Does God love everyone? Westboro says NO

reply to post by AfterInfinity


First of all, that's a straw man. We don't go to either heaven or hell for serving or refusing to serve God. Secondly, it would be quite immoral for God to force people who don't like Him, don't enjoy His presence, and would hate worshipping Him to spend eternity in His Kingdom where all those things will be happening perpetually.

Now, hell would be a "consequence" of a free will choice. Consequences are the results of choices. All choices have consequences.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


He created man perfect. "The cancer of mankind" as you put it is a result of the fall. Man's free will choice to rebel and disobey God. God knew man would do this and made provision for it to be forgiven, it's a free pardon, all one has to do is ask.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Totalitarianism??

Totalitarian leaders don't offer their subjects choices.

Yes they do. It varies from empire to empire, but generally, the biggest choice is: do as I say and live, or refuse to accommodate my desires and be killed/imprisoned. Or in this case: "serve me or go to hell - literally."

edit on 11-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

You have that one SPOT ON. Or Salome will convince Herod Antipas to behead you just for fun (mistaken identity John the Babtist) No! I was just the belly dancing hooker; sleeping with your wife.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

First of all, that's a straw man. We don't go to either heaven or hell for serving or refusing to serve God.

You love to throw the term "strawman" around, don't you?

It's not anything "strawman", unless you consider the Bible to be a "strawman" book, because it clearly says that anyone who does not ally his/herself with "God" is condemned.

Secondly, it would be quite immoral for God to force people who don't like Him, don't enjoy His presence, and would hate worshipping Him to spend eternity in His Kingdom where all those things will be happening perpetually.

Yes, you would think so, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, neither the OT or the NT see it that way.

Now, hell would be a "consequence" of a free will choice. Consequences are the results of choices. All choices have consequences.

Yes, the choice I outlined in my previous post. To serve, or not to serve...that is the question. And according to most Christians, your afterlife very much depends on your answer and how thoroughly you follow through.

I'm interested in the fact that you haven't posted a single line of scripture to support your statements. Is there a reason for this?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

He created man perfect. "The cancer of mankind" as you put it is a result of the fall. Man's free will choice to rebel and disobey God. God knew man would do this and made provision for it to be forgiven, it's a free pardon, all one has to do is ask.

Small itsy teeny problem here. When I ask to be forgiven, will it be a Hallmark Card greeting in the mail or FEDEX red roses sent to my address for notification. You are saying that I being a human can forego all notion of a Father forgiveness (what a hassle to contemplate) and go myself ambulatory to Walmart buy forgiveness found in aisle 6 and send myself an I Love You card? So although I have to pay for everything I am pardoned? Meaning being, I am a piece of God Creator, so what is the point of the dance.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

You love to throw the term "strawman" around, don't you?

Only when it applies.

because it clearly says that anyone who does not ally his/herself with "God" is condemned.

Chapter and verse?

Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by logical7
Let me point out cancer deaths, God adviced to eat good and pure food, we now get stuffed with artificial preservatives, colouring agents, chemicals and hormones and they are allowed till they are 'below' toxic levels. I dont think you'l take a sip of a poison everyday just because its only fatal if you down the whole bottle at once.
Who do you hold responsible for deaths due to this?

Are you saying people that die of cancer die because of their diet?

So anyone that dies of cancer has only themselves to blame?

Really?

Are you a member of WBC?....

you are assuming a lot. I am just trying to show that not following a simple divine advice can cause harm in the long run. I am not blaming anyone, a non-smoker can get lung cancer too. I am just saying it is an outcome of a heedless life where almost everyone doesnt really care what they put into their bodies by eating, breathing etc, many dont even have another choice. It is a collective fault of many. My question was directed to AfterInfinity as to whom he blames for those deaths and why, they must be collectively more than the houlocausts yet he had wanted God to interfere/(blames) in them so would he blame God again for not keeping the diet and enviromental factors pure to prevent cancer deaths?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

According to your assertion, his lack of evil would have prevented him from creating such, which implies another equally powerful force created evil. I say equally powerful because if it hadn't been, "God" would surely have crushed it before it had the chance to create anything. Try another lie.

