The 2012 shift that DID and DO happen

reply to post by sulaw

I just want to point out that you are blatently de-railing a thread that was created under Meta-Physics and Prophecy Forum.

Actually, the forum is the 2012 forum. The forum is titled properly: "2012 Information & Conspiracies".

Additionally, if you haven't gotten in touch with your own inner-child/higher self would I ever expect someone who only looks at tangible evidence to understand where Raud was coming from when he orignally created this thread.

I see claims and proposals in the OP, but not anything to show why these are made. It does say that this is real. It states that things, not clear what the things are, have in fact happened and are continuing to happen.

Bringing guns and WW1 into this thread was just outlandish and way off topic. Nor could I hold you to any credibility to sticking to topic that is obviously taboo and not in your realm of understanding.

I was showing that other times also matched to today. The issue is not to huff and puff and say that other events are outlandish. This is the opportunity for the other poster to differentiate between what I posted and they are thinking. It is a means of clarifying the issue.

The next sentence I quote is fluff and of no interest in the 2012 forum.

This is my perception of bringing Guns to a Meta-Physic Debate/Thread

This is not the metaphysics forum. Maybe you took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

Faith. I would rather have blind faith and believe in the Divine then to walk these lonely streets with 0 faith and 0 beliefs in any type of Higher Power.

I'm glad that suits you.

PS. I had to star your next post.

reply to post by Raud

Are you running for Mr. Agnostic '13?

Probably not.

Personally, I make a great deal about the difference between the telegraph and the internet.

The main difference is control of the information being sent. Next is the volume of information. Newspapers and printed material were abundant and kept info. The internet though has made it much easier for con artist, charlatans, and hoaxers to prey on people.

Also, you seem to view "faith" as something malign. If that is the grounds you stand, I'll let you keep doing that. I have no stake in taking it from you.

Faith does not support what is real. Faith avoids the need for evidence. Faith is applied often. We expect people to do the right thing or the wrong thing. We have faith in people. We have faith in systems such as medicine. Our faith might be that medicine do-not-wrong or do-no-right. We have faith in lots of things. On the other hand we can understand that medicine has limitations, that people are not all the same, and that complex system often do not behave as expected.

Keep questioning everything, by all means do. But don't forget to also look for answers.

Isn't that what I did from the start? I asked how you could tell this was real. The OP says this is real. How can I tell?

reply to post by sulaw

Right so the fact is that Raud is having an experiance. Can you discredit where and what's happening with him because everything is happening internally? I'd say that's pretty shady of any person or individual to do that.

I've never question whether or not Raud had an experience. He said he did and I took him for his word. It has been stated that others are experiencing the same. How do we know these experiences are related or from the same or similar source?

I know more people like Raud who are having these types of experiances more than people who are not. Is this not proof enough? Can you say that since 2012 happened you haven't experianced "Lost Time" "Prophetic Thoughts" "Time has speed up" the list goes on.

So to people like Raud I commend for saying something, makes people like me who are empathetic and actually can feel and see other peoples energies smile.

I would lend you my eyes for proof but then how would I see this game of the physical we are all playing.

As pointed out countless times in the 2012 forum time has not sped up. No one could tell if time speeds up. There are lots of claims in 2012 like stars in the wrong place, the Moon and Sun rising or setting at the wrong times, tides out of whack, no tides, missing time, extra time, and the list goes on. None of these claims panned out. Each was a mistake by the poster. It happens.

What I find interesting is that people tie their interesting personal experiences to 2012. I also find it interesting that people think that something is happening to cause people to experience the same thing. How do people know it is related? How do they know this is real?

As they say 2012 was a spiritual date
i always viewed it as the end of one age and the beginning of another.

reply to post by stereologist


Listen here mate,
how could I ever tell you that this is real? You treat that argument like some sort for trump up your sleeve. But in this case you can't trump because that like of linear, simplistic thinking doesn't fit the subject. I don't mean to offend, I just want you to understand what we (me and others on this thread) have been trying to make you understand. Besides, your argumentation do appear very agnostic, to me at least. There is nothing wrong with being that but discussing the topic at hand with an agnostic is a waste of bandwidth.

