Jesus(pbuh) dint knew the 'HOUR'!(Judgement day)

reply to post by logical7


The problem is that the Quran is nothing more than the Old and New Testament completely watered down and plagarized with the addition of new false doctrines. Jesus was completely God and human which is why he is the intercessor for the human race to God the Father. If you read the Gospels you will see that Jesus clearly claimed that He and the Father were one and that he was with the Father before all creation. As for the Islamic point of view, you only have two true options. Either Jesus was a liar or he was the Son of God. To say he is only a prophet is to also call Jesus a liar because that would mean he made false proclamations about his identity. There is no middle ground and how can you call him a prophet if he was also a liar in your opinion?

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by Logical7
how you say that, Jesus pbuh said "before Abraham was, I am" not "before Adam was, I am"
or you would quote

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Originally posted by Logical7
the objection i have is, "in the beginning there should be God"

This is where the confusion lies, When Jesus was created, He was the beginning!; in the verse above (John 1:1) Jesus is the Word. God had no beginning, because He is eternal. And the end part of John1:1 is more accurately translated as, “and the Word was Divine’, or in some translations “the Word was a God.”

Originally posted by Logical7
and you already acknowledged that Jesus pbuh is a created being.

Yes He was created, but He is also our Co-creator, with the Father God, from the beginning.

Proverbs 8:22:36

Originally posted by Logical7
If you agree that he is not divine then we can agree.

He is not a Man; He is not a Prophet, in the manly sense of the word, and neither is He the Eternal Father God.

He is The Son of God, set apart by the Father, from the very beginning of Time, and He is our Co-creator with the Father, which makes Him Divine as well.


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by logical7

 

Originally posted by Logical7
how you say that, Jesus pbuh said "before Abraham was, I am" not "before Adam was, I am"
or you would quote

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Originally posted by Logical7
the objection i have is, "in the beginning there should be God"

This is where the confusion lies, When Jesus was created, He was the beginning!; in the verse above (John 1:1) Jesus is the Word. God had no beginning, because He is eternal. And the end part of John1:1 is more accurately translated as, “and the Word was Devine’, or in some translations “the Word was a God.”

Originally posted by Logical7
and you already acknowledged that Jesus pbuh is a created being.

Yes He was created, but He is also our Co-creator, with the Father God, from the beginning.

Proverbs 8:22:36

Originally posted by Logical7
If you agree that he is not divine then we can agree.

He is not a Man; He is not a Prophet, in the manly sense of the word, and neither is He the Eternal Father God.

He is The Son of God, set apart by the Father, from the very beginning of Time, and He is our Co-creator with the Father, which makes Him Devine as well.

- JC

No. The manager of this universe has a name Source Entity. It has been human many times; playing both sides of the the fence, as Jesus IT sacraficed Itself to itself. . As the Dali Llama he fled his own people to hide in India watching his gold hoarding come to an end (the point of Maos invasion) take the power underlying, Gold intrinsic to all that know its true properties of transmutation. As Hitler attempted to dispose of the Hibiru and reclaimed the gems and gold it felt stolen. Funny, stolen from itself; someone betrayed someone else here just as it did Origin. Circular Always, Osiris reference. I suppose you could say Jesus was God but in disquise as the Son of. This is where I become angry; the entire arguement was false and misleading to begin with. The nose ring in the human. Source Entity was your slave master. It sickens me that you do not know this and orchestated all civil malcontent. It was a game. It still is.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
No. The manager of this universe has a name Source Entity. It has been human many times; playing both sides of the the fence, as Jesus IT sacraficed Itself to itself. . As the Dali Llama he fled his own people to hide in India watching his gold hoarding come to an end (the point of Maos invasion) take the power underlying, Gold intrinsic to all that know its true properties of transmutation. As Hitler attempted to dispose of the Hibiru and reclaimed the gems and gold it felt stolen. Funny, stolen from itself; someone betrayed someone else here just as it did Origin. Circular Always, Osiris reference. I suppose you could say Jesus was God but in disquise as the Son of. This is where I become angry; the entire arguement was false and misleading to begin with. The nose ring in the human. Source Entity was your slave master. It sickens me that you do not know this and orchestated all civil malcontent. It was a game. It still is.

No. Jesus was with the real Eternal Father God, and spoke on his behalf.


The manager, Source Entity, is not the creator…


- JC

reply to post by hxc408

As for the Islamic point of view, you only have two true options. Either Jesus was a liar or he was the Son of God.

actually there's a 3rd options, its not taking the Bible word for word. I believe Jesus pbuh got the Gospel, i am pretty sure he wasnt carrying a NT under his arm while teaching people. NT is supposed to be a biography of him by unknown authors and contain things more than the gospel he preached. Over this, show me a place where he called himself 'son of God'(declarative statement) and compare how much more he used 'son of man.'

