Get rid of Minimum Wage, Save the World!

reply to post by camaro68ss

Minimum Wage.
With hundreds of unemployed people applying for each job vacancy employers have realised they only need to offer the minimum wage.
Because the minimum wage is so low the employee does not pay income tax and they need top-up benefits because without the benefits ALL their earnings would be gone after paying Rent/Mortgage payments and council tax etc.
The benefits are needed to buy food and clothes and to pay extortionate electric and gas bills, and to cover the cost of getting to work etc.

Can you see the problem?
We have a workforce that is paid so little it cannot pay income tax.
On top of that the same workforce requires top-up benefits to survive.
If this workforce cannot pay income tax then from where do we get the money to pay the benefits that they need?
Where do we get the money for our national health service and all the other services?

Where is all the money going?
Its in the bank accounts of all those greedy corporations that only pay minimum wage OR LESS because they have a workforce that’s subsidised with benefit money.

I was sitting in a train station and heard four school children (about 15 years of age) discussing all that I’ve written above. I was impressed; I thought the young were too dumbed down to understand.
On hearing their discussion I couldn’t help but think of all the people I see in these forums who still don’t understand what these young kids have already worked out for themselves, that is…

Forcing people into work does not create income tax, it creates a benefit claim!!


If an employee does an honest weeks work for a large corporation such as tesco for example, then that employee ought to earn enough money to provide for his family without the need for top-up benefits.
BUT!!!
Every year we hear of the £billions of profit earnt by these corporations and then we hear the stories about tesco’s etc who not only pay minimum wage but have started laying off full time minimum wage employee’s and started taking on people who are forced to work just for benefits.
This means that the few people who do have a reasonably well paid job and are paying income tax are paying the wages of the tesco employee’s, tesco etc are paying NOTHING!!

Source

Originally posted by Anundeniabletruth
To build on what another guy basically said. There's no law preventing them from paying more than minimum wage. Yet, the majority of jobs refuse to do so. if what you and many others like to propose is so great then why not try it? We don't need the government to hold our hands to do every little thing do we? Why can't these great businesses lead by example?


Giving the wealthy even more power is never the answer! They are not our gods and they do not know or care whats best for us.

and government does?

reply to post by camaro68ss


acually it comes from profits which are at an all time high,


you are very clearly miss informed

xploder

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by Anundeniabletruth
To build on what another guy basically said. There's no law preventing them from paying more than minimum wage. Yet, the majority of jobs refuse to do so. if what you and many others like to propose is so great then why not try it? We don't need the government to hold our hands to do every little thing do we? Why can't these great businesses lead by example?


Giving the wealthy even more power is never the answer! They are not our gods and they do not know or care whats best for us.

and government does?

edit on 6-2-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)

I thought you had a problem with the one liners? Why respond with one?

I never once said anything pro government. Hell, the government is ran by those businessmen, we all know that.

Originally posted by XPLodER
reply to post by camaro68ss

 

acually it comes from profits which are at an all time high,

you are very clearly miss informed

xploder

Productivity is up because there is now a limited supply of jobs. People work harder to keep them. Same concept can be provided to the dropping of minimum wage. higher paying jobs, higher priductivity based on free markets.
lower cost of goods, deflation, better life styles on a smaller wage.

Your chart has nothing to do with profits, you guys are just throw stuff to the wall to make it stick

reply to post by camaro68ss


Getting rid of the min. wage isn't required to accomplish what you are suggesting. Econ 101 dipstick. Let each employer raise their wages to an acceptable wage above the min. which isn't even livable. By your own rationale everything should then work itself out. I lament for the future if this is the product of modern education.

Originally posted by th3dudeabides
reply to post by camaro68ss

 

Getting rid of the min. wage isn't required to accomplish what you are suggesting. Econ 101 dipstick. Let each employer raise their wages to an acceptable wage above the min. which isn't even livable. By your own rationale everything should then work itself out. I lament for the future if this is the product of modern education.

You obviously don’t understand the concept “dipstick”. your insults only prove your ignorance and lose of counter arguments.

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by XPLodER
reply to post by camaro68ss

 

acually it comes from profits which are at an all time high,

you are very clearly miss informed

xploder

Productivity is up because there is now a limited supply of jobs. People work harder to keep them. Same concept can be provided to the dropping of minimum wage. higher paying jobs, higher priductivity based on free markets.
lower cost of goods, deflation, better life styles on a smaller wage.

Your chart has nothing to do with profits, you guys are just throw stuff to the wall to make it stick

edit on 6-2-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-2-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)

if productivity and gdp per capita are up and the household income has continued to decline that would mean that few are making more which would mean that profits are up
learn2logic

reply to post by sirhumperdink


No it doesn't GDP has nothing l do with profits. As you see prductivity is up in your chart.

Originally posted by camaro68ss
reply to post by sirhumperdink

 

No it doesn't GDP has nothing l do with profits.

yes it does
gdp is gross domestic product
so if our gross domestic product is continuing to go up (meaning we are producing more wealth) and the household income declines (meaning they are receiving less wealth) that would mean that profits are up (or that the wealth is concentrating)

you see how that works now?