How can I tell you that this is real, even if I tried?
I've been studying at university level, for quite some time (and with rather good grades for that matter). I've taken history, political science, social anthropology and international relations. OK, that gives me a pretty detailed picture of the world and how its inhabitants work in group. I have observed historical processes, theorized around them, criticized, reevaluated, redefined, come up with conclusions that has made even my teachers raise their eyebrows.
I don't want to brag here, believe me that is not the way I work, but I struggle here to meet your demands on credentials.

Alongside the above, I've had a just as exciting spiritual development, one that has been going on all my life. I am very lucky for having been brought up in a very tolerant and open family situation. Thus, my search has not been hindered by any set spiritual value system or fixed world view.

Taken the two together, I have made conclusions, I've even felt how it all falls into place (I know that's the part you just don't understand). I have gained a holistic perspective, something you clearly do not possess at the moment. And most important, and as I wrote in the OP, I am far from the only one experiencing this change. Clearly, you are not one whom which I can share these emotions but that is something you have to deal with, not I.
I can go on yapping about how my spiritual development came along, how I've learned to understand the concept of "God". I can describe and theorize different theoretical and philosophical perspectives until the cows come home but it won't matter because if you can't connect with your heart that way and experience these feelings by your self totally independent of me it is of no use.

I'll give you a great example that you can do at home: read a book called The Essence of Decision. It has nothing to do with spirituality or 2012 what so ever but it will teach you that even the most obvious things are maybe not so obvious. Things happen on all sorts of levels, all the time, at once.
People speak of the "imagined reality" as if it was something less real that some sort of positivistic "objective" reality that to me seems as much more questionable than the subjective one. Even more so if you add the spiritual dimension where the subjective and the collective meet with no need for the "objective". Ever heard of the "God-molechule"?

Thus, your question remains unanswerable, at least in text form and this whole discussion is really losing my interest.

Why did you even come here with such an question? What did you wish for us to answer you? If your aim was only ridicule and trolling you've had your way already like so many many others have lately. We've grown quite tired of that. Start your own thread and rant all you want. This thread had the intention to be motivational and happy. You made me change my rhetoric and I don't like that.

In an attempt to reset this thread on its track, I'd like to say how I've understood the hijacking of the 2012 phenomena.

Humankind appears to have an appetite for sensation, at least modern society does. Looking at some of the classical literature from as far back as Ancient Greece; great wonders, dramatic overthrow and grand drama seems to dominate popular culture. Needless to say, so even today.
Fantasies and worries about "the end of the world" has been with humankind for all of the written history, at least. This is not an entirely faulty concept; it carries with it an idea that the world is finite, that abundance is not to be taken for granted and that the collective consequences of our actions might trigger some sort of "cosmic reckoning". Other than that, apocalyptic visions makes of one hell of a theme for grand drama! In religious texts in doubles as a reminder of the divine wrath which we are supposed to fear and avoid at all costs.
Come the Cold War and the MAD world, the apocalypse suddenly turned endogenous for humanity. Popular media had no shortage of ideas for scrips.

Some years before 2012, the whole Mayan "prophecy" surfaced in mainstream society. Coming with it was somewhat cryptic ideas about "the end of an age" (and the beginning of a new one, in good cyclical order).
Too bad the entertainment industry had other aims.
Having been brought up for generations with the thirst for unimaginable destruction (at least fictional) we were all too soon on the bandwagon that claimed 2012 as the end of the world according to the Mayans, totally disregarding the bigger picture. It just wasn't as exciting as the notion that the world would blow up.

Any grown person would know that reality is not like in the movies...or do they? We have become such obedient mass-consumers of entertainment that we can't tell the difference sometimes. Our expectations on the world are sometimes out of proportion. I mean, how likely is it that all thinkable natural disasters would all unleash at once as expected from an apocalypse of Hollywoodian measures? How likely was Nibiru?
Not very. People were looking in the wrong place, expecting all at once and super obvious in accordance to their short attention span (also a product of over-consumption of 24h entertainment).

