The Pledge of Allegiance is Brainwashing

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
reply to post by seabag

 

You know, if we didn't get taxed on virtually everything, I'd be inclined to agree with you. The problem is, taxing the hell out of us and then expecting us all to pledge our allegiance to the system (Yeah, I see your "ideals" and "values" argument... but at the end of teh day the damn pledge is still intended to be allegiance to the current US system.) is the governmental version of the Stockholm Syndrome.

Well, when you’re that cynical I can see why it’s offensive.

Do you have a problem with the national anthem, too?

I bet people who think like you are a lot of fun to hang out with at a ball game! It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve dodged a bottle or 2.

Originally posted by seabag
Well, when you’re that cynical I can see why it’s offensive.

Do you have a problem with the national anthem, too?

I bet people who think like you are a lot of fun to hang out with at a ball game! It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve dodged a bottle or 2.

Yeah, I honestly don't see the point of starting a game with the anthem. Especially considering for everything but NFL and NCAA we have to deal with anthems for both the US and Canada. (Braves' fan since I was first watching baseball at 6 or 7 Y/O. I've come to freaking HATE "Oh Canada" thanks to the damn Blue Jays.)

I wouldn't throw any bottles at you regardless, man. You're entitled to your opinion as am I. This is a political thread, so politics are being discussed... if it was a thread about sports, I'd just as soon not bring up politics at all. So yeah, I think I am pretty fun to hang out with at a game. I just tend to see being expected to declare your love for a country you're pretty much forced to fund is pretty similar to a divorced man being faithfull to his ex-wife because he's paying her alimony.

ETA: I'm 100% in favor of allowing states to secede from the US. (worst atrocity against the Constitution occurred when Lincoln violated the Confederate states' rights by attacking them for seceding. I think it would be personally hypocritical for me to simultaneously support states' right to secede and a pledge which advocates the indivisability of the union.

Brainwashing has such a negative connotation as does indoctrination and the rest of the words people have used in this thread.

How is it hurting people?

Would the country or even just you be any better off if the kids were taught to hate America?

Would you teach your kids to listen to you and love you and work to help the family or would you tell them to just decide if their parents are worthy of their respect and love and work to help the family out if they want to?

I teach my kids to listen to me and their teachers and the police and other people that are in charge. Is that a bad thing to do?

reply to post by WaterBottle


You have hit on two points which makes me love this country.
(1) You have the right to be disagreeable if you want too.
(2) You don't have the right to not be offended.
GOD !! I love this country !!

As a German living in the UK and with parents that were young during WW2, I see this pledge through different eyes.
In a way it is nice to have a way to recite your love for your country. We in Germany used to do that a lot but now we are not allowed anymore. I don't know why though because making a gesture with your hand and rattling down a poem that makes it seem that your country is the best seems like a good idea [at least reading some of the posts on here]. But Americans ]mainly] told us Germans that it was a bad idea, probably because it can lead to big headedness and eases attacking other countries a lot. So yeah I understand why we [the Germans were to to stop].

But if this is true, then it must be also true for America. A warfaring country that has been involved in many more wars than Germany. Having grown up in Germany, I watched a lot of east German TV, where the "Pioniere" [Pioneers], kids dressed in beige, singing patriotic songs featured a lot and who were very patriotic.
There was talk about how brilliant the country is, they sang in the morning songs about E-Germany and communism. Just before school. The kids made hand gestures as well. [hand on temple]. Just like the american kids.

So please enlighten me here Americans. If there is no problem with children reciting pledges to their great country, then why is it frowned upon when people in N-Korea or E-Germany or in Nazi Germany do/did it? After all they did/do it with just as much enthusiasm/boredom as your children.

Children are easily impressed and when something seems normal, you can build on that and introduce the next bit.
But don't despair because in general I don't think the pledge is a bad thing IF:

- Anyone who doesn't want to say it is not punished or looked down at/ told to get out of the country etc
- There is no mentioning of god
- It is only said by people over 18 / adults

If those criteria are not met then there IS something sinister about it. I know that I feel uncomfortable seeing American children reciting it because it reminds me a lot of other things.

Originally posted by Mayson
Would you teach your kids to listen to you and love you and work to help the family or would you tell them to just decide if their parents are worthy of their respect and love and work to help the family out if they want to?

