NASA knew Columbia crew could die but chose not to tell them

reply to post by DevineWisdom


Your totally right. If it really was hopeless, what's the point, this wasn't an action movie whose gonna choose fiery explosion death over passing out and not waking up.

IF they knew would it have been possible to dock at the ISS? Maybe a second shuttle could've been readied to pick the crew up at the ISS or they could've used the Russian capsule to return and scuttle the shuttle. Just a thought.

reply to post by TheOriginalMolonLabe


It wasn't possible. The orbits were completely different and the shuttle didn't carry enough fuel to get anywhere near the ISS.

If nothing else, if I had been on board, I would have at least wanted to have the opportunity to say good bye to my family.

They all knew the risks before they went on the ride.

The not letting them know was more for those on the ground. And, for the space program. Spinning it as not telling them, for the astronauts benefit is bunk (IMO).

reply to post by ctdannyd


This is most correct towards the crew - to say bye to their families. This is not correct towards hiding their secret - because there would have been no secret if they had allowed the crew to say their bye to their families.

I do not know, first time I hear of such thing, and might be 'conspiracy just so that we have conspiracy about each topic'. I am not sure there is actual evidence such thing was done..

Originally posted by Angelic Resurrection
while i agree with you that nasa was unaware of the danger to the astronauts,
but by the same token, as an engnr, i can safely say, that piece of falling foam just couldnt have managed to
hole the leading edge, regardless of the later lab expt reports.

The difference in speed between the foam and the shuttle was about 800kph at the time of impact.

They videotaped the test where a similar chunk of foam was fired at 800kph at the exact same piece of the wing...are you saying the videotape was faked? And if not how does the videotape not simulate what happened?

You can see the test at 35:30 in this video:

This makes me sick. How disgusting of a person could you be? It was not NASA's call to decide whether or not they knew. Any risks should be relayed to the astronauts. I'm at a loss for words. I understand their (NASA) dilemma to not put another dilemma on the astronauts shoulders. But at the end of the day it is their life to decide how they want to live it out or die. I personally think it would've been much more valiant, even if they still didn't survive, to know that they may not make it. Could've gone out in a blaze of glory instead of just a blaze of ashes that people tried to sell. Could've portrayed them as heroes, which I still consider them. They could've called their loved ones one last time. As far as I'm concerned this is criminal negligence, manslaughter, reckless endangerment and a bunch of others I don't know.

reply to post by ThePeopleUnited


Except that if you read everything in the thread, NASA at the time didn't think there was a problem until it was too late. Afterwards they came out and said that some people thought there was a problem, but in the past the orbiters had landed safely with damaged tiles, so they thought this time was no different.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by TheOriginalMolonLabe

 

It wasn't possible. The orbits were completely different and the shuttle didn't carry enough fuel to get anywhere near the ISS.

You've mentioned this twice now, but it isn't the whole story. Columbia did have propellant on board. They weren't sitting at zero. MC had a scenario where they could fire smaller thrusts and get out there once they had retrieved the emergency supplied from the rocket launched from Vandenberg.

I can't tell you more than what I know from people who were actually involved. I also don't know all of the discussions that were being had by other teams. I do know that they were aware the hole was big enough to compromise the wing before they made the reentry attempt. That isn't a conspiracy at all. The engineers knew that it would fail because the heat of reentry would melt the structural support members in the wing. Whether everyone in every team knew that, I can't say. I wasn't there to see it happening in Houston.

Getting additional supplies into orbit was their primary thought process. Of course, none of that matters now because MC didn't go with that plan. The orbiter program ended, and now one of my friends works for SpaceX instead of NASA.

I am personally a risk taker. I would have risked sending supplies up and eventually getting the orbiter to the ISS. Would it have worked as I wrote in my first post? I don't know. They could have sent MMH and Nitrogen Tetroxide (oxidizer) up with the rocket as well to aid them in getting to the ISS. Problem was, it'd never been tried before.

Hopefully now that we're using SpaceX and the Soyuz to launch people into space we'll avoid future human losses. It's a risky business.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


What is more interesting is the helmet in the cover image of that video, is that one that was actually on someone aboard that doomed shuttle?

As for the topic here, deep down inside of most people, if they are truly doomed, and can be informed of that impending doom most would rather not know. I believe that unless you can actually save people, it is better to withhold that information.

reply to post by bpg131313


Of course they weren't sitting on zero. But they would have had to do a major burn to get to the orbital inclination of the ISS and they didn't have enough propellant on board to get to the right orbit before they were on zero. As far as I know there was no way to refuel the shuttle in orbit They've only just begun refueling satellites within the last couple of months. So I don't think there was any way, even if they had sent fuel up to the shuttle they could have used it. But there are several people in the thread that know more than I do about the shuttle that can answer that question more definitively.

