Jesus(pbuh) dint knew the 'HOUR'!(Judgement day)

reply to post by FlyersFan

Some (poorly) stolen from the Jews and Christians and some just totally made up. Not revelations from God at all. Full of misogyny. Easily debunked because of it's historical and scientific errors and contradictions. If I want to know about Jesus, I'll go to the original source. The documents that were written by those who walked and talked with him and his followers. I'm not going to buy fictional stories made up by some guy 600 years after Christ walked the earth. That would be absurd.

what translation of Qur'an you read?
Would you consider discussing Qur'anic errors with me?
Why you want to know about Jesus pbuh from Qur'an? Would you read buddhist texts to find Jesus?
Why not read Qur'an to get the spiritual message that makes 2/3rd.

reply to post by FlyersFan

'Eternally begotten' .. and through Him all things were made. He was begotten before all ages.

how??? So God was God then poofff...!!! and it was Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

Look at a clover leaf ... one leaf, but
also three leaves.
That's the easiest description of the
Trinity that I can give you.

yes, because you cant understand it yourself more than that, if you do then tell me in your own words please.

Who for us men
and for our salvation came down from
heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was
made man

so Holy Ghost is his father? Or The Father is the father?

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by Joecroft
God had no
beginning, because He is eternal.

Originally posted by Logical7
absolutely agreed! and this

Originally posted by Joecroft
When
Jesus was created, He was the
beginning!

Originally posted by Logical7
not sure about this, but as you agree and these two quotes by you prove that he is not God.

No, those quotes, only prove that He is not the Father God Eternal Creator, but He is our Co-Creator with the Father, which is what makes him unique. A God by definition, is a creator, which makes Jesus a God also…

Assuming you accept what I’m saying; Jesus is not a normal man/Prophet, He is only a prophet, in the sense that He teaches people about God the Father.

You see, the Quran verses are not wrong. Muslims recognize this, which is why they reject Jesus as being the Eternal Father God. Most Christians simply see Jesus as God/Father, but this leads to huge contradictions IMO, even within the confines, of the OT, and the NT.

What I am suggesting, is that Christians have interpreted scripture incorrectly. Islam has then rejected this misinterpretation (and rightly so IMO) but unfortunately, they too, are also wrong, in stating that Jesus is only a Prophet.

There is a higher truth, that lies between those truths.

Originally posted by Logical7
About being 'divine' whats your definition? Divine as in 'Holy' or Divine as in 'Godly' are angels divine according to you?

Not sure about Angels, because some have fallen, and therefore I don’t really think they can be classified as Divine. Just my personal opinion though.

But technically speaking, and according to the definition of the word “Divine”, anything that is of God, from God, or like a God, is classified as Divine.

Personally I would only go with the later part of the definition, which means only the Father and Jesus the son, fit the bill.

Originally posted by Joecroft
He is not a Man; He is not a Prophet, in
the manly sense of the word, and
neither is He the Eternal Father God. He is The Son of God, set apart by the
Father, from the very beginning of
Time, and He is our Co-creator with the
Father, which makes Him Divine as
well.

Originally posted by Logical7
lets assume i agree, so God made a Son first. I have asked this before, nobody answered. So God had a desire to have a son, and Jesus pbuh and God have the same Will, so will Jesus pbuh desire a son?

But we are! Jesus and the Fathers sons; because they are both our Co-Creators.

Originally posted by Logical7
Whats the future of Jesus? God The Father is Eternal, so Jesus pbuh will never inherit the 'Throne' or is God planning to retire!!

Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, it’s mentioned in the Christian scriptures.

Originally posted by Logical7
Will Jesus have his 'own' life in Heaven? A family or just watch the company of christians be happy with their families, while he is without and lonely? Will he keep suffering for the sake of christians?!

Like I said above, we are Jesus family, all of us. And your question could just as easily be directed towards God the Father. Jesus is not lonely and neither is the Father God. And yes, He will go on helping us, for everyone’s sake, and not just Christians.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

What I am suggesting, is that Christians have interpreted scripture incorrectly. Islam has then rejected this misinterpretation (and rightly so IMO) but unfortunately, they too, are also wrong, in stating that Jesus is only a Prophet.

There is a higher truth, that lies between those truths.