Whoa. Your apparent leap from choice of national allegiance to love of their own family concerns the hell out of me. The United States of America isn't my parent nor is it my kids' parent. That strikes me as a bizarre and very Orwellian comparison.

Originally posted by WaterBottle

Originally posted by bjax9er
so don't say the pledge if you don't like it.

we all know you hate America.
no need to repeat it again.

It shouldn't be forced on 5 year olds all around the nation. I guess you love brainwashing children.

Not to mention the fact that the kids don't understand what they are saying. Heck, most of my students don't even get the words right.

I don't force mine to say the pledge, but I do make them be quiet and respectful while others say it.

Having looked at the video, and read through the posting the following can be stated:

While some would say it is wrong to recite the pledge of Allegiance, due to the phrase of "One Nation Under God." And others would say it does not matter, but I can only think back, and I do remember this time, where the country was not divided, or fractured.

There was a time that before any and all sporting events that took place they played the National anthem. If you went to plays or movies, or concerts, the National Anthem was played. The pledge was done every day in all schools and in most government buildings, with a reverance and thought about the country. Seems like back then, welfare was shuttered, and most did not want it, it seemed like that while you may not have had enough, but you had what you needed. There was a time when you could leave the front door unlocked, did not have to worry about your children and everyone in short took care of their neighbor. If someone was in trouble, it was not the government that stepped up but we actually helped each other. There was no division in the people of the country, we were all Americans, and that ment something. The country was a symbol to countries around the world. Even our most hallowed documents, such as the Decleration of Independence, and the Constitution of the United States were models and used to help many countries get started and base their governments off of.

Then we take away the pledge, it is optional and then fought over and removed, and while some think it is brainwashing, the question is have you looked around? The country is no longer Americans, now you have groups that gather together, and it is a nation filled with all sorts of groups. We are African Americans, or Muslim Americans, or Christian Americans, or Gay Americans, or this or that group Americans. While it may seem like brainwashing, it did serve to do one thing that no other thing has done since, it bound a country together with one single identity, where now we are bound together by multiple idenitities splitting at the seams and starting to rot from the interior.

Originally posted by Hongkongphooey

Originally posted by smwoop
do you live in the US?

If yes: then maybe you should move out and see if you dont agree with it.

If no: then maybe you should move in and see how awesome it is minus corrupt politicians trying to shove crap bills down American's throat.

Obviously you don't travel much do you? Why are Americans always saying how awsome the USA is when most of them have never travelled and have no idea what other countries are like except what they are fed by news propaganda or fairytales?

Yes there are some awsome things about the USA, but there are many awsome things about the UK, Spain, Germany, France, Sweden, South Africa, Italy, Turkey, Israel, UAE, Brazil, Peru, Panama, Japan, China, Thailand, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

Point being that USA is not that special and its funny about how the 'brainwashed' scream about their freedom without realising that many other nations are just as free or even moreso and when someone from within critisises the brainwashing they are told that they should leave! So you have freedom but not allowed to critisise? have I got that right?

American here..and my passport looks like it got in a crossfire between armys using stamps as bullets. (aka, I been around).

America IS awesome!
It however is not unique..there are many awesome places on earth (and some right pits). The problem with the nationalists are they think America is unique in being awesome...
Travel tends to bring some realization to them.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by SilentKoala

Originally posted by smwoop
nah my school stopped us from doing it thanks to people like yourself.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your nation, even at a young age.

I'll tell you something wrong with it - it's completely illogical. You didn't choose the nation you were born in. Pride should be reserved for the things you actually chose.

You say something interesting here.

Your right. Not many people earned citizenship here. They were simply born into it without any effort...
Personally I think citizenship laws need to be rewritten..citizens must pass a test or something (very fair, requiring something though..be it some sort of service to state, or..something agreeable to most)..this should then be called the citizens pledge, and only citizens of course allowed to vote in any election.

Won't happen of course..but it would be a good start. If I was given a nation and was a founding father, I wouldn't make citizenship a birthright...it would be properly earned.

we already do service to the state, sometimes a very onerous service in some cases. It is called jury duty. My sister in law suffered tremendous financial hardship doing this particular duty because they kept arbitrarily extending her grand jury duty to over a year when she was struggling to find a job and pay her bills. To cap it off, most of the cases she had to hear were over crimes committed by ILLEGAL aliens, but that is a beef for another topic. And men still have to register for military service don't they? And paying a hefty portion of our income as taxes to support many policies we vehemently disagree with, while not a condition of citizenship, certainly is doing a service to this country.

