidence, you brush-off scholarship, and you brush-off the voice of mystical experience.

Smooth words coming from someone who isn't enlightened. But hey, I'm not enlightened either, so it's all good. But you know how I know you're not enlightened? Because you're a lot like me.

Yeah, we are a lot alike because enlightened people are people too. Surprise!

Except for the whole ego-death and rebirth thing. But I guess you didn't have a real good view of that from behind your computer desk so how could you possibly know. So it's pure arrogance that makes you think you know when someone is enlightened or not. When are you going to free people from the oppression of your stereotypes?

reply to post by BlueMule

There is no balance here? It doesn't sound like you're working toward balance to me. It sounds like you're just posturing and playing one-upmanship games. Let's shift focus to denying ignorance, shall we?

How have I given you that impression? As the one claiming to be enlightened, perhaps you can show me what to do.

Do you always find a way to brush-off things people say that you don't like? You brush-off evidence, you brush-off scholarship, and you brush-off the voice of mystical experience.

You don't have evidence, you have opinions. You attack me whenever I post something that calls your integrity or status into question. You're doing it right now. Instead of attacking me, prove to me that I should believe you.

Yeah, we are a lot alike because enlightened people are people too. Surprise!

I'm not enlightened. I'm not even 30 yet, how can I say I am enlightened?

Except for the whole ego-death and rebirth thing. But I guess you didn't have a real good view of that from behind your computer desk so how could you possibly know.

From behind my computer desk? I have admitted to not being enlightened. I have admitted it is a hobby and not a career for me. How did you become enlightened from behind your computer desk?

So it's pure arrogance that makes you think you know when someone is enlightened or not. When are you going to free people from the oppression of your stereotypes?

I am not judging or stereotyping, I am observing. It is not my fault if you feel attacked by my observations. Perhaps that's a sign.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by AllIsOne

 

Enlightenment, to my understanding, is not solely concerned with love and hope. To be solely concerned with these things is to have passed judgment on all other things as being unworthy of experience. This is not so. Both love and hate have lessons to teach, both hope and despair have their moment to shine, and both faith and doubt have their place in the circle of life.

To tell yourself that love is the key to enlightenment, to me, is folly. Because then you miss the opportunities intended to make such wine all the more sweeter, and to give such light all the more depth. Everything has a value. The value you see in them is determined by the scope of your vision - and if you are blinded by what you think you know, then you will have difficulty learning true value.

This is my understanding in the subject.

May I ask you how old you are? This is not a trick question. I'm just curious.

Ah, I just saw your answer in another post.

Well my friend, I predict you have some experiences ahead of you that will give you a different outlook. I truly hope I'll be around for another twenty years to have a discussion with you then so we can compare notes. Time is the greatest teacher of all. And I also hope you will have found what you don't believe to exist at this point.

Be well!

Good discussion.

I just spent the last two nights sleeping on a beach under the stars. I didn't become enlightened but I did play the bongo drums around a fire.

We should remember that enlightenment—if it does exist—isn't found on the internet, but in life, nature and in oneself. Let's go outside and continue that search.

I like the term, The World better than the universe. The we encompasses everything, all the verses, all dimensions.

We are all part of the world, we are all one and we are all seperate and unique. All with a tiny sliver of the one true God. We all play out part, so why claim to have some superior understanding of it all.

Enjoy the world, and be thankful you are a part of it, playing out our roles.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Good discussion.

I just spent the last two nights sleeping on a beach under the stars. I didn't become enlightened but I did play the bongo drums around a fire.

We should remember that enlightenment—if it does exist—isn't found on the internet, but in life, nature and in oneself. Let's go outside and continue that search.

Was this whole thread, from the original post down to the one I'm responding to right now, just one big test?

I am an Opportunity to appreciate you.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


To be enlightened one must lighten up "maryhinge"

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

Good discussion.

I just spent the last two nights sleeping on a beach under the stars. I didn't become enlightened but I did play the bongo drums around a fire.

We should remember that enlightenment—if it does exist—isn't found on the internet, but in life, nature and in oneself. Let's go outside and continue that search.

Was this whole thread, from the original post down to the one I'm responding to right now, just one big test?

If it was a test - do you think you passed or failed?

reply to post by Itisnowagain

If it was a test - do you think you passed or failed?

That is not for me to judge, as I am a biased party and I don't even know what the answers are.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


What makes you think it was a test? It was you who asked 'is it a test?' - what sort of test?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

We should remember that enlightenment—if it does exist—isn't found on the internet, but in life, nature and in oneself. Let's go outside and continue that search.

How would you know where it is? Didn't you say that you couldn't find it.

Enlightenment cannot be 'found'.