Does anti-Obama hatred undermine collectively held US values?

Good thread. I have no love of Obama or any president since Kennedy, really. But the ridiculous rhetoric about Obama is over the top. People who call him a socialist and communist have no idea what they're talking about. Cohort of the banksters? Definitely. Socialist, um no. If only. Maybe things would be better if that were the case.

Godwin's Law

Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is an argument made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.



Deny Ignorance!

reply to post by Astyanax


How old are you? I'm not arguing with you just trying to figure out how you call people racist for not liking him. I personally don't like any politician or politics because it's all corrupt.

But seriously just answer one question for me. How is a black man or woman racist against their own race? I know plenty of black folk who hate Obama.

reply to post by Revealation

I'm pretty 'racist' against my own race, as it happens. But if you're black and you hate Obama, what I said in my first post on the thread obviously doesn't apply to you – you're not one of the 'most'.

What I said in my second still does, though.

To answer your question, I will be 55 this year. I am not American. I have lived through a generation-long civil war in my own country, one which may have killed as many as a quarter of a million people directly and indirectly, and which drove over a million people to take refuge abroad. I have travelled far, and lived in democratic societies both capitalist and socialist, as well as right-wing dictatorships and absolute monarchies. I know well the difference between political systems – from first-hand experience.

Now hear this: decent, civilised people around the world, who cherish liberty and democracy, depend more than you could possibly understand on the United States of America remaining decent, civilised, free and democratic. However, it looks to me as if the democratic contract in America is falling apart and right now it is entirely because of chauvinists and sore losers on the Paranoid Right, who refuse to accept the election result that put a black Democrat in the Oval Office.

Don't be such bloody dogs in the manger! Let the other side have its turn. The man you love to hate will be gone in 2016 anyway – because America is still free, is still democratic, and Barack Obama has no intention of changing that. If Republicans can come up with a better story than the superstitious, hate-filled, divisive rubbish they seem to have now embraced, you'll have your turn again. Be patient, and BE DECENT.

The world looks to America to do the right thing. For a change, do it.

reply to post by Astyanax


Really sorry, but, ATS-threads mentioning "Obama" (or "guns" for that matter) are ab-so-lutely NOT the places where one will find decent. informative debate.

As foreigners, we will probably néver be able to understand The American Mindset.

"We are from different worlds"

I'll leave it at that.

reply to post by Astyanax


For somebody whose been through all those political regimes...you're clueless. You are blaming Americans and republicans. 1st of all I have no political affiliation. I'm an American and a human being. That's it. But to piont out that republicans are the problem is ludicrous. There is a 2 party system which is against everything this country was founded on. Our "elected officials are supposed to represent "We the PEOPLE" , not "We the Democrats" or "We the Republicans". Their only concerns are to get the majority vote so "THEIR PARTY" has the power to accomplish their 'OWN"goals. They don't care about you or us and neither do the republicans.

Politics is a business and anything they do..even if it looks like they are helping others, they aren't....it's simply about them benefiting in the form of financial prosperity.Its all about selfish motive and self indulgence and self glorification. They are actuall destroying this country and world though you believe just the opposite.

But what I don't understand is why or how people who AREN"T AMERICANS even open their mouths about American politics and beliefs.

That's part of the problem. You aren't even American yet believe you have a right to what's ours. Saying you depend on us as if it's our job to take 'CARE " of you and every other country.

You say.... "DO the DECENT thing"? 1st off, it isn't the American peoples choice even though it should be. That is made up solely by the criminals who run the country (both democrat and republicans alike)

WHat bothers me th most is that you have balls to even think you're entitled to what we Americans work our lives away for and is stolen out of our salaries. I work to make a better life for my children yet their future is getting polluted and destroyed because of political policies and laws.

I love how the hands are always out. To either recieve free things from, or to point blame and demonize the United States. This isn't the United Nations. We're a country not a world.

Let "YOUR OWN" countries take care of you, its not our job.

reply to post by dutchmilpo

 

Really sorry, but, ATS-threads mentioning "Obama" (or "guns" for that matter) are ab-so-lutely NOT the places where one will find decent. informative debate.

As foreigners, we will probably néver be able to understand The American Mindset.

"We are from different worlds"

I'll leave it at that.