Interesting... It seems as if there was a trend in the emergence of the Abrahamic religions... +S

reply to post by Joecroft

No, those quotes, only prove that He is not the Father God Eternal Creator, but He is our Co-Creator with the Father, which is what makes him unique. A God by definition, is a creator, which makes Jesus a God also…

What I am suggesting, is that
Christians have interpreted scripture
incorrectly. Islam has then rejected this
misinterpretation (and rightly so IMO)
but unfortunately, they too, are also
wrong, in stating that Jesus is only a Prophet. There is a higher truth, that lies
between those truths.

doesnt it come back to a strange idea, God but not Father, Prophet but not just a man?
In short you are saying Jesus pbuh is not the Highest God but under Him yet a partner as a Creator.
Muslims dint get it Wrong from the Qur'an. Qur'an is very clear about pure monotheism and who Jesus pbuh is, he is Christ and a mighty messenger also he is the Word of God as God says, when He wants a thing to be done, He says "Be" and it is! Thats how Jesus pbuh was created in the womb of Mary, no 'seed' or 'begetting' these are insulting attributes to God!!

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by Logical7
In short you are saying Jesus pbuh is not the Highest God but under Him yet a partner as a Creator.

Yes, none can be higher than Father/God, but none can be higher than the Son of God i.e. Jesus, except the Father. Jesus is our creator, just as much as the Father God is.

Originally posted by Logical7
Muslims dint get it Wrong from the Qur'an.

I’m not saying those verses in the Quran are wrong. I’m saying there right! But it’s mans interpretation which is wrong.

Originally posted by Logical7
Qur'an is very clear about pure monotheism and who Jesus pbuh is, he is Christ and a mighty messenger also he is the Word of God as God says, when He wants a thing to be done,

Yes, I completely agree with you, He is the word of God, that’s what the Christian scriptures also say. Monotheism is still intact, because there is only one Father God. The Lord thy God is one!

Originally posted by Logical7

He says "Be" and it is! Thats how Jesus pbuh was created in the womb of Mary, no 'seed' or 'begetting' these are insulting attributes to God!!

Yes, that’s from the Quran, I’ve read it!

But that verse is only talking about Jesus body and flesh being created.

All men have a Spirit and a body. Jesus is not His body, He is the Spirit housed within it. Jesus, The Son of God, had his own pre-existing Spirit, which is why IMO, in that verse you mentioned earlier, He said the words, “before Abraham was, I AM.“

The Spirit that was housed in the body of Jesus, was the Word, and was The Son of God. Not the flesh!!


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

All men have a Spirit and a body. Jesus is not His body, He is the Spirit housed within it. Jesus, The Son of God, had his own pre-existing Spirit, which is why IMO, in that verse you mentioned earlier, He said the words, “before Abraham was, I AM.“ The Spirit that was housed in the body of Jesus, was the Word, and was The Son of God. Not the flesh!!

every soul that is supposed to exist is already present with God that was what Jesus pbuh meant when said "before Abraham was i am"
God already had a plan for him before Abraham right? The All Knowing GOD knew the train of Prophets he was going to send including prophet Muhammad pbuh. Right?
The Qur'an addresses this very clearly.

And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when
Allaah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], “Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him.” [Allaah] said, “Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?” They said, “We have acknowledged it.” He said, “Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.”[Quran 3:81]

so the acknowledgment of prophethood is reverse and forward. Jesus pbuh acknowledged Abraham pbuh and vice versa. Thats the reason "before Abraham was i am" or "before Abraham was (on earth) i am(a prophet)"
remember he was accused of knowing Abraham and Abraham knowing him when he is not even yet 50.
Here see it in context
John 8

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil.
Abraham is dead, and the prophets;
and thou sayest, If a man keep my
saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the
prophets are dead: whom makest
thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father
that honoureth me; of whom ye say,
that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know
him not, I shall be a liar like unto you:
but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was
glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast
thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I
am.

makes more sense now, no?

reply to post by logical7


Shakespeare was a good storyteller, but I always hated how flowery his language was. It took him five minutes to explain that the stars were beautiful.

No one knows the hour or day. End of story.

reply to post by logical7


Shakespeare was a good storyteller, but I always hated how flowery his language was. It took him five minutes to explain that the stars were beautiful.

No one knows the hour or day. End of story.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

No one knows the hour or day. End of story.

Finally someone at least got the general idea and in just one sentence. Thanks.

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by Logical7
every soul that is supposed to exist is already present with God that was what Jesus pbuh meant when said "before Abraham was i am"

I don’t believe so.

That verse only applies to Jesus IMO, because He was there, in the beginning, with God.

This doesn’t apply to any other man in history. Even if you belief in reincarnation, no one came before, The Son of God, except the Father God.