As media kept feeding us paranoia to further bring income into the entertainment industry people all over the world started to really believe the the world would end in the latter days of 2012.
The irony here is that when it didn't turn out that way, surprise-surprise, the Mayan calendar had to take the fall for it. Had the same ideas been interpreted through the Sumerian or East Asian astrology, or maybe through Ancient Egyptian teachings it would have been the same story for them- hype, then bubble burst and discredit. People had come for the great fireworks but got disappointed, booed and went home, more disillusioned than ever (but slightly relieved at the same time- because now they haven't to worry about if they could go to McDonald's the day after or not).
Business as usual, they thought. Wrong I dare claim. This new time is all but "business as usual". Those days are counted.

For the ones of us who didn't buy into the apocalypse but did notice the Mayan "prognosis" for cosmic influence it is different. For me personally, it has become a whole new way of thinking- rationality and gut-feeling in an outstanding unity! Seeing people "waking up" all around you, seeing the old, rusted institutions crumble and fall and give room for new ones with new values- it is all just too beautiful! And for all this change to come through peoples hearts...that's the most wonderful thing of them all. That we question "the rules of the game" as well as "the game" itself. That we realize that we are simply humans and divine beings at the same time!

In due manner, I think it is vital to clear some things up such as the terminology around the 2012 process.
The date, 2012 was a specific marker, even though experts argue about how to best convert Mayan counting. Still, I regard that date (whichever one it is) just like the way we decided whenever the middle ages started or the renaissance or the atomic age (etc.). The 2012 convergence (a very good term, imo) marks the time when the process has clearly gained motion and has become irreversible (if ever reversible).
"The awakening" is a change in perception - structures - core values, each one affecting the other. All the individuals of the world possess the power to awake, none excluded, none more prominent. The old structures might hold many of us in deep sleep still, which is very understandable, but others have woken up since long time back as well, back in the earliest stages of the process.

The cosmic pulse works like a seed sod, grown to flower, prosper and wither. Now the germ is breaking through the concrete, feeling the gentle touch of the spring sun.

reply to post by Raud

There is nothing wrong with being that but discussing the topic at hand with an agnostic is a waste of bandwidth.

Are you suggesting this is not real? Are you suggesting this is faith based?

I don't want to brag here, believe me that is not the way I work, but I struggle here to meet your demands on credentials.

Does any of that really have anything to do with t he question? No.

And most important, and as I wrote in the OP, I am far from the only one experiencing this change.

I asked how you know that to be correct and you simply repeat the claim.

I can go on yapping about how my spiritual development came along, how I've learned to understand the concept of "God". I can describe and theorize different theoretical and philosophical perspectives until the cows come home but it won't matter because if you can't connect with your heart that way and experience these feelings by your self totally independent of me it is of no use.

This sounds more and more like a personal experience and nothing connected to 2012. It just appears to have happened to you at that date due to your age in life.

Ever heard of the "God-molechule"?

Yes.

Thus, your question remains unanswerable, at least in text form and this whole discussion is really losing my interest.

You've some claims which turn out you seem to be unable to answer. You've spent every post avoiding answers in dodgy ways that would be completely unacceptable in your university classes.

Why did you even come here with such an question? What did you wish for us to answer you? If your aim was only ridicule and trolling you've had your way already like so many many others have lately. We've grown quite tired of that. Start your own thread and rant all you want. This thread had the intention to be motivational and happy. You made me change my rhetoric and I don't like that.

At first I did not think so, but now I am becoming suspicious that this is just another hoax thread put into the 2012 forum. You made statements that this was real and it seems that it is not. You have been adamant in avoiding supporting anything you've claimed.

There have been many posts that want to invoke censorship including this post. Is that what happens at the university level? Do they have lopsided, one sided positions, or do they discuss the various positions in "history, political science, social anthropology and international relations?"

At this point I have to move from asking questions and wondering about this to stating my position.

I think this is another example of the emperor's new clothes. I predicted a while back in this 2012 forum that there would be a few people that simply could not let go of the 2012 claims. They would continue to be uninformed about the Maya and believe in the rubbish pushed out by charlatans such as Arguelles or Calleman. I also predicted that there would be people connecting into this nonsense and "vibrating at a high frequency" did other pointed out they were naked or they simply tired of doing it.

Others have pointed out to me that there are some that claim they can sense this change while others cannot not. It's one of those superiority claims.

I already mentioned how in 1700s a panel showed that animal magnetism was a false concept. That has not stopped animal magnetism from having believers even today. I mentioned other situations in which people also have fallen for false beliefs. 2012 will have a few clinging on for a while. Not surprised. Just as animal magnetism continues to have a few adherents I'm sure 2012 will as well.