You can't have a debate when people aren't willing to openly and unbiasly look at both sides of the topic without judging nothing but the facts. Instead most of us use our emotions to judge instead of our minds, which i'm guilyty of myself many times. Also it's not for you to debate if you're not American.

Like you said, you won't be able to understand our mindset, but realize we won't be able to understand yours either. I never walked in your shoes or lived your life as you haven't lived mine. I can only empathize and try to understand. Not the same though as actually living it and you wouldn't understand how our politicians decisions are affecting our quality of life and the futures of my children and grandchildren..

Yes. No question. The Right's blind hatred of Obama justifies, in their minds, any action that might cause friction relateing to Obama's perceived success. How many GOP initiated bills have been shoot down by the Right simply because Obama agreed with the Right's original position. When that happens, and it's happened a lot, the Right just makes their 'new' position more extreme. Wheter it's because he's black, a Democrat, relatively young, or very popular with the demographics the Right slights regularly, Obama is hated by the Right, so much, that the Right is willing to allow the country to sink, rather than provide any support, (remeber last year's Debt Limit joke, when the Right allowed the USA's credit rating to drop? - Just one example). These Right wing extremists, (the TeaParty head-buriers especially), present the biggest danger to this most sacred countries tradition - MAJORITY RULES. But, thankfully, that kind of ignorance is on it's way out. Go USA.! Go Tollerance! Go diversity! Go hatred...go far, far away.

You came to the heart of Obama hatred my Canadian friend.

Obama doesn't stand a chance when the actual MSM (FOX and friends)
have been spewing nonsense for years now. FOX has now brought in their resident
"Obama is a commie" guy who has an English accent. Because anyone
selling propaganda with an English accent must be telling the truth.

And MANY MANY Obama haters are racist. I'm tired of holding their hand by not speaking up
on this obvious subject. Right wing AM radio jocks are wrecklessly
making bs up about Obama up to fuel the fire. Pissing white dudes off who believe the nonsense
of gun confiscation and a secret commie agenda for the USA.
RIDICULOUS

We as Americans are light years from socialism. Ask the stock market
how socialist we are since Obama's been in office.

It's utter insane bullsh** used as a mask to cover the real feelings they have
for the first African AMERICAN president and coincidentally the first President
to be asked for his birth certificate. And it all trickles down from the likes of
The Koch bros. (big oil) and billionaires that enjoy paying half the taxes I do.

Lame lame bs lame.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I'm just not sure how all the anti-Obama hatred is helpful in advancing collectively held US values..

Isn't the USA all about taking personal responsibility,

See the dichotomy here?

Maybe it's none of my business, but it appears to me that Obama was dealt a very bad hand in the post Bush/Cheney era, and that he's done the best he could with the resources available to him. You elected him with a majority of the vote and then re-elected him.

Item: he was not "dealt a hand", he asked for the job. He begged and lied to get it.

Item: Bush started just what Obama wanted to walk into, and gave him some of the tools to accomplish his desires - i.e. things like "the Patriot Act". As evidence to support this claim, I submit that Obama has done nothing to rescind or repeal acts of that nature, and has actually added to them.

Even if you didn't vote for Obama, why not bury the hatchet and get behind the initiative for a resurgent USA and all manner of progressive change for the better, which will be much easier for the Executive Branch to help accomplish and realize with the support of the American people?

I'm not going to say what first came to mind. Big Brother is always watching. Instead, I'll say that I want no part of anything labelled "progressive", since all those things are REGRESSIVE. Of course the American people getting behind a "leader" in "progressive endeavors" would make things easier for him. We don't, because the American people want no such thing. If we wanted that, droves of us would be supporting it.

It's like you're a nation divided for little if no reason than what appears to be an irrational, emotional "gut feeling" i.e.: that Obama is evil incarnate and therefore everything he says and proposes much be held up to ridicule and scorn.

Well, yeah, there's that - AND all the draconian measures beings shoved through on his watch, such as the NDAA and Obamacare... of the two, what he DOES takes precedence over what he SAYS.

He's by no means perfect, but from what I can tell he's the best you've got at the moment and may be the best leader and President you've had in a long time.

If he is the "best" we've got, then that is a very sad commentary on 21st century America indeed!