As for the Pledge, I love it, I'm happy to say it NOW, by choice, now that I have traveled enough and met enough immigrants to truly appreciate the gift of my citizenship given to me by the immigrants from whom I am descended. But as a child, it was a meaningless rote exercise forced on me by authority figures and I did rebel and resent it until I got older and understood it all better. I hope that when it is recited now, it is by choice and it is by people who do have some sense of appreciation for this country and some sense of responsibility for what it can be in their future and who have a feeling that they share in its opportunities.

Of course we have to overthrow our corporate reptilian luciferian overlords first.

Americans are like North Koreans, tehy enjoy being slaves.

That an adult of any time thinks the pledge of allegiance is acceptable, never mind praise worthy, is eye opening. America is a scary place indeed.

Originally posted by brandiwine14
But me and others like me want morals to stay a part of who we are. Anyone who actually takes a step back and looks at our beginning and looks and listens and reads the words for what they are knows it's good in all ways and in no way evil intended. The problem I see is when people dissect every single aspect of every single word. We could do this on and on and make everything we have ever learned or thought something evil when really it isn't at all.

The issue I have with this statement is the word "morals".
Morality should never be forefront of anything outside of family and maybe your local religious place for teaching. Morality is very subjective and hit and miss in regards to bettering humanity.
Principles now..that is what is truly missing in todays society.
Morality may allow you to beat up gay people, or call someone whom dresses outside of your approval some harsh word..morality may have you shoot someone because they believe something different
to hell with morals..morality is without principles.

Principles allows for greater humanity.such as simply not to hurt a human regardless of who they are unless you or your loved one is in physical danger..or having a principle of allowing others to have liberties however they choose and in turn expect the same.

Some suggest principles and morals are interchangeable..but the reality is, they are day and night. morality kept slavery..principles freed the slaves. Morality starts wars..principles ends them.

Now, consider how this effects the pledge (and how it is actually more morality than principles)

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA and to the republic..."
in 200 years, the flag may be the same, and the republic may still exist in a peoples republic of north korea fashion...does that mean you still owe allegiance to that country that no longer follows the same principles as the intent?

Personally, my allegiance is on the principles of liberty and progression. This can still more or less be found in the USA..and so for now, my alliegience is for here...hopefully for the rest of my life these very basic principles will be here...
For me though, the national anthem is more noteworthy than the pledge..the anthem reminds us what we fought for...the pledge only says "obey no matter what". They should simply replace the pledge with standing for the nat antm at the beginning of school...if they wanted patriots verses nationalists.

allegiances change
surely at some point our founders allegiance was with england and the magna carta..... until it was decided the magna carta was not sufficient and that the government in england was repressive
ideas evolve over time and it would be folly to think that our constitution and way of life are the be all end all of social development

the argument that youre pledging allegiance to an idea is downright silly
the idea of freedom and personal rights and responsibility are not uniquely american no matter how much certain individuals would like to think they are
these ideas are almost universal and if you need to recite a pledge to assure yourself that you hold allegiance to these ideas.... well there are probably some very serious personal issues at play

and personally i will never pledge allegiance to a republic.... ever
the modern world calls for a modern form of government
no politicians no corporations no lies
we need a true democracy and there is no reason that the united states today can not support a true democracy
and yes i am well aware of the arguments against a true democracy and need only point to our current democratic republic to illustrate that these problems already exist
if every voter was required to take a test before being registered to show they understand at least what the issues at hand are these problems would largely dissolve (and the only excuse for not being able to access information in this day and age is apathy)

we have the technology necessary to govern ourselves..... all we need is the will to do so

I've always thought it was a bit creepy, especially once I got to high school. Gotta love the Whitest Kids U Know.

