Jesus(pbuh) dint knew the 'HOUR'!(Judgement day)

reply to post by Joecroft


Proverbs

30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

this is just a poetic way of saying "Nobody" and then the name of one who can do is asked and if not his name then the name of a decendant who is alive to testify that the impossible feat was done, its just sarcasm used while praying to the One true God.
About the verse in Matthew 20, is there the same quote by Jesus pbuh recorded by other gospel writers? It seems an important one and all were present.
Also regarding historical accounts, if it was "made to appear" according to what Qur'an says, then obviously it would be accounted that way.

reply to post by Joecroft

You need to ask yourself some critical questions here. Why does Jesus, unlike all the other prophets, have power to turn clay into a birds, or heal the sick, or manifest food out of thin air, or walk on water, know the future, claim to speak on the Fathers behalf etc etc etc…And what kind of a prophet, tells people, that the only way to the Father, is through Him, what kind of prophet, would say such a thing, or have those kinds of powers.

Prophets did miracles and God is creative, it would be boring to do same things, Abraham pbuh cut birds to pieces, kept them away on a mountain and called and they came. All prophets know a bit of future, Abraham pbuh knew about Jesus pbuh, Jesus pbuh & Muhammad pbuh prophecies future event and signs of judgement daz and what miracle is impossible if the prophet is backed by God!?
Qur'an tells about a prophet for whom God made a pregnant she camel appear from a rock like it was an egg as a sign for the people that he is a prophet indeed.

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by Logical7
one of the meaning of Messiah is "he lives" not "he resurrects"
Jews reject Jesus pbuh as Messiah because they say he died as you read in the Ayahs of Qur'an. (they claimed "we killed him")
maybe you need to rethink what difference it makes to you if Jesus pbuh is a Messiah and Prophet or more as you claim.

Jesus was resurrected by the Father, just like the Gospels say…And I’ve already given you various historical accounts, which recorded his death by crucifixion.

Originally posted by Logical7
You would not do any wrong if you just worship God, i dont think Jesus pbuh would mind, he actually says in Bible and Qur'an, "worship my Lord and your Lord".

Please understand, I don’t worship The Son, because The Son points us towards the Father God. But I do honor the Son, because I know what He is spiritually speaking. But the thing is, Jesus spoke on Gods behalf, and God commanded all of us, to go through his Son, to come to the Father.

Originally posted by Logical7
The "I Am" part also is a doubt, maybe you should see the hebrew/aramaic text, what if something got lost in translation.

But there are other verses which Jesus spoke which corroborate the “I Am” aspect. You can start with John 10:36. Seriously, you need a much better counter argument, than this.

Originally posted by Logical7
It could easily mean "i am Messiah" he was just answering the people how he knew that Abraham pbuh was glad to know the future time during Jesus pbuh. So simply saying before Abraham was i am Messiah and he knew it.

So let me get this straight, your argument is that Jesus in that verse is saying…“before Abraham was, I AM Messiah“

That’s an absolutely pathetic argument…the sentence wouldn’t then even make any grammatical sense…

- JC

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by Joecroft
30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Originally posted by Logical7
this is just a poetic way of saying "Nobody" and then the name of one who can do is asked and if not his name then the name of a decendant who is alive to testify that the impossible feat was done, its just sarcasm used while praying to the One true God.

Again, that’s a completely ridiculous argument. The verse is clearly talking about the Creator of the Universe and everything in it i.e. the one true God, except instead of just asking what His name is, he also asks, what the name of His Son is; thereby bringing The Son in, as a Creator also.

To use your own words…“you are disagreeing because of your belief.”

There are many other references to Jesus, in the Old Testament, that I could quote.

Here’s just a few key verses…

Proverbs 8:22-36

“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.
36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”

The person speaking through these verses is Jesus, The Son God. Which is why He states, that whoever finds Him, receives favor from the Lord.

Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

This Son of God figure, actually makes an appearance to Daniel, a few chapters later, and this is actually where “The Son of Man” phrase comes from. And of course Jesus actually refers to himself, as “The Son of Man”….coincidence…I don’t think so…

Daniel 7:13
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

And in case you didn’t know, “The Ancient of Days”, is one of God the Fathers, many names…

And the next line from the same verse…

Daniel 7:14
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

HE i.e. The Son of Man was given authority, glory and power. Note the word “given” i.e. given by God the Father God…And remember Jesus said that He was the Son of Man, in the scriptures.

Originally posted by Logical7
About the verse in Matthew 20, is there the same quote by Jesus pbuh recorded by other gospel writers? It seems an important one and all were present.
Also regarding historical accounts, if it was "made to appear" according to what Qur'an says, then obviously it would be accounted that way.

Same question to you. Is there another verse in the Quran, which states that Jesus was not crucified?

You see the problem is, is that your trying to negate one piece of evidence to fit that Quran verse. But there are at least 15 to 20 pieces of evidence, (possibly more) which all suggest Jesus was crucified. There are even Gnostic texts, not included in the Bible, which can be used as further evidence, to show that Jesus was most likely crucified. You see, in order to prove that Quran verse correct, you are going to have to overturn more evidence, than Just the one verse, in Matthew 20! Good Luck!

- JC

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by Logical7
Prophets did miracles and God is creative, it would be boring to do same things, Abraham pbuh cut birds to pieces, kept them away on a mountain and called and they came.

All prophets know a bit of future, Abraham pbuh knew about Jesus pbuh, Jesus pbuh & Muhammad pbuh prophecies future event and signs of judgement daz and what miracle is impossible if the prophet is backed by God!?

Qur'an tells about a prophet for whom God made a pregnant she camel appear from a rock like it was an egg as a sign for the people that he is a prophet indeed.

Ok, so a few prophets collectively, did an occasional miracle, in their entire life spans. But that in no way! can compare to Jesus, who is performing miracle after miracle, on a daily basis, assuming you accept the Gospels accounts.

Based on your replies so far, you seem to be just making ill thought out excuses, to my posts. You are either blind to seeking the truth, or you just don’t care.

Seriously, if your next reply doesn’t improve, then this conversation is over!


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

So let me get this straight, your argument is that Jesus in that verse is saying…“before Abraham was, I AM Messiah“ That’s an absolutely pathetic argument…the sentence wouldn’t then even make any grammatical sense…

maybe that happens when you read translations, thats the reason i asked we should know the original quote as you know that english is a very poor language when it comes to specific.
The example is a famous anti-islamic idea that Qur'an tells us not to have christians & jews as friends. Qur'an has more than 5 different type of friends and uses different words, english uses the same word at all places. It says not to have them as secret keepers/intimate trustworthy protectors and the context is when they were at war with muslims. So refer originals before blindly believing. Right?

reply to post by Joecroft

The verse is clearly talking about the Creator of the Universe and everything in it i.e. the one true God, except instead of just asking what His name is, he also asks, what the name of His Son is; thereby bringing The Son in, as a Creator also.

even if i grant that the verse talks about God, how do you jump to son being creator from the verses. Its a JUMP!
David is also called son in Torah, so is he also a co-creator by this verses?

There are many other references to
Jesus, in the Old Testament, that I
could quote. Here’s just a few key verses… Proverbs 8:22-36 “The LORD brought me forth as the
first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world
began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was
given birth,
when there were no springs
abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled
in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its
fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the
heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on
the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds
above
and fixed securely the fountains of the
deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his
command,
and when he marked out the
foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to my instruction and be
wise;
do not ignore it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to
me, watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.
36 But whoever fails to find me harms
himself; all who hate me love death.” The person speaking through these
verses is Jesus, The Son God. Which is
why He states, that whoever finds Him,
receives favor from the Lord.

i wish you hadnt used this!
I never knew Jesus was 'her'

Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the
paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an
understanding heart. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips
shall be right things. 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my
lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing
froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that
find knowledge. 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than
choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired
are not to be compared to it. 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty
inventions. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil
way, and the froward mouth, do I
hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have
strength.