I wonder if there are still harmonic convergence clingers today? What about believers in the 5-5-00 great alignment? What about millennialists?

I suggest that it is real and that it is faith that backs it up. It is both sides of the coin at the same time, do you get it? It is not polarized or dualistic in my view, it is holistic and that is why it makes sense. If you only want one side to it, it won't work for you and therefore this discussion leads nowhere.
The same goes with the "God-molechule", it is both physically real and a gateway to the divine (no, I have never obtained or consumed this substance if that is what anyone of you think).

I am sorry if I misunderstood you on the credentials but I though it was an extended part of your demands for "proof". I reckoned the question would emerge sooner or later.

The question on how I know this is happening with others as well is fairly easy to answer: because I have an active communication with different people. I don't know if you do notice but there has been far more post that concur than those opposed in this thread only. I have no idea how many friends you frequent but I tend to avoid sitting alone with my own thoughts all day and engage in discussions with others. That is how I know that I am not alone with this belief. I don't know if I can make it any more simple for you.
Also, even though I am getting pretty tired of repeating this for you; I take together what I see and hear, analyze and conclude that the world is going through change.

If my process of maturity is happening in the same pace as lots and lots of other people of extremely varied age I find that a bit odd. But sure, it might be that way. I personally do not think so and if you want to know why, read the whole thread over again.

OK, so I claim that a convergence is taking place. You say: "show me". I explain. You say: "show me".
That is how I understand the way you make conversation. We write in the same language, still nothing seems to get through. Real annoying.

Another "hoax thread"? A hoax of what? What motives and gains would I have? Did you check how long I've been on ATS? Do I come off like the guy who enjoy a good hoax every now and then?
Don't insult my intellect.

Invoke censorship? Just what the hell are you talking about?

reply to post by Raud

In an attempt to reset this thread on its track, I'd like to say how I've understood the hijacking of the 2012 phenomena.

2012 was never hijacked. It was a hoax to start with. Everythign from doom porn to a "shift in consciousness" is all made up. It's a scam.

Some years before 2012, the whole Mayan "prophecy" surfaced in mainstream society. Coming with it was somewhat cryptic ideas about "the end of an age" (and the beginning of a new one, in good cyclical order).

To clarify the situation there are no Mayan prophecies associated with the end of the long count calendar. Another Mayan calendar that also ends on that day predicts a shortage of corn and squash. That did not happen. The long count calendar is not a cyclic calendar. It is linear. There is no "end of an age" associated with the calendar.

As media kept feeding us paranoia

The media did not feed the end of the world claims. That came from authors of books. Hollywood simply cashed in the cash cow of 2012. It led to sales of older fiction such as books by Velikovsky and Sitchin. It led to sales of books and claims by Calleman, Nancy Lieder, and others. It involved all sorts of asinine websites pushing claims of the Gulf Stream stopping, pole shifts, magnetic reversal disasters, cometary impacts, RVers, volcanic activity, quakes, etc.

The media did not push 2012. It followed 2012. 2012 is the product of a group of scam artists feeding on the wallets of the gullible.

For the ones of us who didn't buy into the apocalypse but did notice the Mayan "prognosis" for cosmic influence it is different.

Please tell us all about this. I say it does not exist. There is no Mayan "prognosis" for 2012. Never has been.

The 2012 convergence (a very good term, imo) marks the time when the process has clearly gained motion and has become irreversible (if ever reversible).

Do you have anything to back this up or is this as made up as the claims of Arguelles as far back as 1984? Does anyone know why all of this 2012 baloney begins in 1984? There is no mention of any of this before that date.

reply to post by Raud

I suggest that it is real and that it is faith that backs it up. It is both sides of the coin at the same time, do you get it?

I get it quite well. It is not real, but you wish it were.

The same goes with the "God-molechule", it is both physically real and a gateway to the divine (no, I have never obtained or consumed this substance if that is what anyone of you think).

It is not a gateway to the divine. It simply tricks people.

I am sorry if I misunderstood you on the credentials but I though it was an extended part of your demands for "proof". I reckoned the question would emerge sooner or later.

I never ask for credentials. I never post mine.