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
reply to post by Juggernog

 

I personally use "communist" because it does have that evil cold-war inflection, which is more viscerally effective than saying "socialist", because so many young people view socialism as a good thing. They are of course misinformed.

But it gives actual communists a bad association, puts them in a bad light. It's a disservice to actual communists. They were worthy enemies, enemies worthy of a man.

Obama is not.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

In truth he's a collectivist who's philosophy is Bodhisatva-like in so far as our individual salvation is tied to our collective salvation, something that I've come to agree with, provided it NEVER undermines our individual civil liberty and unfettered and unconstrained freedom (within the rule of law), that's when all is lost.

edit on 30-1-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

He is neither a god nor a savior of any kind. Bringing "salvation" into it, whether individual or collective, pushed beyond his remit.

The halos on the MSM magazine covers isn't real - they airbrushed it in.

As an aside, collectivism ALWAYS undermines individual liberties and freedoms. The two are mutually exclusive. Also, I don't recognize any such construct as "civil liberties". The entire concept is designed to attempt an end run against natural liberties - it attempts to replace the freedoms we are all born with by a "civil issue" of revocable "freedoms" emanating from another group of humans - in this case the government.

What the government gives, the government can take away. That is in no way, shape, or form to be construed as "freedom". Freedom is not something you accept "by your leave, m'lord".

Originally posted by Astyanax

It is distressingly obvious that most people who hate Barack Obama (and they are very much in the minority, both in America and in the rest of the world) hate him because he's a black man.

Those spurious charges of "racism" just never get old or wear out, do they? If you've got nothing else, you can always fall back on cries of "racism!" !

Thanks for putting up this thread. It brings the creeps out of the woodwork and helps us identify them for future reference.

Ummm... I sort of hate to bring it up, but scarier people than you have already identified me "for future reference". You really ought to see the folder jackets! If THEY haven't made me bow down... and of course, since they have all that info on me already, they have a bit more respect than to simply dismiss me as a "creep". Never underestimate your opponent. The scary people don't.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

He's black enough for them. That's enough to be going on with. You have any better theories?

They don't get any whiter than Jimmy Carter, and I hated him with the same passion. As a matter of fact, I can't yet tell which is going to have been more destructive to America - Carter or Obama. Obama is certainly giving Carter a run for the money, and may outstrip him in destructiveness in the end, by virtue of having the advantage of building on the foundation that Bush built.

Bush was a totalitarian jackass as well - do I you also suppose I dislike him because of race?

reply to post by NewAgeMan

It's not so much about Obama but about the government and the office of the President as a whole. I personally knew this country was F'd up right after 911 when the proof emerged about the planes flying into the towers and pentagon.

Obama was supposed to represent change but instead he came in and took over where Bush left off. I knew we were in trouble as soon as he signed another stimulus package and gave it to the very assholes that created the 2008 bubble to burst. That pissed me off!

Everyone should have known his campaign was total BS. Let's face it, how many people would actually have wanted to really become President behind the wake of George B? The evil do-gooders threw us a curve and the American people fell for it. Hook, Line, and Sinker! A lot of people thought he was going to be different but lets be realistic; he's an attorney, from Chicago, who probably has some serious identity issues. Those are three bad characteristics in anybody's book.

If you get a chance, look up the video, "the Grinding Down of America"; that should provide some answers.

I hope this clears it up a little as to why people appear to be pissed at Obama, at least that's my opinion.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


no he won't, nor will anyone else. people around here love throwing out their favorite platitudes, but if you ask for more than that you'll just get more played out platitudes. the hatred towards obama is as real as it is racially motivated, in my opinion. im white, american, male, southern, and none too fond of obama but i can see the hatred for what it is. there are many legitimate reasons a person might disagree with the president, but there are far less reasons to explain the hatred and vitriol expressed towards him by many people.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by harvib

 

No it's the whole thing, his Healthcare Plan, even though they had to end up ramming it through which was divisive, was a good thing and necessary.

No.

It was in no way a good thing, not by any stretch of the imagination. NO ONE, not government, not citizen, has the right to force me to make a purchase of something I neither want nor need. The ONLY good to come out of it is a "good" opportunity for me to practice civil disobedience and refusal to comply. Not failure to comply, but a willful refusal to do so.

