The Logical Trickery of the UFO Skeptic

reply to post by ImpactoR


It doesn't matter whats wrong in the logic because it doesn't apply to anything that was actually said.

Originally posted by ImpactoR
I dont care what idiom or word is used... I said you failed at arguing because you simply didn't provide any info what is wrong in the logic I provided and instead give me a word how it is called, the wikipedia link didn't say it in specific, but I can figure it out myself..

Let me lay it out for you.

Here is what you quoted:

Originally posted by Druscilla
Show us your hypothetical signal from outer space.
Do you have one of these signals you describe?
No?

The statement is "there is no alien signal"

Here is your reply:

Originally posted by ImpactoR
I've told you many times but maybe I will repeat myself again. Even if one should seek sufficient evidence to says something with certainty, the lack of evidence in you straight site, hands is not a reason to dismiss something, when there is enough evidence to not be excluded

This sounds like you are saying she is dismissing that there is an Alien civilization out there due to there being no signal. There is no such statement by her anywhere. Perhaps in another thread? but you "know how she thinks" so you take liberty to state this for her. Pure genius.

you then argue your case against something she never said!

Oh, your logic was brilliant by the way. Perhaps you can put words in my mouth and then argue away with them. Oh you tried that one already.

from you:

And another fallacy of your logic is to think that just because someone says - I do not know, there may be even alien visitation hidden - does not mean 'I am a believer, i believe every bogus story

Please show me where I said this. where did I say anything resembling the statement you are calling me out on ?

and then...

Im really sorry for you if you cant make the difference, thats ignorance, close mindness and scoffing

so you told me my logic was failed due to something I never said or implied and told me I was scoffing. WHAT IS SCOFFING. I don't even know what that is.

Do you see that yet or do you need me to give you more examples of where you did this? I would opt to ignore me this time

Skeptics are skeptical because there is no hard evidence

reply to post by RandyBragg


I guess the 500 military officers,intelligence officers,,policemen and pilots testimony and evidence are not considered good enough evidence for some people. We rely on these men to protect our way of life and provide life saving services everyday but we doubt them when they try to come forward and be truthful about their experiences.

Astronaut Dr.Edgar Mitchell has stated repeatedly that he knows Aliens exist and has spoken to people who have personal connections to the Roswell Incident. search.yahoo.com...;_ylt=A0oG7hrdQQ9R2SIASsnBGOd_?ei=UTF-8&fr=ipad&p=edgar+mitchell+aliens&rs=0&fr2=rs-top" target="_blank" class="postlink">Edgar Mitchell Interview


What more do the skeptics want? Alt out its really not surprising to me, academics don't want to admit to a pre-columbian exploration of America so definitely not Alien contact!

Sorry I don't know what happened, here is link to interview
dsc.discovery.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Edgar Mitchell Interview

Oh buy the way the 500 men and testimonies I was speaking of above, are the witnesses for the Disclosure Project. They held a press conference in May 2001, hoping to spark the government into Disclosure.

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


The thread isn't exactly about SETI signal, it is about the general thinking of skeptics or those close-minded skeptics, SETI was just an example. I was arguing the general thinking of those and how 'not having it in straight sight for you' does not guarantee its non-existence aka empircal evidence when someone else may have it and never went public... something wrong with that? I don't think so.

reply to post by ImpactoR


This whole "close minded" flag you keep waving around is utter and complete total rubbish.

1. The Universe is VAST: about 500 BILLION Galaxies with anywhere from 300-700 BILLION stars in each galaxy.
For fun, let's say 500,000,000,000 x 500,000,000,000 = 250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars.
And that's just a very rough number of the KNOWN universe.

2. According that number, it's an absolutely ridiculous assumption to posit that there is no other life anywhere else in the universe.
Who actually believes there's no other life anywhere else in the Universe?

3. The majority of us that are very hard skeptics REALLY REALLY REALLY x 250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
would absolutely LOVE for there to be aliens. Because of this, there has to be absolutely no doubt, no speculation, no conjecture, and no room for any error.

4. Invisible secret hidden aliens are absolutely worthless. We need be able to either at the very least observe confirming data, and at best participate in interaction. This can be anything from fossilized microbes on a moon, on up to space ships in our skies here to either make friends, conquer, or anything else.
Secret, hidden invisible, rumored, speculated, maybe, possibly, potentially, hopefully wishfully thinking aliens, or evidence of aliens somewhere, or reported by word of mouth is worthless.
If there's aliens 5000 light years away from us, and they're technological, friendly, interesting and have all the qualities that would make for great friends, it means absolutely nothing if we don't even know they exist, or they won't talk to us, or there's really no way to make any sort of communication possible.

5. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence on par with the fantastic-ness of the claim. If you claim to know someone that can fly like Superman, we don't want some blurry video. We want a live interview and demonstration done, did, and put told to on all the top international media outlets.
Photos/videos of balloons and ambiguous lights, or somethings are pretty much inadmissible.
If you take an HIV or Pregnancy test, do you want the results to be similar to UFO reports?

6. Certainly aliens exist somewhere ... possibly all over the universe ... and there could be BILLIONS of intelligent technologically advanced species all over the Universe if only there was just ONE per Galaxy, but, it means absolutely nothing and is absolutely worthless information unless we can either observe or have interaction.

7. Close mindedness works both ways. Most of us skeptics are entirely open and accepting to the idea that there's alien life somewhere, and will gladly accept it upon confirming data. How open minded are believers to NEVER getting confirming data, never ever having validation? How many decades has it been since the "modern" interest in UFOs been around?

8. As said before, skeptics are the very LEAST of worries as it applies to the UFO circus. The very believers and adherents to the phenomenon in all their multiple types and sorts are the people that make the topic for the most part ... a circus, a joke.

9. In essence; don't write a check you can't cash. Accept nothing less than something you can poke at, have other people poke at; hear, see, touch, smell, or even put on the barby for a taste.

10, Anything else is about as important as a Science Fiction movie production; dreams, speculation, maybes.

reply to post by ImpactoR


I agree with what Druscilla has said, I am a sceptic do I believe aliens exist YES 100% do I think they visit Earth NO, have they in the dim and distant past possibly.

When I see a picture , a video or a link on a thread to a supposed ufo do I want it to be real YES 100% will I except a blob of light on a picture/video from a phone a night NO , will I except a video of a supposed morphing UFO which I know is caused by auto focus cameras hunting for focus NO, will I except the claim of some IDIOT watching a video and seeing a tiny white dot in the distance and claiming it's a ufo doing mach 10 when they have no size or distance from the object to even try and work out a speed NO.

Will I keep an open mind YES 100% that's why I joined here and since my hobby is photography which I have done for many many years allows me to look at an image video and use my experience to work out what I am looking at if I think it's BS I will say so and why I think that, but if I saw something I thought was the real deal and again if I could confirm and back that up with my knowledge I would back that 100% also!!!

PS like the avatar Druscilla!!!

reply to post by ImpactoR

Yes believe (in) magical faeries, spaghetti monster, mermaids, because no one proved this doesn't exist. This is a false way to claim existence indeed, but it is as false as being certain it doesn't exist.

'You can't say something doesn't exist unless you have proof that it doesn't exist.' That's what you mean, isn't it?

Fine. I won't argue. I could, but I won't.

But I would like to ask you this: how do you get from 'it might be true' to 'I believe in it'?

Originally posted by Astyanax
'You can't say something doesn't exist unless you have proof that it doesn't exist.' That's what you mean, isn't it?
But I would like to ask you this: how do you get from 'it might be true' to 'I believe in it'?

Exactly!... THE OPPOSITE! I said this is what I do not claim and yet you say this is what I say.

Go on you pseudos, continue putting things I didn't say and look at that you may even make me a believer!

Seems for you there can be only 2 sides - believer and skeptics, you do not understand that there are some who are just being objective and that makes them scientific and unless it becomes all clear, they do not dismiss anything, especially aliens which will you look at that, does NOT sound IMPOSSIBLE as you may think!

Not dismiss != certain it exists!!

reply to post by ImpactoR

I said this is what I do not claim and yet you say this is what I say.

I didn't say, I asked. And your English, I'm sorry to say, is absolutely terrible, so please don't blame people for misunderstanding you.

So do you mean that if there is no proof something doesn't exist, then it has to exist?

That is absurd. But perhaps you mean something different. Please try to make your meaning clear. If your own English isn't good enough, get someone to translate from your own language.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by ImpactoR

 

I said this is what I do not claim and yet you say this is what I say.

I didn't say, I asked. And your English, I'm sorry to say, is absolutely terrible, so please don't blame people for misunderstanding you.