To
say he is only a prophet is to also call
Jesus a liar because that would mean
he made false proclamations about his identity. There is no middle ground
and how can you call him a prophet if
he was also a liar in your opinion?

please dont call him a liar. You are not just putting rather stuffing words in my mouth and those words insult my prophet so please dont do it!
Qur'an gives me a very good idea of who he was and the best thing is even many priests and bible scholars agree to the Qur'anic perspective rather than the christian interpretation of Bible.
Jesus pbuh also said,"The Father is Greater than me, He is Greater than all" thats exactly what "Allah hu Akbar" means.
also in Mark he says anyone who does the Will of God is his mother/brother. Thats an islamic teaching. Muslims submit to the Will of God and call other muslims brothers/sisters/mothers in faith.
Every prophet came with the 'same' basic message. Even Jesus pbuh submitted to God when he asked the cup to pass "not my will but Your Will be done"

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
No. The manager of this universe has a name Source Entity. It has been human many times; playing both sides of the the fence, as Jesus IT sacraficed Itself to itself. . As the Dali Llama he fled his own people to hide in India watching his gold hoarding come to an end (the point of Maos invasion) take the power underlying, Gold intrinsic to all that know its true properties of transmutation. As Hitler attempted to dispose of the Hibiru and reclaimed the gems and gold it felt stolen. Funny, stolen from itself; someone betrayed someone else here just as it did Origin. Circular Always, Osiris reference. I suppose you could say Jesus was God but in disquise as the Son of. This is where I become angry; the entire arguement was false and misleading to begin with. The nose ring in the human. Source Entity was your slave master. It sickens me that you do not know this and orchestated all civil malcontent. It was a game. It still is.

No. Jesus was with the real Eternal Father God, and spoke on his behalf.


The manager, Source Entity, is not the creator…


- JC

Source Entity claimed Origin its Father was Jesus. Not true. That being said Jesus is not Eternal Father and spoke on no ones behalf. Source Entity created the 3 trillion soul sparks to jump this universe into being. Not so much a manager, and must get the SLAP of mismanagement. MY CHEESEBURGER WAS ACTUALLY HORSEMEAT.

reply to post by Joecroft


you said this

God had no
beginning, because He is eternal.

absolutely agreed! and this

When
Jesus was created, He was the
beginning!

not sure about this, but as you agree and these two quotes by you prove that he is not God.
About being 'divine' whats your definition? Divine as in 'Holy' or Divine as in 'Godly' are angels divine according to you?

He is not a Man; He is not a Prophet, in
the manly sense of the word, and
neither is He the Eternal Father God. He is The Son of God, set apart by the
Father, from the very beginning of
Time, and He is our Co-creator with the
Father, which makes Him Divine as
well.

lets assume i agree, so God made a Son first. I have asked this before, nobody answered. So God had a desire to have a son, and Jesus pbuh and God have the same Will, so will Jesus pbuh desire a son? Whats the future of Jesus? God The Father is Eternal, so Jesus pbuh will never inherit the 'Throne' or is God planning to retire!!
Will Jesus have his 'own' life in Heaven? A family or just watch the company of christians be happy with their families, while he is without and lonely? Will he keep suffering for the sake of christians?!

Originally posted by logical7
It is like you saying me to flip a coin and wanting that 'heads you win' & 'tails you win' and then complaining when i refuse to toss it.

No, it's like you offering to toss a coin, best out of three, and adding that times when the coin lands with heads upward don't count.

It's like me trying to "prove" from the Koran that Muhammed was an emissary of Satan, and then adding that people who want to argue that Muhammed was a Prophet should refrain from entering the debate.
It's called "wanting to play with loaded dice".

I promise you, every time you, as a Muslim, try to prove from the Christian New Testament, which you don't understand, that Christ could not be God, you will get a Christian response explaining how he can be God. That is legitimate.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by logical7
It is like you saying me to flip a coin and wanting that 'heads you win' & 'tails you win' and then complaining when i refuse to toss it.

No, it's like you offering to toss a coin, best out of three, and adding that times when the coin lands with heads upward don't count.

It's like me trying to "prove" from the Koran that Muhammed was an emissary of Satan, and then adding that people who want to argue that Muhammed was a Prophet should refrain from entering the debate.
It's called "wanting to play with loaded dice".