Originally posted by camaro68ss
I take it non of you even read what i had to say? you dont even have a counter argument, just one liners And believes that are feed to you by the MSM that are not even your own.

read every word. still a bad idea.

The fact that anyone works for minimum wage means that there are not enough jobs at In and Out for everyone.

Originally posted by Bilk22

Originally posted by camaro68ss
I’m going to try and convince you why getting rid of the minimum wage would be good for this country and any country for the matter.

Let’s take a look at Henry Ford, No minimum wage at the time. He opened up his Ford car plant and paid all his workers $5 a day when his competitors where paying their workers $2.50 a day. Solely on free market principles, more people flocked to work for Ford. Once securing a job, they worked extra hard to keep that job, increasing productivity of the plant and driving down cost to produce a car. Because of free market principles, his company boomed and the workers prospered. Ford Motors was known as the peoples company.

Creating a “minimum wage” discourages productivity and in all actuality increase the cost of goods produced. Once on minimum wage, why work hard? You’re on a fixed pay and can’t go lower. Why even force a company to pay a base wage that is not even livable in the first place? Artificially increase minimum wage only increase prices of goods and not productivity. Only competition can increase wages, productivity and lower price of goods!

If minimum wage was not around, free markets would establish a market value wage. Those jobs that pay well get higher productivity, based on people wanting to keep their high paying jobs intern lowering the cost of goods sold based on higher output. Those Companies that don’t pay well will have a hard time finding people to fill the jobs, based on people not wanting to work for lower wages, and as a result, lower productivity increases the cost of goods. A free market wage will eventually drop the prices of all goods making all good obtainable to all.

To understand this principle, look at doctors or any specialty skilled job. Doctors are not paid a minimum wage, Why? Because no doctor will work for minimum wage when they know the hospital down the street will pay them a “fair” market wage for their skill. Why should this be any different for any other skill?

Base of free market principals, with no minimum wages, people will only flock to the higher paying job naturally. To keep that job they will work harder, other companies will have a hard time finding employees because there wages paid are to low forcing that company to increase its salary to entice workers to work at their facilities or restaurants. As this plays out, competitive wage battles will start, Company “A” will increase pay over company “B” to entice harder works to join, company “B” follows suit to keep its staff. Productivity increases, standard of living increases and cost of goods produced falls. It’s a win win. As long as there is competition and free market principles in the market place, a minimum wageless society can flourish.


A good example of dropping the minimum wage would be In n’ Out burgers on the west coast. They pay their employees $12 an hour starting. It’s the highest paying fast food joint around. Because of it, the workers’ productivity is externally high. Everyone wants to keep their good paying job. Because of the high productivity, burgers are a lower price but of GREAT quality.



economics 101 people

edit on 6-2-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-2-2013 by camaro68ss because: (no reason given)

Kind of a silly argument. There's no law preventing anyone from paying more than minimum wage.

Exactly!!!

how many billion dollar companies pay their burger fryers $20 an hr?

Yeahhhhhhhhh

Lets all be paid slave wages... like they are in developing countries.

Yeah, lets not.

Originally posted by WaterBottle
Yeahhhhhhhhh

Lets all be paid slave wages... like they are in developing countries.

Yeah, lets not.

right after they take ur guns.. LOL

It's weird how the people always screaming about government tyranny have absolutely no problem supporting policies that would make way for corporate tyranny.

There is already no minimum wage..

It is called CHINA!

Which is why millions of American jobs have moved to China and the US economy is suffering. Yet I do not see those companies in China offering a good wage ?

reply to post by camaro68ss


Those union "thugs" are the reaso for 40 hour work weeks, sick time so you dont get fired for the flu, vacation, workplace safety and company accountability if you get hurt on the job, workmans comp and the MIDDLE CLASS that once made this country the greatest place.

Speaking of MSM, your ideas pretty much mirror Fox News views. You also said in a corrupt free world. Corruption runs rampid from the companies down to the unions, even on the local level. There has tp be some safeguards in place or else we would be working 16-20 hours a day for pennies and commiting suicide on the job like those in China. China is the model, right?

I live in Michigan where Right to Work just passed. The Governor slipped it through a lame duck holiday session claiming it was about bringing jobs to Michigan. He even cited Indiana as the model. I have been to Indiana, I will pass. That state is like the armpit of the country. The companies he spoke of that moved jobs to Indiana already had the contracts in place before Right to Work. Oh yeah and about a week ago the Gov admitted it wasnt about jobs.

I worked for a union company for 6 years. I quit to take a job with a non union job. I am speaking from both sides. They are a necessary evil. They do protect a few bad apples but more importantly they protect good workerswho may need that protection for a reason such as an illness or sick family member.

Basically in a perfect world free markets would be better. The world is not perfect, its corrupt and I would take minimum wage laws over a free market Walmart economy.