So do you mean that if there is no proof something doesn't exist, then it has to exist?

That is absurd. But perhaps you mean something different. Please try to make your meaning clear. If your own English isn't good enough, get someone to translate from your own language.

ROFL

Speak for your self if you have problems with reading comprehension. Since you are of the few to say that and those who've said that were just some random nobodies on the internet.

And it seems you lack it big time since I explicitly said, no I do not follow the thought 'there is no proof it doesn't exist' so it exists'.

Perhaps you need a translator if English is not your native... and if it is... too bad (since you are expected to understand it like I can understand people that barely speak English what they are trying to say)

But hey if you lack common sense, the ability to think, it's not my fault.

What I am saying all the time I criticize PSEUDO-skeptics, is that, whenever there are things that are kept in secret, whenever there are accounts of aliens (even though these accounts are not very credible), that is enough to not make conclusions that something doesn't exist. Not until you know for certainty what you're dealing with,. That does not mean you should be certain it exists, simply say 'I don't know; and you will be fine.

Making your own certain answers whether 'yes they exist' or 'no they do not' is both pseudoscience and pseudoskepticism

I gave an example with a major error in the logic, that if I had a military base, people knew only rumors of that base and because no one has any hard evidence, people would conclude it doesn't exist, but I would still have that base.

If you still don't understand it, begone grammar Nazi, though I've got high scores on Cambridge writing assignments, so it seems the PROBLEM IS YOURS...

Hint: If I am speaking unclear that has nothing to do with the language, what I said in the quote above was without defining what I am talking about, I could have been vague in my own language as well...

But if you had followed my thoughts, you would have understood..
---------

Oh I know what you did, you decided to take one unclear sentence of mine, which out of context means nothing indeed, then decided to post bs around it.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by ImpactoR

Call me whatever you please, but your English is execrable and you have absolutely no right to complain if you are not understood when writing it. If you wish to communicate in English, you owe others the courtesy – and yourself the favour – of learning the proper use of the language.

Anyway – in between your garbled, outraged spluttering and Mind Your Language-style howlers, I did manage a glimmer of comprehension. You object to people saying 'aliens driving UFOs don't exist'. And you think a sceptic is a person who says things like that.

I suggest you commence your remedial studies in English by looking up the meaning of 'sceptic' in a dictionary. It does not mean the same thing as 'repudiationist' or 'scoffer'.

reply to post by ImpactoR


This fascinating obsession you have with members posting stars that you've mentioned on more than one occasion begs indicative you've an inferiority complex regarding your pretense of airs applying to objectivity, deduction, and logical interrogation of subject matter.

Further, you have this thing about "scientific objectivity".
Do you even know what scientific objectivity is?

Objectivity in the case of UFOs, for instance, would make the following statement:
"UFOs are a phenomenon described by many people worldwide over a large demographic of ethno-socio-economic diversity encompassing the range of humanity".

Period.
It's a phenomenon.

When you start investing grey matter into such pet ideas regarding Aliens, Demons, 18th dimensional rainbow crystal pineal gland transcendental entities, or whatever else can and will fly out of any given orifice, you've invested yourself into a less than objective inquiry.
Once such a target, any target or any name, shape or description is set, objectivity diminishes.

UFOs are a phenomenon.

Some of this Phenomenon has been quite thoroughly investigated from the psychological perspective where I've linked material on multiple occasions citing such.
Some of this Phenomenon, a great deal of it is simple ignorant misidentification and human error in perception of well known and quite identifiable events, and objects like experimental aircraft, missile test launches, balloons, ball lightning, Lenticular Cloud formations, Earth lights on fault lines resulting from piezoelectric discharge, unfamiliarity with Venus Jupiter or even Sirius, Bolides, and a multitude of many other events, objects and occurrences.
Pilots are often named as infallible witnesses.
I beg to differ: Airplane, UFO, or Venus?

Additionally, as I've mentioned several times in this thread, there's also charlatans, nutters, attention seekers, liars, and saucer-eyed believers that will do and/or say near most anything to promote the phenomenon as something real even to the point of outright fabrication, deception, employing any and/or every tool of the trade-craft belonging to the con-man, even when there is no apparent reason for doing so.
The song and dance is well rehearsed. There's over 50 years of people's reactions to testimonies to witness accounts to peruse, and a well established mythology to draw from in fashioning a "believable" eye-witness UFO account.