I promise you, every time you, as a Muslim, try to prove from the Christian New Testament, which you don't understand, that Christ could not be God, you will get a Christian response explaining how he can be God. That is legitimate.

i understand that, it was just my attempt to be 'economical' i already know the 'explanation'
posters are free to post it anyway but then i am going to reply to it and it will be a DEAD END! like i mentioned in my previous post.
I respect the faith and 'explanations' given but can you understand the weakness of that 'explanation' from the perspective of an outsider?
What appears more rational? A fully man-fully god idea or that someone tried to make him god but couldnt erase his prophet and manlike teachings completely?

reply to post by logical7


The answer is found in the bible. And it is surprising easy to understand.

Genesis 1:3 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Colossians 1:15-20
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Before God created natural light, the sun, and moon he created light. This is a highly controversial passage by the way. But here is the rest of the story. Jesus said he is the light of the world. Paul says Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. Geneses, Jesus and Paul agree that Jesus was the firstborn son. He was with the father from the beginning and everything was made by him for him.

He was with our father. And because he has gone to the father we may do even greater things than him. The bible says god is in you and Jesus told his decuples that they should be happy because he is returning to the father. The father and the son live in you in spirit. But only when you truly repent can you feel their presence.

If you don't feel him Repent and believe that he can heal you, just like he healed the Israelites 2000 years ago.

He is in you so he can heal you spiritually. Medical science proves that happier, more loving people live longer. This is also promised by God in the bible. He promises to add heath and years to anyone who obeys him. He also promises eternal salvation that can be made certain when you repent and enter into a relationship with him.

It really is that simple everyone. Repent and he will forgive you, and you will feel it in your spirit. But you must truly repent, walk away from all sin and believe that God can set you free.

reply to post by logical7


No. The explaination fully god and fully man fits beautifully. Obviously you didn't read the information I posted. If you had .. you wouldn't say what you are now.

The only explaination for you not seeing what is in front of you on this matter is that you are clinging to your MUSLIM faith .. a faith that can't hold water if Jesus is God ... so you refuse to see that he is because that will tear apart your ISLAM.

Go back and read what the early Christian fathers said .. what the church says .. it's all there. THAT is your explaination for Jesus saying He didn't know the hour.

Originally posted by logical7
NT is supposed to be a biography of him by unknown authors and contain things more than the gospel he preached.

No. The New Testament authors are known. And no, the gospel doesn't contain more than he preached. Unlike the Qu'ran, nothing is added to Jesus words in the New Testament. It comes from first hand sources who lived with Jesus and who learned from His apostles.

Qur'an gives me a very good idea of who he was

The Qur'an is FICTION. It was made up 600+ years after Jesus lived. It was invented by a dude with an agenda to make people think Jesus wasn't God in order to invent his own religion. There is nothing trustworthy in the Qu'ran.

even many priests and bible scholars agree to the Qur'anic perspective rather than the christian interpretation of Bible.

That's HIGHLY doubtful. You might find one or two ministers who are mixed up and buy into the Qu'ran .. but 'scholars' know that the Qu'ran is fictional material invented 600+ years after Jesus walked the Earth and that it isn't accurate at all.

Originally posted by logical7
so God made a Son first.

Eternally begotten of the Father ... not made.

so will Jesus pbuh desire a son?

Dunno. Ask Him.

Whats the future of Jesus?

What do you mean? Scripture is pretty clear about Him coming in glory and judging and everyone being in Heaven.

God The Father is Eternal, so Jesus pbuh will never inherit the 'Throne' or is God planning to retire!!

This is typical Muslim projection ... projecting how life is on earth in Muslim countries onto heaven. According to scripture, Heaven isn't like that. "Eye has not seen, ear has not heard" what Heaven is like. It's etherial .. not temporal.

A family or just watch the company of christians be happy with their families, while he is without and lonely?

Again you are projecting life on earth as it is in Muslim countries onto heaven. There is NO MARRIAGE in heaven. Jesus said so. People 'live like the angels'. And with the Beatific Vision of God .. no one is 'lonely'.

Will he keep suffering for the sake of christians?!

Where do you get that from? There is no suffering in heaven.