Originally posted by Logical7
God already had a plan for him before Abraham right?

Yes, but God had a plan for him, (Jesus) from the beginning of all creation.

Originally posted by Logical7
The All Knowing GOD knew the train of Prophets he was going to send including prophet Muhammad pbuh. Right?

The Qur'an addresses this very clearly.
And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when
Allaah took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], “Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him.” [Allaah] said, “Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?” They said, “We have acknowledged it.” He said, “Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.”[Quran 3:81]

All the prophets, Muhammad included, were righteous men, who sought to follow God, with all their hearts and souls. God then honored them, by giving them inspired words, to write down etc…

This of course doesn’t apply to Jesus, because he spoke directly from the Father, in “real time”, which is another reason why He isn’t just a Prophet.

Originally posted by Logical7
so the acknowledgment of prophethood is reverse and forward. Jesus pbuh acknowledged Abraham pbuh and vice versa.

Yes, Jesus acknowledged that Abraham spoke on Gods behalf, and that he was a Prophet from God etc…but Abraham, was promised by God, the coming of the Messiah Jesus. No other prophets, are referred to as Messiah’s… you need to ask yourself why?

Originally posted by Logical7
Thats the reason "before Abraham was i am" or "before Abraham was (on earth) i am(a prophet)"

“I Am” does not mean Prophet…


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

This of course doesn’t apply to Jesus, because he spoke directly from the Father, in “real time”, which is another reason why He isn’t just a Prophet.

so what he spoke in "real time" is the Gospel right? I believe that what he preached is the Gospel not what is written in his biographies just labelled as gospels.

No
other prophets, are referred to as Messiah’s… you need to ask yourself
why?

because he is the Christ. Every major prophet got a title, Abraham pbuh was called Friend of Allah.
.
Btw you are disagreeing because of your belief. I respect that, but do you agree objectively that the islamic prespective is also consistent in giving an alternative picture?

Gospel means "good news".

The (definite article specific) good news is that the Messiah had come and died for mankind's sin.

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by Logical7
Btw you are disagreeing because of your belief. I respect that, but do you agree objectively that the islamic prespective is also consistent in giving an alternative picture?

I respect Islam and the Islamic people, because I know that they believe in the One True God. The same God, whom the Prophets believed in, in the Old Testament.

I agree with the Islamic verses that I’ve read, which suggest that Jesus can’t be God the Father, and I’m trying to give you a different take, and understanding on it.

The OT suggests the same thing, and even Jesus himself states that the Father is greater than Him.

But like I said before, I still believe that Jesus spoke directly, from God the Father. Where as all the other prophets heard Gods voice, in prayer, and then wrote the words down etc… But Jesus is unique, in that He spoke for God/Father, in “real time” i.e. in one on one conversations, with everyday people.

Originally posted by Logical7
because he is the Christ. Every major prophet got a title, Abraham pbuh was called Friend of Allah.

Problem is, there are just too many things, which Jesus says and does, which go beyond the norm, of just a normal man/Prophet.

The miracles Jesus performed, coming to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, stating that He is one with the Father, and stating that no one comes to the Father, except through him etc…the list goes on and on. Why don’t other prophets, do and claim those types of things? (Rhetorical question)


- JC

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Gospel means "good news".

The (definite article specific) good news is that the Messiah had come and died for mankind's sin.

No he did not. He realized he was a SHILL take the heat failure/foreskin absolutely lied to; therefore the betrayal by Source Entity. No good news whatsoever. Believe it he hates being portrayed on a crucifix like an ANIMAL skinned and bled THE LAMB OF GOD. No human in their right mind would sacrafice themselves to such an undeveloped ill concieved monotheist concept. You aught to talk to him; his take on this pagent of archetypal overlays is very different; in the least, being hung nailed on that ridiculous OVER THE TOP torture Roman contraption realized he was being used as an implement for better things to come (human race) NOT.

NOTyurTypical? Have you actually talked to Yeshua Ben Joseph or what you think is its Creator?
Have you lost your senses? This Man has tremendous pride living now as an ex-marine sniper, carpenter and arms dealer. You have no idea its bottem, the father that betrayed it, confusion, hatred of religion, an atheist devout. What say you to that. Ruined SOUL. Fix Jesus for he is in a very bad place emotionally and instead of YOU PRAYING TO HIM PRAY FOR HIM as the hollow shell HE IS that I see NEEDS SAVING. NOT YOU.
What a concept, instead of praying to Jesus, Pray For Him, he needs your help. not to mention but will; the concentration camps; the obliteration by the Nazis of his Polish relatives. Any Idea Why Pope John Paul II was Polish? A nod to him. Oh yes Jesus reincarnated just like you did. John Paul was a relative Irony of ironies, Pope Bennedict the 16th is a NAZI Pope. German and not regular Army Lufftwaffe.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Did you make a wrong turn looking for the Rant forum?