12) "I Wisdom..."
read that?
The passage personifies wisdom.
Now dont tell me Jesus pbuh is also called wisdom, just like light, day, son, lamb, shepherd etc etc
please! Show a bit more care before picking verses that seem to fit.
I want an open discussion, hope i dont offend you and i am not against your emotional belief, i know it can be hard but dont get defensive and see me as an opponent who has to be beaten.

reply to post by Joecroft


your reference

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

my reference

25 He answered and said: 'Lo, I
see four men
loose, walking in
the midst of the
fire, and they
have no hurt; and the
appearance of
the fourth is like
a son of the
gods.'

btw thats a pagan talking about what he saw, you want to use a quote by a pagan! RSV & ESV also have it as 'son of gods'
However thats not it,
read what the same Nebuchadnezzar continues

28 Nebuchadnezzar
spoke and said:
'Blessed be the
God of Shadrach,
Meshach, and
Abed-nego, who hath sent His
angel, and
delivered His
servants that
trusted in Him,
and have changed the
king's word, and
have yielded
their bodies, that
they might not
serve nor worship any
god, except their
own God.

so that 4th was an angel sent by God
now Daniel 7

13 I saw in the night visions,
and, behold,
there came with
the clouds of
heaven one like
unto a son of man, and he
came even to
the Ancient of
days, and he
was brought
near before Him.
14 And there was given him
dominion, and
glory, and a
kingdom, that
all the peoples,
nations, and languages
should serve
him; his
dominion is an
everlasting
dominion, which shall not
pass away, and
his kingdom
that which shall
not be
destroyed.

this is a night vision a dream and guess what, the same passage gives the interpretation.

18 But the saints of the
Most High shall
receive the
kingdom, and
possess the
kingdom for ever, even for
ever and ever

27 And the kingdom and
the dominion,
and the
greatness of the
kingdoms
under the whole heaven,
shall be given
to the people of
the saints of the
Most High; their
kingdom is an everlasting
kingdom, and
all dominions
shall serve and
obey them.'

i think its talking about 2nd coming of Jesus pbuh and ofcourse he and the saints get the kingdom.
Dont forget its a future event, the dominion(kingdom) 'will be' given to Christ and followers, he will reign after 2nd coming no doubt. I too believe that son of man is Jesus pbuh.
In the vision "it(kingdom) was given" as it was a vision of future seen in a dream and reported as a past dream. makes sense?
Btw thanks to confirm my belief more

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by Logical7
It could easily mean "i am Messiah" he was just answering the people how he knew that Abraham pbuh was glad to know the future time during Jesus pbuh. So simply saying before Abraham was i am Messiah and he knew it.

“before Abraham was, I AM Messiah“

Pretty much an ill thought out response, as the sentence then wouldn’t make any grammatical sense.

Originally posted by Logical7
this is just a poetic way of saying "Nobody" and then the name of one who can do is asked and if not his name then the name of a decendant who is alive to testify that the impossible feat was done, its just sarcasm used while praying to the One true God.

The verse maybe be using poetry, but it’s still talking, about the one true God and then bringing the Son into play. Again, a completely ridiculous an ill thought out reply.

Originally posted by Logical7
Prophets did miracles and God is creative, it would be boring to do same things, Abraham pbuh cut birds to pieces, kept them away on a mountain and called and they came.

All prophets know a bit of future, Abraham pbuh knew about Jesus pbuh, Jesus pbuh & Muhammad pbuh prophecies future event and signs of judgement daz and what miracle is impossible if the prophet is backed by God!?

Qur'an tells about a prophet for whom God made a pregnant she camel appear from a rock like it was an egg as a sign for the people that he is a prophet indeed.