I understand that you are seeped in Islamic thought about what Heaven will be. But Heaven isn't like earth. According to Jesus - There is no marriage. There is no sex. People don't give birth. There is no suffering. There is no hate. And there is no faith or hope .. those are the anticipation of what is to come and Heaven is the fulfillment of that anticipation so there is no faith (no muslims, no jews, no christians, no hindus .. just people).

reply to post by sacgamer25

The answer is found in the bible. And it is surprising easy to understand. Genesis 1:3 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

not really, its called verse hunting. Would you bring any vèrse that mentions 'light' or 'son' to connect it to Jesus pbuh, have some limit at least. As a christian you can digest this, i cant!
There is a big problem when people dont understand metaphors, Jesus pbuh being light means 'guidance' he showed a path, follow it and not worship him.
And about Paul letters, could you tell me who authorised him to speak about Jesus pbuh and write 1/3 NT? Who was he?!!!

reply to post by FlyersFan

The other text is Mark, xiii, 32: "Of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father." After all that has been written on this question in recent years, we see no need to add anything to the traditional explanations: the Son has no knowledge of the judgment day which He may communicate; or, the Son has no knowledge of this event, which springs from His human nature as such; or again, the Son has no knowledge of the day and the hour, that has not been communicated to Him by the Father.

just look at the last of 3rd idea. He dint knew the hour because he has been taught all about it!!
and the explanation of 'word' and 'human soul' together in him. Really, so the 'Word' posessed him like devil posesses a man?
What is 'Word' exactly? A spirit? Or a sound? If spirit then a spirit & soul in one body?
The explanations you give raise more questions than give answers, and yes i am a muslim but i am not afraid that Islam wont stand. I want to be challenged. I dont want to be in a bubble pleased with my own beautiful explanations justifying my own faith.
How can you assume that an outsider would agree with your explanations by taking your word of priests/fathers word for it. You say Jesus pbuh had soul and Word in him. Why it has to be true. What if its just creative imagination?
You want me to give up my soul to this belief and if its wrong then am i not doomed?
I value my soul, just have one you see!

reply to post by FlyersFan

No. The New Testament authors are known. And no, the gospel doesn't contain more than he preached. Unlike the Qu'ran, nothing is added to Jesus words in the New Testament. It comes from first hand sources who lived with Jesus and who learned from His apostles.

bible scholars say different.

That's HIGHLY doubtful. You might find
one or two ministers who are mixed
up and buy into the Qu'ran .. but
'scholars' know that the Qu'ran is
fictional material invented 600+ years
after Jesus walked the Earth and that it isn't accurate at all.

i'l make you a simple request, would you care to read the Qur'an? Give a fair chance to Qur'an. What do you say?

reply to post by FlyersFan

Eternally begotten of the Father ... not made.

how God did it? On earth Jesus pbuh came through Mary.
How he got 'begotten' as 1st creation before anything else existed?
God just divided Himself in 3?

Originally posted by logical7
bible scholars say different.

No. Christian bible 'scholars' do not.

would you care to read the Qur'an?

Already have .. a few times. Gets funnier every time I read it.

Give a fair chance to Qur'an. What do you say?

I say the Qu'ran is hokum. Some (poorly) stolen from the Jews and Christians and some just totally made up. Not revelations from God at all. Full of misogyny. Easily debunked because of it's historical and scientific errors and contradictions.

If I want to know about Jesus, I'll go to the original source. The documents that were written by those who walked and talked with him and his followers. I'm not going to buy fictional stories made up by some guy 600 years after Christ walked the earth. That would be absurd.

Originally posted by logical7
How he got 'begotten' as 1st creation before anything else existed?

'Eternally begotten' .. and through Him all things were made.
He was begotten before all ages.

God just divided Himself in 3?

Look at a clover leaf ... one leaf, but also three leaves.
That's the easiest description of the Trinity that I can give you.

The Christian belief that Jesus is 'eternally begotten' of the Father -

Nicene Creed Prayer

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. ...

Originally posted by logical7
He dint knew the hour because he has been taught all about it!!

Scripture is very clear .. Jesus grew in body and also in wisdom. He took on being Human and so He had to experience what it was like to be Human, while not giving up being God. At the presentation of Jesus in the temple it is clear that he 'grew in wisdom' like a human, even though He was God incarnate.

What is 'Word' exactly?

JESUS is 'The Word'. (See the beginning of the gospel of John)
In the beginning was 'The Word' and 'The Word' was with God, and 'The Word' was God.

How can you assume that an outsider would agree with your explanations by taking your word of priests/fathers word for it.

YOU asked about the bible quote saying that Jesus 'didn't know the hour'. So I gave you the Christian explaination for that quote. Christianity has had 2,000 years to understand it. If you want to cling to the Muslim beliefs which aren't anything like the Christian beliefs .. go right ahead. But don't pretend to want to know what the bible quote means if you aren't prepared for the answer. If you ask .. you will get the answer .. and you probably won't like the answer because it totally destroys your religion.

what if its just creative imagination?

Like the Qu'ran stories of Jesus .. written 600+ years after he was on Earth ??