Besides not having enough propellent to make a significant change in orbit to get to the ISS. They also had no docking port due to the configuration of STS-107. They had the SpaceHab module in the cargobay. A docking port was not required on that mission. So even if they could send up another spaceship. I don't think it would be able to dock to the Shuttle anywhere. And I don't know if they had any EVA suits either, since they were not required for the mission.

They didn't have many options open to them.

I would rather not know I was going to die in this manner.

There is probably more to this than meets the eye.

There wasn't a choice to do anything but go through with the way that could possibly save them. It's not like the astronauts never knew re-entry is dangerous. They knew the risks involved with their mission. It doesn't seem mission control knew for sure they wouldn't survive re-entry and deliberately tried to kill them.

One would think they should always have a contingency plan, to escape or be rescued, should something go wrong like it did. Apparently this isn't the case. I'm sure the astronauts were aware of this before launch.

Better to thank them for their service.

Originally posted by ausername
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

What is more interesting is the helmet in the cover image of that video, is that one that was actually on someone aboard that doomed shuttle?

Yes

As for the topic here, deep down inside of most people, if they are truly doomed, and can be informed of that impending doom most would rather not know. I believe that unless you can actually save people, it is better to withhold that information.

What I found most disturbing in that account, is that engineers at NASA wanted to make satellite photos of the shuttle to assess if there was any damage. The NASA managers actively resisted efforts to make such photographs. So without those photos they didn't know the condition...but had they made the photos, it's possible they might have seen the hole, and then they would be faced with the situation falsely described in the OP...but that never happened...they just didn't know there was a hole.

Exactly what they could have done had they discovered the hole is a matter of some debate...but they would have done something, even if they had to make it up as they went along like they did with Apollo 13.

There is a different story about how this ship blew up every day now. What's going on?

Look ladies and gents, in the real world you just cant spread magic sauce on a problem and make it go away. Space flight isn't brain surgery; it's harder.

Prep a shuttle to go rescue them? This takes months and months, not hours. Well did take, when they were flying. The ISS theory? They were too far away to maneuver to it. Yes, that's true. Everything the astronauts needed for their flight, they brought with them. NASA certainly plans for contingencies, but wrap your head around the cold, hard truth that not every possible issue can be planned for. What this means is the oxygen isn't unlimited, the fuel isn't unlimited, the water isn't unlimited, etc, etc.

Launch a rocket with food and oxygen? Which rocket? Carrying which payload? From where? Did the shuttle even have the capability to dock with the magic-sauce, doesn't exist rocket?

The shuttle crews trained for years for their particular missions. Prepping and launching space fairing aircraft in a matter of hours is pure fantasy. Thousands of people working millions of man-hours labor for such goals.

There is no conspiracy here. The idea that the decisions made were made lightly, or callously is offensive to all involved. Like others have said already, until you walk in those shoes don't fool yourself into thinking armchair quarterbacking & 20/20 hindsight somehow imbues you with the "right" answers.

reply to post by Phage
im usuaally with ya, but. If this whole repport is a lie,? Then

They deserved to know

Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar
Look ladies and gents, in the real world you just cant spread magic sauce on a problem and make it go away. Space flight isn't brain surgery; it's harder.

Prep a shuttle to go rescue them? This takes months and months, not hours.

www.cbsnews.com...

While it was theoretically possible to launch the shuttle Atlantis on a rescue mission, it would have required an almost instant awareness of the severity of the problem with Columbia, a decision to commit a second shuttle to flight before the cause of the first failure was known and a willingness to cut corners to get Atlantis off the ground before Columbia ran out of power and air.

And even then, it would have required an enormous amount of luck, with no delays due to technical snags or even bad weather.

But it was theoretically possible, and many within the program regret to this day that NASA did not at least make an attempt.

I found "Missed Opportunity" 5 through 7 especially depressing:
spaceflightnow.com...

Engelauf: "I will say that crew did send down a note last night asking if anybody is talking about extension days or going to go with that and we sent up to the crew about a 15 second video clip of the strike just so they are armed if they get any questions at the press conferences or that sort of thing, but we made it very clear to them no, no concerns."

Not to mention:

If Program managers had un-derstood the threat that the bipod foam strike posed and were able to unequivocally determine before Flight Day Seven that there was potentially catastrophic damage to the left wing, these repair and rescue plans would most likely have been developed, and a rescue would have been conceivable.

spaceflightnow.com...

reply to post by TrueAmerican


Doesnt that alone tell you this is bs? Stay in orbit and we will send another shuttle to get you out. Period. If they had that knowledge before hand. So I dont believe this at all. You always want to believe the worst about our governemnt no matter the subject. Why is that?