The question on how I know this is happening with others as well is fairly easy to answer: because I have an active communication with different people. I don't know if you do notice but there has been far more post that concur than those opposed in this thread only.

This is a problem called sampling. You are dealing with a biased sample. Please do not fall for the logical fallacy of an appeal to numbers. But what you do state is that you hang out with like minded people and thus within your circle of acquaintances there is some agreement. That has no bearing on being felt by lots of people.

OK, so I claim that a convergence is taking place. You say: "show me". I explain. You say: "show me".
That is how I understand the way you make conversation. We write in the same language, still nothing seems to get through. Real annoying.

I asked how I could tell this is real and you provided nothing but a weak attempt to not provide the information.

Another "hoax thread"? A hoax of what? What motives and gains would I have? Did you check how long I've been on ATS? Do I come off like the guy who enjoy a good hoax every now and then?
Don't insult my intellect.

Invoke censorship? Just what the hell are you talking about?

It does seem like a hoax thread. You may not realize it, you have to take the time to look and open your mind and heart.

Censorship? Here is what you posted. You make it clear that you do not want certain information discussed. You'd rather have a group of lackeys all nodding their heads in agreement and not a real discussion.

Why did you even come here with such an question? What did you wish for us to answer you? If your aim was only ridicule and trolling you've had your way already like so many many others have lately. We've grown quite tired of that. Start your own thread and rant all you want.

reply to post by stereologist


Now you made your stand:
all of this is "baloney" to you. Therefore you are not here to expand your views but to slander. It is so much more easy to mock than to make a stand. I welcome a good debate but since you labelled the topic like you did all further discussion seems pointless to me.
To me and others it is not "baloney". This thread is dedicated to them/us.

You are "trolling", whether you intend to or not.
Please don't.

reply to post by Raud

Now you made your stand:
all of this is "baloney" to you. Therefore you are not here to expand your views but to slander. It is so much more easy to mock than to make a stand. I welcome a good debate but since you labelled the topic like you did all further discussion seems pointless to me.
To me and others it is not "baloney". This thread is dedicated to them/us.

You are "trolling", whether you intend to or not.
Please don't.

Please apply your university experience to this discussion.

I have repeatedly asked for something that would show me that this is real. You have refused and have fallen back on faith. You have pushed the 2012 cliche that you can feel it but propose that I cannot.

I am shifting towards the conclusion that this is not real.

I have made it clear I hope that the Mayan connection you mention does not exist. I pointed out that there are no cycles in the linear calendar called the long count. There is no "end of an age" associated with a linear calendar. It seems the basis or starting point for this whatever you claim is incorrect.

Your claim that many people are interested appears to be due to what is academically referred to as a sampling problem. These things happen.

I also believe that your claim that 2012 was pushed by the media is incorrect. The media as you call it was not the MSM, but rather smaller players gouging out profits from the wallets of the gullible.

In academia there are often cases where it is necessary to decide between what happened and what people think happened. In this case you claim something is real. I ask how do you know it is real? You avoid the answer offering no way to test if this is real or not. You suggested some sort of superiority claim in which I would not be able to test whether or not this is real.

You don't try to pull any of these tactics in your classes do you? That would as you say "raise their [teachers] eyebrows."

There is hardly any video I can recommend any more than this one right here, and it is only 8 minutes long! The video contains Bruce Lipton's scientific view on the system change happening right now. For humans, this system change equals going from a fear oriented reality, to a love oriented reality.

There is really nothing new about changing his or hers reality from motivated by fear to motivated by love. Many people have done this over the course of our history, famous ones are Buddha and Jesus. What is really exciting in these times is that we are now given the opportunity to do this together as a species on earth. Being open to it is merely all you need for it to start, and then comes the tough but divinely rewarding road of 'awakening'.

When humanity succeeds in this task (we might not live to see that, and not everyone will want to be part of it anyhow) what will happen is that we will come together as the organism we have always been. Now, this does not mean that we will literally all become as one, it only means that the individual cells will start to cooperate instead of fighting and fending for themselves.