The UFO subject is myriad sundry.
Some aspects are Psychological in their entirety.
Some aspects involve zealotry over some belief, while others spring from opportunism.
A large part involves false identification of known phenomenon that can, has, and will often result in the above two.

Could there be Aliens?
As I've said before, sure, somewhere in the Universe at large. There's room for Billions, Hundreds of Billions of alien species in the Universe and even then, all of them, including us could go from start to finish without ever knowing or detecting not even one single other of anyone else because the Universe is that large, as well as OLD, so, there's a matter of Time, and Timing too.

Your arguments are sloppy, and mostly invalid.
Quit pretending to a facility for cogitation well above and beyond your ability or understanding.
Quit using terms like "Scientific Objectivity" when you are NOT a scientist.

You know how I think? Remember that statement?
Really?

There's a quite a bit more, but, this should do for now.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by Druscilla

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by ImpactoR

 

This fascinating obsession you have with members posting stars that you've mentioned on more than one occasion begs indicative you've an inferiority complex regarding your pretense of airs applying to objectivity, deduction, and logical interrogation of subject matter.

Further, you have this thing about "scientific objectivity".
Do you even know what scientific objectivity is?

Objectivity in the case of UFOs, for instance, would make the following statement:
"UFOs are a phenomenon described by many people worldwide over a large demographic of ethno-socio-economic diversity encompassing the range of humanity".

Period.
It's a phenomenon.

Correct, and let me add - it is a phenomenon, that remains unexplained, there are accounts of meeting of military men with other beings, true or not, until there is secrecy, anything is possible. What part of the objectivity here didn't you understand??

When you start investing grey matter into such pet ideas regarding Aliens, Demons, 18th dimensional rainbow crystal pineal gland transcendental entities, or whatever else can and will fly out of any given orifice, you've invested yourself into a less than objective inquiry.
Once such a target, any target or any name, shape or description is set, objectivity diminishes.

UFOs are a phenomenon.

Some of this Phenomenon has been quite thoroughly investigated from the psychological perspective where I've linked material on multiple occasions citing such.
Some of this Phenomenon, a great deal of it is simple ignorant misidentification and human error in perception of well known and quite identifiable events, and objects like experimental aircraft, missile test launches, balloons, ball lightning, Lenticular Cloud formations, Earth lights on fault lines resulting from piezoelectric discharge, unfamiliarity with Venus Jupiter or even Sirius, Bolides, and a multitude of many other events, objects and occurrences.
Pilots are often named as infallible witnesses.
I beg to differ: Airplane, UFO, or Venus?

Additionally, as I've mentioned several times in this thread, there's also charlatans, nutters, attention seekers, liars, and saucer-eyed believers that will do and/or say near most anything to promote the phenomenon as something real even to the point of outright fabrication, deception, employing any and/or every tool of the trade-craft belonging to the con-man, even when there is no apparent reason for doing so.
The song and dance is well rehearsed. There's over 50 years of people's reactions to testimonies to witness accounts to peruse, and a well established mythology to draw from in fashioning a "believable" eye-witness UFO account.

And where in the world did I mention there are no charlatans, where did I mention I believe in dimensions (yet alone DEMONS! LMAO) , where did I mention that there are no misidentifications, lies etc etc? And still there are real cases...

The UFO subject is myriad sundry.
Some aspects are Psychological in their entirety.
Some aspects involve zealotry over some belief, while others spring from opportunism.
A large part involves false identification of known phenomenon that can, has, and will often result in the above two.

Could there be Aliens?
As I've said before, sure, somewhere in the Universe at large. There's room for Billions, Hundreds of Billions of alien species in the Universe and even then, all of them, including us could go from start to finish without ever knowing or detecting not even one single other of anyone else because the Universe is that large, as well as OLD, so, there's a matter of Time, and Timing too.

SO ALIENS EXIST IN THE UNIVERSE but you are SURE ALL DATA regarding meeting with aliens, recovering crashes ALL FAKE FOR SURE

based on WHAT do you claim this... hmm??

I am not a scientist? Yes, I don't work as one, but my observation is, because I claim something based on CONTINUOUS OBSERVATION and what I am saying based on it is not that Aliens are here FOR SURE, I am saying, it is possible, while you are certain it is not.