I was talking about How Jesus is clearly different from all the Prophets because of all the miracles He did. And all you did was reference how a few Prophets, have done an occasional miracle in their lives, which can in no way, compare to Jesus, which was what I was trying to highlight.

Again, a completely ill thought out response.

- JC

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by Logical7
maybe that happens when you read translations, thats the reason i asked we should know the original quote as you know that english is a very poor language when it comes to specific.

There’s nothing wrong with the current translation; And if you thought there was, then you should have checked it yourself first, before posting this idea below…

“before Abraham was, I AM Messiah“

Again your response, is completely ridiculous…

Originally posted by Logical7
even if i grant that the verse talks about God, how do you jump to son being creator from the verses. Its a JUMP!
David is also called son in Torah, so is he also a co-creator by this verses?

It’s not a jump, because Jesus mentions in the Gospels, that those who find Him, have life…the same concept is mentioned in Proverbs 8 and there is clearly another person talking in that verse, who describes Himself being there, at Gods side, in the beginning.

The problem is, your addressing each of my points individually, and not even trying to weigh them up, as a whole. Again your reply, is lacking any depth, or thought to it.

Originally posted by Logical7
12) "I Wisdom..."
read that?


The passage personifies wisdom.
Now dont tell me Jesus pbuh is also called wisdom, just like light, day, son, lamb, shepherd etc etc
please! Show a bit more care before picking verses that seem to fit.
I want an open discussion, hope i dont offend you and i am not against your emotional belief, i know it can be hard but dont get defensive and see me as an opponent who has to be beaten.

But the verse Proverbs 8 is split into 2 parts!!! It’s only using the phrase wisdom, as a precursor, to those who come to understand, what the rest of the verses mean.

You don’t offend me, you offend yourself, by your ill thought out responses.

You’re already telling me, to take care on picking verses etc without even hearing first, what my explanation might be. I can tell by reading between the lines, that your mind is already made up.

Again your reply above, is really bad…

Originally posted by Logical7
my reference
25 He answered and said: 'Lo, I
see four men
loose, walking in
the midst of the
fire, and they
have no hurt; and the
appearance of
the fourth is like
a son of the
gods.'

btw thats a pagan talking about what he saw, you want to use a quote by a pagan! RSV & ESV also have it as 'son of gods'

Yes, there is a clear discrepancy between the translations, where one states “Son of God” and the other states “Sons of God”, the later being more likely as there were 4 standing there, in the vision.

Originally posted by Logical7
However thats not it,
read what the same Nebuchadnezzar continues

But your kind nit picking, because my main point, was that Daniel refers to Him, as the Son of Man, which is exactly what Jesus calls himself.

Originally posted by Logical7
i think its talking about 2nd coming of Jesus pbuh and ofcourse he and the saints get the kingdom.

Dont forget its a future event, the dominion(kingdom) 'will be' given to Christ and followers, he will reign after 2nd coming no doubt. I too believe that son of man is Jesus pbuh.

In the vision "it(kingdom) was given" as it was a vision of future seen in a dream and reported as a past dream. makes sense?
Btw thanks to confirm my belief more

Thanks, but only one aspect, of your belief, has been confirmed.

Yes, it is talking about the 2nd coming; but you need to ask yourself, why are other prophets, not also 2nd comings. And why is Daniel saying that this Son of Man, is to be given all authority. All these questions, you need to really ask yourself.

Btw I have tons more evidence for what I’m saying, that I haven’t even posted yet!

Anyway, I wish you well, but due to all your ill thought out responses, this conversation is now over!


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Btw I have tons more evidence for what I’m saying, that I haven’t even posted yet!

i understand that you do have it, i also understand why you will not post it. Others also know to read between lines. What i asked was a little intellectual honesty, maybe it was too much, btw you overdid it by calling my post ill concieve, lacking in depth etc too many times.

Anyway, I wish you well, but due to all your ill thought out responses, this conversation is now over!

my bad luck
it was nice to discuss with you.