Like mentioned already in this thread, in different ways; that which is above, is also below. That which is below, is also above. In the physical world we can see this by how electrons spin around a nucleus, how planets spin around a sun, how suns spin around a black hole (and so on?)
Within we have some 50 trillion cells, all working together to be our body. If all these cells were to fight each other, death would be imminent. The same goes for how we operate on our planet. With 7 billion cells basically working for themselves, we are turning out to be our own destruction. We have certainly done plenty to ruin the planet we find ourselves on, and if we kept this way we would surely extinct ourselves sooner rather than later.

Fear is what has kept us from aligning to all the other cells on this planet. Fear separates, it tries to usher control over others, it defends, it holds back, it fights to survive, it hoards information and communication, it breaks down your own system as it breaks down our system.

The oncoming collective shift then, from fear to love, is arguably the biggest change in human history. When one cell chooses to rid itself of fears, what is then found within, which has always been there, is unconditional love. This cell then stops working against others for its own exaltation, it lives and let live.

Love allows, it lets life flourish, it works for the cell and for all other cells, it is truthful, it is evolution. Fear is chaos, love is order. Fear is disharmony, love is harmony. Fear regress, love evolves. The changes one sees in himself when choosing love over fear is stupendous alone, but to be allowed to be on this planet in the times where humans collectively work towards love and cooperation will be nothing less than a divine.

I don't remember who said it, but it was something like this; "these times are different. We used to have one Buddha, now there are five in every city you go to."

As fear always hold back and tries to stabilize, great fear of the changes forthcoming must be expected. This is not wrong, there are no inferiors or superiors in all of this. What must be right though, as it always are, is that people choose for themselves

Originally posted by stereologist
I am shifting towards the conclusion that this is not real.

You're not shifting anything. You had that conclusion firmly in place all along.
This only leaves room for some sort of compromise.

Taken the fact there there is no objective truth (which is actually an contradiction in itself) we must rely on our perceptive skills.
These skills vary between people for different reasons. Thus, multiple versions of "truth" exists at the same time.
You subscribe to one, I subscribe to another.

It seems to me that there are others that actually do share the same perception. Together, supported by each other, I'd like to think that we can influence change on the current global structures and institutions. A slow process it might be but a process still.

Can we get along so far?

So, my intention for this thread was something along the lines of:
"Hey, I am having this experience. Anyone else feeling the same? Let's get together and support each other!"
See why some of us might react like we do?

Seems like the most sore subject here is Calleman and Arguilles.
Personally I have never heard of the latter but some of the former. Though I initally got into Calleman I had some harder times following him as organized critique arose. Still I can't say that he is/was totally off either. I think some of his conclusions are interesting. However what I really got out from it was another dimension to all my other observations. The timing feels right in correlation to those observations. I therefore make the conclusion that the convergence is happening in one form or another.

I have made my claims- you did not find them credible. Apparently that didn't change my views nor yours.
In that aspect we can both feel like "winners" if that was even a desirable gain in the first place.
You doubt that my conclusions are valid and I question your way of reasoning towards that doubt.
Before we start to sink to lower rhetorical levels lets just get along and return to either ringside.

Uneasy truce, someone?

reply to post by OleMB


Hey man, nice post.
That Lipton guy seems like a good fellar'

So, last summer I asked my friend who is a Canadian native and shaman: the energies that try to oppose the change, that wants to reverse or at least hinder the evolution of the mind, what are these energies?
His reply was direct and clear as day:
Those are not energies, they are the absolute absence of the divine, it is the hollow nothingness, the lack of spirituality.

It made so much sense. My previous ideas of "good" and "bad" energies were influenced by the flawed logic of duality. What might hinder or at least slow down the transgression is the lack of motivation.
Fear plays a big part in this (in reference to Lipton).
We've built this world with its institutions by connecting our thoughts and creating structures. Now, the world looks more like a prison of complex rules and a conditioned freedom of existence. Still, we are afraid of any options because the prison has become so familiar to us. Just like a beaten spouse that stays in an abusive relationship.

We have constructed our core values so that we believe that:
Order versus Chaos, and that Order is good and Chaos is bad. Even the polarity between Good and Bad limits our possibilities of a greater understanding.
Nothing is "either". It is everything, all the time. Challenging that thought is something we must engage ourselves in more and more, imho.

reply to post by OleMB


Bruce Lipton has a PhD and some really far out ideas. His claim that DNA can be changed by thinking is preposterous. He does no research. He has no peer reviewed publications. He's a guy who went ot school making outlandish claims with no substance.