Originally posted by leemachino
reply to post by camaro68ss

 

Those union "thugs" are the reaso for 40 hour work weeks, sick time so you dont get fired for the flu, vacation, workplace safety and company accountability if you get hurt on the job, workmans comp and the MIDDLE CLASS that once made this country the greatest place.

Speaking of MSM, your ideas pretty much mirror Fox News views. You also said in a corrupt free world. Corruption runs rampid from the companies down to the unions, even on the local level. There has tp be some safeguards in place or else we would be working 16-20 hours a day for pennies and commiting suicide on the job like those in China. China is the model, right?

I live in Michigan where Right to Work just passed. The Governor slipped it through a lame duck holiday session claiming it was about bringing jobs to Michigan. He even cited Indiana as the model. I have been to Indiana, I will pass. That state is like the armpit of the country. The companies he spoke of that moved jobs to Indiana already had the contracts in place before Right to Work. Oh yeah and about a week ago the Gov admitted it wasnt about jobs.

I worked for a union company for 6 years. I quit to take a job with a non union job. I am speaking from both sides. They are a necessary evil. They do protect a few bad apples but more importantly they protect good workerswho may need that protection for a reason such as an illness or sick family member.

Basically in a perfect world free markets would be better. The world is not perfect, its corrupt and I would take minimum wage laws over a free market Walmart economy.

Sorry buddy, Henry Ford established the 40 hour work week. Not your union buddy's, the union modeled there work ethics from Ford. All free markets. Sounds like you watch to much CNN. I don't watch tv so no fox news, sounds like you watch them alot to know if it's the same view so I'll take your word for it.

Originally posted by camaro68ss
I take it non of you even read what i had to say? you dont even have a counter argument, just one liners And believes that are feed to you by the MSM that are not even your own.

That's because your premise is so completely flawed and deluded that it barely justifies a counter-argument. It's just common sense to most people (intelligent, rational people, who aren't trying to lie to themselves or spread pro-1%'er, corporatist propaganda, that is) that your idea is flat-out wrong.

Originally posted by camaro68ss
Free market principals would bring those jobs back, but instead the union thugs drive up the wages, lowering productivity and force owners to ship jobs over seas to more competitive markets.

you can make a case that once the Minimum wage was founded, jobs started shipping over seas

And you actually defeated your own argument, with this one. Why do you suppose corporations outsource their jobs to overseas workers? 99% of the time it's not because the work is of higher quality than they could get here. It's because they can get away with paying so much less for the work. They already outsource labor so they can get around minimum wage laws. And if minimum wage was abolished, they would pay workers in the US those same, insanely low wages-- not somehow generously, miraculously decide they wanted to pay more than they have to, as you so ridiculously claim. In fact, our unemployment rate would be much lower, if so many scumbag corporations weren't allowed to outsource labor in this way. Yet another way "the 1%" is raping and pillaging our country.

Originally posted by Bilk22
Kind of a silly argument. There's no law preventing anyone from paying more than minimum wage.

Exactly. If what OP says was true, then more companies would already be doing this. But they're not. They're giving our jobs to China and India. I notice how several people have pointed this out, yet OP has been unable to come up with even the smallest, relevant counter-argument... but instead is steadfastly, stubbornly repeating and sticking by his really really incorrect and ignorant point.

Originally posted by camaro68ss
Sorry buddy, Henry Ford established the 40 hour work week. Not your union buddy's, the union modeled there work ethics from Ford. All free markets. Sounds like you watch to much CNN. I don't watch tv so no fox news, sounds like you watch them alot to know if it's the same view so I'll take your word for it.

Sure, and maybe he gave every worker a milkshake and a backrub at the end of each shift, and a pony for the kids at Christmas time. But Henry Ford is dead. And as far as I can see there are very few, if any like him around today. Just a lot of every-man-for-himself mentality to go around. Just a lot of mega wealthy corporations that would rather pay sweatshop child labor a nickle an hour just so they can still charge $100+ for a pair of sneakers, which cost $5 to assemble. (While the white-collar workers in those same companies make six figures or better.) Just a lot of domestic employers hiring illegal immigrants to work for them, knowing they can pay the illegals less than minimum wage. Just a lot of domestic employers paying their workers the minimum amount they can get away with by law, already, even though many know and understand that this is barely enough to live on, even at 40 hours a week. But of course, according to you, if these laws which protect workers were abolished, these same employers would suddenly decide-- "hey... if I pay another $5/hr even though I don't have to, I bet my workers would be more productive, so I'll get right on that!"

I'm not sure where your deluded, draconian/utopian fantasy comes from, but you should certainly reconsider.

But of course you won't. Even though every single person who has seen this thread, has pretty much told you that you're wrong, and explained why-- you won't listen.

Just like no matter how much one part of your premise may be true (that increased wages will create happier workers and greater quality / productivity) most employers won't listen to reason and the voice of human decency but will instead opt for greed, and slightly fatter profit margins for their shoddy goods or services.