Originally posted by winofiend
darn biblical conflicts.

anyone would think some humans wrote the entire thing to suit an agenda at the time...

Conflicts in the mind, yet they manifest into monsters, paper to pigskin. No true Christian will murder, or he is cut from the cloth of the lord. I know some of you understand the bible and choose to ignore the truth contained within: I think, it's about time the children of God are told the truth, they're marked at birth

reply to post by Joecroft

I agree with the Islamic verses that I’ve read, which suggest that Jesus can’t be God the Father, and I’m trying to give you a different take, and understanding on it.

maybe you havnt read all ayahs(verses)

(4:156) and for their going so far in unbelief as uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, (4:157) and their saying: 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary', the Messenger of Allah - whereas in fact
they had neither slain him nor crucified him but the matter was made dubious to them - and those who differed about it too were in a state of doubt! They have no definite knowledge of it, but merely follow conjecture; and they surely slew him not, (4:158) but Allah raised him to Himself. Allah is All-Mighty, All- Wise. (4:159) There are none among the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death, and he will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection.

(5:75) The Messiah, son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals
do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!
(5:76) Say: 'Do you serve, beside Allah, that which has no power either to harm or benefit you, whereas Allah alone is All-Hearing, All-Knowing?'
(5:77) Say: 'People of the Book! Do not go beyond bounds in your religion at the cost of truth, and do not follow the caprices of the people who fell into error before, and caused others to go astray, and strayed far away from the right path.
(5:78) Those of the Children of Israel who took to unbelief have been cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary, for they rebelled and exceeded the bounds of right.

(5:104) When they are asked: 'Come to what Allah has revealed, and come to the Messenger', they reply: 'The way of our forefathers suffices us.' (Will they continue to follow their forefathers) even though their forefathers might have
known nothing, and might have been on the wrong way?

(5:110) Imagine, then, when Allah will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, recall My favour upon you and your mother, and when I strengthened you with the spirit of holiness so that you talked to men in the cradle and also when you became of age; and when I taught you the Book and Wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel; and when, by My leave, you fashioned from clay the likeness of a bird and you breathed into it, and by My leave it became a bird; you healed, by My leave, the blind from birth and the leprous; and when, by My leave, you caused the dead to come to life. And recall when I restrained the Israelites from you when you came to them with clear proofs whereupon those of them who disbelieved said: "This is nothing but clear magic." (5:111) And recall when I revealed to the disciples to believe in Me and in My Mes-senger, they said: "We do believe, and we bear witness that we indeed are the ones who submit to Allah" (5:112) Also recall when the disciples asked Jesus, son of Mary: 'Jesus, son of Mary, has your Lord the power to send down to us a repast from the heaven?' There- upon Jesus said: 'Fear Allah if you do indeed have faith.' (5:113) They said: 'We desire to partake of it that our hearts be satisfied and we know that you did speak the truth to us, and that we are its witnesses.' (5:114) Jesus, son of Mary, then prayed: 'O Allah, our Lord, send down to us a repast from the heavens that shall be a festival for the first of us and for the last of us, and a sign from You. And provide us with sustenance, for You are the best Provider of sustenance.' (5:115) Allah said: 'I shall indeed send it down to you; then, I shall afflict whoever among you who disbelieves with a chastisement wherewith I will afflict none in the worlds.' (5:116) And imagine when thereafter Allah will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people: "Take me and my mother for gods beside Allah?" and he will answer: "Glory to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right to. Had I said so, You would surely have known it. You know all what is within my mind whereas I do not know what is within Yours. You, indeed You, know fully all that is beyond the reach of human perception. (5:117) I said to them nothing except what You commanded me, that is: 'Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' I watched over them as long as I remained among them; and when You did recall me, then You Yourself became the Watcher over them. Indeed, You are Witness over everything. (5:118) If You chastise them, they are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are the All- Mighty, the All-Wise."' (5:119) Thereupon Allah will say: 'This day truthfulness shall profit the truthful. For them are Gardens beneath which rivers flow. There they will abide for ever. Allah is well- pleased with them, and they well-pleased with Allah. That indeed is the mighty triumph.' (5:120) To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is in them and He has full power over everything.

reply to post by logical7



I haven’t read all the ayahs, but I have read the 2 you just quoted before, a few years back.