The idea that actions taken by an individual affect our genetic makeup are Lamarckian and were recognized as wrong a long time ago.

reply to post by Raud

You're not shifting anything. You had that conclusion firmly in place all along.
This only leaves room for some sort of compromise.

You began with a false premise.

Taken the fact there there is no objective truth (which is actually an contradiction in itself) we must rely on our perceptive skills.
These skills vary between people for different reasons. Thus, multiple versions of "truth" exists at the same time.
You subscribe to one, I subscribe to another.

A rubbish claim. You actually think anyone would fall for that excuse.

So, my intention for this thread was something along the lines of:
"Hey, I am having this experience. Anyone else feeling the same? Let's get together and support each other!"
See why some of us might react like we do?

That is quite different from claiming it's real.

So if that is the reason for the thread, then what is wrong with asking how you can tell if this experience you are having is related in any way to 2012?

Seems like the most sore subject here is Calleman and Arguilles.
Personally I have never heard of the latter but some of the former. Though I initally got into Calleman I had some harder times following him as organized critique arose. Still I can't say that he is/was totally off either. I think some of his conclusions are interesting. However what I really got out from it was another dimension to all my other observations. The timing feels right in correlation to those observations. I therefore make the conclusion that the convergence is happening in one form or another.

Calleman constructed a false representation of the Mayan culture in an attempt to form a hoax. Little of what he stated about the Mayans and their world view was correct. So if this is based in any way on Calleman then you have been misled by him.

You doubt that my conclusions are valid and I question your way of reasoning towards that doubt.
Before we start to sink to lower rhetorical levels lets just get along and return to either ringside.

Uneasy truce, someone?

You claim to have an experience that is shared by others. How can you tell it is real? How can you differentiate the experience from something that you wishfully hope for?

reply to post by stereologist


If you don't understand the problematics with "objective truth" you clearly haven't gone through the subject on any deeper level. Instead of talking above your head we'll just leave it right there.

If you feel "tricked" by and "false premise" in this thread I am so sorry for that, OK? Geez, it's like I need to have some sort of disclaimer in every post...

What is has to do with 2012? Uhm, I dunno, because 2012 was last year? The experiences I share did much occur during the latter part of that year (and during the present). That is why.

If those listening to Calleman are being "misled", the same can be said about those who listen to much of the contemporary scientific institutions. We are again closing in on the ontological outskirts here and we don't seem to be able to handle that subject in any constructive way.
I am aware that Calleman has flaws in his theories, that is why I like to form my own. Having the huge benefit of spiritual/astral access and understanding makes me confident. As for Calleman, I'll try to meet him in person sometime and let him speak. I don't think that he gave up most of his life for a scam. I think he has his own interpretation on the fragmented material available.

"Wishfully hope for"... Man, you know you come off as quite the disillusioned person, right? Now, I am not the one to tell who you are cause I've only gotten a slight gist so far, but I think the main issue here is that you don't believe. This has been the topic for endless debates for eternities past and I won't touch it. You say you are not an agnostic; I say you give all the signs for being one. If you are happy with positivism, good for you. I am not, however and for that I am glad; it has given me so much more in life, so much more peace, understanding and tolerance. For some it is "seeing is believing" (typical, simplistic positivist thinking), for others it is "believing is seeing".

Again how can I tell this is happening to others?
I can't. It is they who tell me, god dammit! What do you want more, statistics?

If you are so innerly unhappy with this thread why don't you just scoot and let us have our "baloney" party to ourselves, ey chummmp?

reply to post by stereologist


By the way...

I had to check your profile and I see that close to every thread you've authored is about 2012, and there are quite some too. What is up with this obsession? What is it with 2012 that makes you tick like nothing else? Are you afraid of change (in general too)?
Just strikes me as a bit odd.

I couldn't be arsed with going through them all but from experience I find very uncommon with "2012 proponents" thrashing an "2012 scoffing/sceptic" thread. Why is it more common with the other way around? Why is one part more tolerant than the other? Since 21st passed, the "in your face" threads has exploded on ATS like mentos in a soda canister. Like we needed that. This thread was partly about that, in a somewhat subtile manner.

These things going through my mi-ind...