It is just too much for you, to even accept as possibility, Ok show me ALL DATA IS FAKE and I will say, yes all is fake, until smth is SECRET you cannot be damn sure!

FYI I have studied Astronomy, I know the warcry of every scientist 'Where is the evidence??' and I have been taught to analyze in other majors for years, so don't question my objectivity.

However, the example with the facility is how the info may never reach the public, therefore it does not exist.

if you FAIL at realizing how, lack of SUFFICIENT (key word) evidence does not mean non-existence, you fail at science and at logic. PERIOD..

Originally posted by ImpactoR

I am not a scientist? Yes, I don't work as one, but my observation is, because I claim something based on CONTINUOUS OBSERVATION and what I am saying based on it is not that Aliens are here FOR SURE, I am saying, it is possible, while you are certain it is not.

What observations of aliens have you made so as to present the possibility that aliens are here?

It is just too much for you, to even accept as possibility, Ok show me ALL DATA IS FAKE and I will say, yes all is fake, until smth is SECRET you cannot be damn sure!

You are puttung the cart before the horse so to speak.
To entertain something as possible is pointless in this regard.
Anything is possible, sure.

Is stating that "it is possible" simply a reverse of the tactics that the OP's article accuses skeptics off?
You are simply inserting possibility because you have no evidence.
While the OP's article accuses skeptics of dismissing possibilities due to a thorough lack of evidence.

So instead of presenting solid facts as an argument you dismiss skepticism by shouting "its secret so you can't be sure so then its possible" all the while debasing skeptics who naturally prefer solid evidence.

Your position is Absurd. Absolutely absurd.

SO ALIENS EXIST IN THE UNIVERSE but you are SURE ALL DATA regarding meeting with aliens, recovering crashes ALL FAKE FOR SURE

based on WHAT do you claim this... hmm??

Just on this comment, dude, you can't even be sure that even one supposed meeting is real.
If you were, we wouldn't be even having this discussion.
Its a two way street you have presented here.

No one has to prove every claim of an alien meeting is fake quite simply because you cannot even prove one of them is true.

Think about it.
Think about what I have just written.

reply to post by atlasastro

Originally posted by atlasastro
Is stating that "it is possible" simply a reverse of the tactics that the OP's article accuses skeptics off?
You are simply inserting possibility because you have no evidence.
While the OP's article accuses skeptics of dismissing possibilities due to a thorough lack of evidence.

So instead of presenting solid facts as an argument you dismiss skepticism by shouting "its secret so you can't be sure so then its possible" all the while debasing skeptics who naturally prefer solid evidence.

Your position is Absurd. Absolutely absurd.

No, your certainty in what you don't know for sure is absurd.

First of all, 'No evidence'? well look around you, have you read any real cases regarding unidentified aircraft or are you speaking through your A**? - The present evidence is enough to be open for possibilities, and it is hell a lot.

And on the matter of not proving anything is true - of course, where did you see me claiming it is true and I am certain that the stories are true?

I am not certain even based on the observation I've done, however, I think it is possible. Do you all ever make a difference between believing which I do not, and being open for possibilities when there are enough accounts to suggest it

If you don't make the difference, your problem... Also I gave the example with having private facility, let's say you've got the same evidence about it that you have about aliens, some vague, mixed with fake things, does this change the fact that it exists

Do you never think behind some rumors or vague stories there may be somethign true? Hello, meet OBJECTIVITY where the things you are not certain about (when there is some evidence of them even if not enough) is possible.

I exclude the telepathy, dreams, aliens came to my bed while I was sleeping,

Sure, it could all be some military tech, but what's wrong in thinking not all when some of the physics, abilities they've shown defy any craft that would logically be made by humans

Do you know how much more documents in secret may be out there? Including meeting with Eisenhower etc, etc? Why exclude?

reply to post by atlasastro


Also, it seems to you, it's either there and you see it or it doesn't exist at all. Iron logic!... Not.

Tell me, with such logic, how do you even consider aliens may exist in the universe? Why? Evidence? Just barely any organic compunds and so far nothing. Where is your evidence that aliens 'most likely' exist?

How do you even expect what would happen when Voyager entered the so called bounds of our galaxy, scientists discovered anomalies, things they didn't expect to be there...
How do you people claim how ALIEN AIRCRAFT would fly, HOW THEY CAN'T REACH FAR GALAXIES etc?

Where is your logic?