according to this theory of yours there's actually no chance of good ever winning unless good has an inherent advantage and that can only happen if it all was created that way and that would imply that God is biased towards truth & good.
Either that or we are doomed in a tug of war where nothing changes for the better!
I believe this:

(21:16) We did not create in sport the heavens and the earth and all that lies between the two. (21:17) Had it been Our will to find a
pastime, We would have found one near at hand; if at all We were inclined to do so.
(21:18) Nay, We hurl the Truth at falsehood so that the Truth crushes falsehood, and lo! it vanishes. Woe to you for what you utter!
(21:19) To Him belongs whosoever dwells in the heavens and on earth. Those (angels) that are with Him neither disdain to serve Him out of pride, nor do they weary of it.
(21:20) They glorify Him night and day, without flagging.
(21:21) Have they taken earthly gods who are such that they raise up the dead to life?
(21:22) Had there been any gods in the heavens and the earth apart from Allah, the order of both the heavens and the earth would have gone to ruins. Glory be to Allah, the Lord of the Throne, Who is far above their false descriptions of Him.

i hope this gives a clear answer to your doubts.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

The logical conclusion is that mankind is flawed because "God" is flawed...but he would much rather profess to be perfect because no one is smart enough to prove otherwise, except for select members of ATS. This omniscience and omnipotence thing is terribly inconvenient. It smacks down every available excuse. So sorry, Mr God, but it looks like you have NO ALIBI AND NO DEFENSE.

maybe there is another better explanation. When two 'wills' collide there always will be friction.
If in a band every player plays their own instrument at 'free will' it would be a disaster and just 'noise' but if they 'bow' to the will of a composer then there will be 'music' (ofcourse only if composer is good!)
what we see in the world is 'noise' because many in the world and even some here on ATS refuse to get 'in tune' and want to play their self assumed 'great compositions'!!!

reply to post by AfterInfinity

At least in sports, if you lose, you get to walk away and try again some other day. It shows that you have improvements to make, and you can choose whether to improve or be satisfied. And no one holds it against you, because that's your decision. THAT is free will. Not what you're talking about. I don't understand what the point of having free will is if you're just going to be punished for doing what you want. So try again. If you're going to sell me crap, make it worthwhile.

let me put it in a way that makes sense, you are only being asked to give up the part of free will that will restrict or harm someone else's free will and in that i think you have no problem.
Even in sports you have rules if you dont respect them forget about winning or losing, you'l be disqualified!
In a sport you dont suggest the authority incharge that you will learn the 'rules' while playing by trial & error. Try that and see!!!
Yet in life you are demanding exactly that, i am not saying its wrong per se but it is impractical as maybe you'l not do much harm based on your level of understanding of right and wrong but if everyone is given that freedom by default then it would be a disaster.(you can actually have a good idea by seeing the world now)
The other part you have a trouble with is acknowledging God as God. Its very personal. You refuse to accept that anyone can just tell you what to do. You rather want to know why and would do it only when it makes sense which is great.
You do also realise yourself that you have limited knowledge & comprehension as you do seek experts like doctors, lawyers, professors etc and trust them (at least partially)
Its the question of similar trust in God as an expert except here you can completely trust because God doest really need anything from you like earthly experts. Which could be offensive if you take it wrongly. You need God, God doesnt need you. This is a personal issue where independence is your highest priority but you are lying, you are not independed ever! think, oxygen, water, food etc!!! So you have two choices either believe their is no God and enjoy the free oxygen as an atheist or accept God as Creator of it all and let go the false idea of complete independence!

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I'm interested in the fact that you haven't posted a single line of scripture to support your statements. Is there a reason for this?

Are you criticising me for not doing something you likewise haven't done?

If so, that's special pleading.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Are you criticising me for not doing something you likewise haven't done?

If so, that's special pleading.

That's a good point. Very well, I will prove that evil is a creation, and that "God" created it. Assuming the Bible is a true authority, of course.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

reply to post by logical7

yes, thats my point. How will religion A poach a member from religion B if both contain hell? By telling my hell is hotter? How can A convert with fear of hell if their is an equal fear of being in hell of B if B is left. The factor of Hell cancels out. Right?