Originally posted by Logical7
maybe you havnt read all ayahs(verses)

(4:156) and for their going so far in unbelief as uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, (4:157) and their saying: 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary', the Messenger of Allah - whereas in fact
they had neither slain him nor crucified him but the matter was made dubious to them - and those who differed about it too were in a state of doubt! They have no definite knowledge of it, but merely follow conjecture; and they surely slew him not, (4:158) but Allah raised him to Himself. Allah is All-Mighty, All- Wise. (4:159) There are none among the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death, and he will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection.

Here’s the problem with that verse above…

First Jesus own words…

Matthew 20:17-19
Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.”

And secondly…

Here’s just a few historians, who recorded an account, of Jesus death…

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails." Roman author Phlegon, 117-38 AD

"What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King?"
(letter of Mara Bar-Serapion") in 73 AD

"Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him [Jesus] to the cross” Josephus 37-100 AD

"a wise man who was called Jesus . . . Pilate condemned him to be condemned and to die." Roman historian, Cornelius Tacitus 55-117 AD

"[A]s the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced a new cult into the world," Lucian, born 120 AD

"when discussing the darkness which fell upon the land during the crucifixion of Christ," it was an eclipse. Julius Africanus, quoting Thallus, in 221 AD

And lastly…

Islam didn’t arrive on the scene, until roughly 600 AD!!

Originally posted by Logical7

ayahs verses (5:75) to (5:120)

Yes, but the Jewish people were the first to make the same mistake, of not seeing who the Son of God is. The Son of God is mentioned in many of the OT scriptures, but the Jewish people couldn’t see this, because they couldn’t understand it, and were/are, rapped up in the argument, of God is one etc..; that’s why they didn’t recognize him, when He first showed up. Islam has made a continuation, of the same mistake.

Muslims believe in the Prophets of the Old Testament... right?

Well, here’s just one example…

Proverbs 30:1-4
“I am weary, God,but I can prevail.
Surely I am only a brute, not a man;
I do not have human understanding.
I have not learned wisdom,
nor have I attained to the knowledge of the Holy One.
Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
Surely you know!

Islam rightly sees that Jesus points believers towards the Father God and not himself, which is clearly mentioned in the ayahs, verses (5:116).

The problem with Islam, is that it is just viewing Jesus on the Flesh/man aspect, without incorporating the idea, that He had pre-existence in the Spirit. In other words, He’s the Son of God, not because God had a fleshy son (God did of course, create the flesh), but because He was, the first one created in spirit, with the Father, in the beginning.

You need to ask yourself some critical questions here. Why does Jesus, unlike all the other prophets, have power to turn clay into a birds, or heal the sick, or manifest food out of thin air, or walk on water, know the future, claim to speak on the Fathers behalf etc etc etc…And what kind of a prophet, tells people, that the only way to the Father, is through Him, what kind of prophet, would say such a thing, or have those kinds of powers.

The Answer: Jesus is Co-creator, with the Father God, from the beginning.

- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

This of course doesn’t apply to Jesus, because he spoke directly from the Father, in “real time”, which is another reason why He isn’t just a Prophet.

he was taught the Torah and Gospel by God but where was the "real time" all the time? Each prophet got some real time interaction with God and revealation through Gabriel(Holy Ghost) if you call that "real time"

Yes, Jesus acknowledged that
Abraham spoke on Gods behalf, and
that he was a Prophet from God etc…
but Abraham, was promised by God,
the coming of the Messiah Jesus. No
other prophets, are referred to as Messiah’s… you need to ask yourself
why?

one of the meaning of Messiah is "he lives" not "he resurrects"
Jews reject Jesus pbuh as Messiah because they say he died as you read in the Ayahs of Qur'an. (they claimed "we killed him")
maybe you need to rethink what difference it makes to you if Jesus pbuh is a Messiah and Prophet or more as you claim. You would not do any wrong if you just worship God, i dont think Jesus pbuh would mind, he actually says in Bible and Qur'an, "worship my Lord and your Lord"
.
The "I Am" part also is a doubt, maybe you should see the hebrew/aramaic text, what if something got lost in translation.
It could easily mean "i am Messiah" he was just answering the people how he knew that Abraham pbuh was glad to know the future time during Jesus pbuh. So simply saying before Abraham was i am Messiah and he knew it.