Originally posted by sirhumperdink
we need a true democracy and there is no reason that the united states today can not support a true democracy
and yes i am well aware of the arguments against a true democracy and need only point to our current democratic republic to illustrate that these problems already exist

Democracy is a nightmare government..a lynch mob is a democracy.
no thanks.
I prefer less common folk...give me a council over a mob any day. Actually, I would prefer a advanced computer dictator most of all...if it was infallible (they aren't..this is just fantasy talk) and was coded for security of the nation, liberty of the people, and stability of the economy.

I may not trust politicians often, but I never trust the common person.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
-Winston Churchill

reply to post by SaturnFX


im aware of that
but consider the fact that regardless of what restrictions you put in place political representatives will always be able to be influenced by powerful individuals or groups and no longer represent the people
a democracy can work with a well educated and informed population capable of critical thinking (and that is going to be where things go eventually) currently thats not true of the united states but it never will be so long as our current form of government (and culture) is in place
it will be a long nasty transition... theres no doubt about that (they always have been) but continuing along the same broken path we have been will only provide a small speed bump and make the inevitable transition that much more harsh
the world has changed drastically.... yet our forms of governance have remained stagnant.... duct tape and super glue can only do so much

btw churchills quote can also be used as an argument against a republic because those same idiotic voters will be voting for representatives which frequently dupe them with ease in the name of personal gain (and are almost certainly a large part of the reason why people are so misinformed or uninformed and incapable of making rational decisions in the first place.... which obviously creates a cyclical problem that only gets worse)

Originally posted by sirhumperdink
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

im aware of that
but consider the fact that regardless of what restrictions you put in place political representatives will always be able to be influenced by powerful individuals or groups and no longer represent the people
a democracy can work with a well educated and informed population capable of critical thinking (and that is going to be where things go eventually) currently thats not true of the united states but it never will be so long as our current form of government (and culture) is in place
it will be a long nasty transition... theres no doubt about that (they always have been) but continuing along the same broken path we have been will only provide a small speed bump and make the inevitable transition that much more harsh
the world has changed drastically.... yet our forms of governance have remained stagnant.... duct tape and super glue can only do so much

btw churchills quote can also be used as an argument against a republic because those same idiotic voters will be voting for representatives which frequently dupe them with ease in the name of personal gain (and are almost certainly a large part of the reason why people are so misinformed or uninformed and incapable of making rational decisions in the first place.... which obviously creates a cyclical problem that only gets worse)

edit on 4-2-2013 by sirhumperdink because: (no reason given)

The (theoretical) solution then is a constitutional republic.
Sure, voters can elect a rock star if they want for representation, but the politician is bound full stop by the constitution set in place to begin with.

This governmental style is not perfect, but it is pretty much the best of a bad lot (until we get strong AI that is incorruptible...then we can let the computers decide, away from our corrupt and stupid thinking).

Originally posted by SaturnFX

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
-Winston Churchill

Who doesn't like a good quote;

“Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it....”
― George Bernard Shaw

“Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious”
― Oscar Wilde

“People who enjoy waving flags don't deserve to have one”
― Banksy, Wall and Piece

Originally posted by region331

Originally posted by SaturnFX

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
-Winston Churchill

Who doesn't like a good quote;

“Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it....”
― George Bernard Shaw

“Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious”
― Oscar Wilde

“People who enjoy waving flags don't deserve to have one”
― Banksy, Wall and Piece

edit on 4-2-2013 by region331 because:

Although the quotes are good-ish..they are incorrect. They are discussing nationalism..

For instance. a patriot will break their back building a home for homeless persons due to love of what this nation can be.
A nationalist will pretend homeless people don't exist.

A patriot will point out the flaws in the country in order that it may be addressed and improved...knowing this country can do better.
A nationalist will scorn the patriot whom points out the flaws.

The words are different..for some reason, the word patriot is often confused with nationalist..and nationalists think they are patriots (when they are almost mocking patriotism with their shill drone behavior)

na·tion·al·ism
Noun
1.Patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
22.An extreme form of this, esp. marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.


pa·tri·ot·ism
devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

reply to post by SaturnFX


thats a constitutional democratic republic and thats what we have now (working out swell huh?).... looks good on paper and it worked for a good while but the world has changed and our laws, government, and systems of commerce need to reflect that or slowly fade into obscurity
the populace needs to undergo some fairly fundamental changes regardless of the form of government if we expect it to function properly
and if and when that does occur a democracy will be the best option