No... said fear of Hell still exists

You can't cancel that fear with another version of the same myth

look at God as a mirror, would you stand infront of God and point at Him and say "egomaniac terrorist"?
The accounts you read to judge Him were written by 'egomaniacs' doesnt make him that.
Hell is a natural consequence of doing wrong, unless there is remorse. Removing it is a implied invitation to do wrong.

Hell isn't a natural consequence of doing wrong.... It is a fabricated myth to strike fear in to the hearts of men...

Removing said fear does not give an invitation to sin... there is still consequences for peoples actions or lack there of... but its not Hell. Unless one considers Hell to be what we create for ourselves...

Actually conversion tactic is to promise to save from it or say its a myth.

Considering as you say.... "most religions have a belief in hell"... How is calling it a myth a conversion tactic?

You're lacking in logic sir... yet isn't that your name here?

people who are better dont need fear of hell to be good but not all are that smart or spiritual. Until everyone learns the golden rule of prophets 'do to others what you want to be done to you' deeply enough.

Agreed...

Hell is needed to make sure that it doesnt let "all hell break out" on earth.

Wrong...

Hell is needed by spiritual so called "authorities" because they lack understanding of spirituality...

A threat is not needed...... Only understanding

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Are you criticising me for not doing something you likewise haven't done?

If so, that's special pleading.

That's a good point. Very well, I will prove that evil is a creation, and that "God" created it. Assuming the Bible is a true authority, of course.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

I'm so tired of reading this argument. Its a false one. The Hebrew term used there which centuries ago got translated to "evil", means "calamity". I.e. earthquakes, hurricanes, et cetra.

What you must know about English is that it's a very very lazy language. Hebrew and Greek are extremelly precise and colorful. Examples, there are 5 different Greek words for "love", all with different meanings. And in Hebrew, there are 7 different types of praise, all different, that in English just appear as "praise".

Here:

First of all, the Hebrew word for evil, "rah," is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," "misery," and "trouble." So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV.

Isaiah 45:7.

reply to post by Akragon

No... said fear of Hell still exists You can't cancel that fear with another version of the same myth

you claimed its used as conversion tactic. That can only be used who dont know about hell yet.

Hell isn't a natural consequence of
doing wrong.... It is a fabricated myth
to strike fear in to the hearts of men...

thats your believe, you see the efffect and judge it as bad and hence assume the cause must be a myth
its very similar to atheist denying God by watching effects of religion.

Considering as you say.... "most
religions have a belief in hell"... How is
calling it a myth a conversion tactic?

its simple, it appeals to the desire of people. How consumerism works? People want an easy religion they choose an easy one.

A threat is not needed...... Only
understanding

thats what i said, threat is need till universal understanding and you agreed.
It is not necessarily a control tactic, it can be misused just like God can, how does that justification deny either, you dont know if hell exist or not, you choose to believe its a myth by finding a justification. You think its a myth because it seems extreme and you think "how can God do that to someone"

reply to post by logical7

you dont know if hell exist or not, you choose to believe its a myth by finding a justification. You think its a myth because it seems extreme and you think "how can God do that to someone"

Do you believe God is love?

Logically... A loving Father would not condem his child to such a place... Thus said myth does not exist...

Of course you also believe in the OT... so I can understand why you would not believe God to be a loving merciful creator

reply to post by Akragon


God doesn't "send" anyone to Hell, that's a consequence of our sin. I'll tell you what a loving God does do. He provides a free was out of redemption for anyone who asks. Respecting no person, poor/rich, Jew/Gentile.

Jesus Himself said there was no greater show of love than for someone to die for their friends. And God sent His Son to die for all men.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

you dont know if hell exist or not, you choose to believe its a myth by finding a justification. You think its a myth because it seems extreme and you think "how can God do that to someone"

Do you believe God is love?

Logically... A loving Father would not condem his child to such a place... Thus said myth does not exist...

Of course you also believe in the OT... so I can understand why you would not believe God to be a loving merciful creator

you are assuming my belief. I believe God is very Merciful. Qur'an starts with that. "In the name of Allah, The Extremely Merciful, The Especially Merciful". Maybe you should look at it by another point of view.
Can God tolerate injustice?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


He already said that...

I maintain that hell is a myth...

And before you start quoting Jesus for proof of its existence... The usual "is Jesus a liar" routine...

Yes he mentioned hell... but I don't believe he meant what Christians believe about hell...