I'm not going to comply with Obamacare, and I wouldn't comply if governmental edict attempted to force me to buy a pink Cadillac, either. If I don't need something, don't want something, and will never use something, I'm not about to pay for said something, end of story. I don't give a rat's ass WHO says I "have to".

The gay rights issue was a good stance to take. (even though I'm straight and a Christian).

Got no quarrel with that, in theory. I think gays ought to have the same precise rights as the rest of us - but should not have MORE rights, or be "more equal" than the rest.

The immigration reform and soon to come Education reform are good things.

If, by "immigration reform" you are using code for amnesty, then it's NOT a good thing. You don't reward people who START OUT by breaking your laws with a citizenship, and if they've not broken law, then there is no need for an "amnesty".

I don't know what "education reform" is code for, so I can't address that, as to whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.

Ending the wars. Very important.

Yes, it is. I doubt he gets around to that, however. There's not much time in his agenda between bouts of shoving draconian "reforms" down the American gullet.

Avoiding war with Iran.

I may disagree there - I'm not sure. I'll avoid conflict with no one who really wants it. On the other hand, we should not be PURSUING conflict, either. There is a place between cowardly "avoidance" and aggressive "pursuit" that suits me.

Re-presenting a friendlier, soft power USA within a multilateral global framework - check.

?

What?

?

How does an obsequious approach to international politics equate to ANY kind of "power", "soft" or not?

And to top it off I think he's the right kind of Christian, from what I've seen and heard.

From what I've seen and heard, he's not ANY kind of Christian - nor is he any variety of Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu that I've ever run across. The man appears to be entirely areligious, but that's not a bad mark against him - it doesn't matter to me what he believes. He hasn't been hired to run a church or masjid, but to operate a government.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Revealation

 

Oh, I don't plan to argue with you. He won, you lost, and nothing you say matters any more.

Have a nice day!

Ah.

I see.

"Nothing we say matters any more" is precisely why the American people are upset with Obama.

And you, apparently, have signed on for that.

When they start ignoring what YOU say as well, don't be upset. After all, you gave it to the rest of us, so when it's your turn, don't whine. Rest assured that one day it WILL be your turn - what goes around, comes around.

Until then, you have a nice day, too!

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Given that he is the leader of the country, and appears to want what's best for the American people, like economic recovery and a burgeoning and resurgent middle class, immigration reform, equal rights, education reform, etc.

Obama talks a big game but doesn't play it very well. He's only done one of those you listed...which is the economy. He pumped like 600 billion dollars into it to sustain it but it devalued the dollar. So to be blunt he hasn't really done anything. Except catch Osama Bin Laden but we all know he died a long time ago.

Maybe it's none of my business, but it appears to me that Obama was dealt a very bad hand in the post Bush/Cheney era, and that he's done the best he could with the resources available to him. You elected him with a majority of the vote and then re-elected him.

Yeah, whoever became president after Bush and Cheney inherited a complete mess. Bush ****** up this country BIG TIME, its not all Obama's fault. Obama was just brought in to fix the problems but I think they are beyond fixing.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I'm an American born and raised and I don't "get it" either. You're gonna get a lot of this kind of argument..." This's 'merica, we don't need no communist rule. We like our guns and welfare. That Obama ain't nothin' but a dirty terririst jihad tryin' to take my rights away!" But that's about all the supporting evidence they will give for their dislike of Obama and most of it will be misspelled. I wish you luck sorting through the hate speeches trying to find a calm and well reasoned argument...you are going to need it.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


First, there is no collective salvation in the Bible. That is a notion that is put forth by James Cone and other Socialist/Marxist/Communist proponents.

Second, the values of the American people since the American Revolution have been for rugged individualism and liberty, not collectivism and Socialism and the Nanny State.

Third, why do you mock Jesus by posting a pic of him with a Santa hat? And you call yourself New Age?

Oh yah, and fourth, opposition to a lousy agenda, lousy politics, fraud, manipulation, and stealing from the public coffers, cronyism, appointing Communists to unelected positions, not to mention trampling the Constitution and our liberties, as well as drone killing in our names, assassinations of American citizens abroad, and detention without just cause or trial, is not hatred but common sense and righteous indignation which is completely founded on rational principles.
Just because you believe in Socialism and Collectivism does not mean we have to. I do not have to accept Obama trashing our country and our Constitution just because you don't understand it.