Patriots don't secede

Originally posted by HopSkipJump





If you are ranting and raving, wishing to rise up against the government that we, as a majority put into place, you cannot call yourself a patriot because you are NOT supporting the country.

Sorry but I can't agree with you one this, if you feel that the people holding government positions are abusing their powers and are a bunch of thieving, corrupt, law breaking, money hungry cretins. And it reaches a point where the only actions that will produce the results that the American people want as a whole then I believe it is VERY patriotic to "rise up" against them and put something else is place or at the very least overhaul the current system to better suit the world we live in today.

If being patriotic is defending your country and what it stands for, how is it not patriotic to fight the people in power to defend it and what it stands for????

reply to post by HopSkipJump


Apparently, you fail to see the difference between the government as it used to be, versus the way it works now. This is my seminal distinction, and one which you obviously are having trouble understanding.

WHO HOLDS THE OFFICE MEANS JACK SQUAT TO ME. Can you understand that? It is what these people DO when they are in office that I have a problem with. Illegal things. Corrupt things. Things that are clearly against constitutional law, but they do them anyway and nobody seems to care because the good and the bad are all lumped together as "government".

I don't know why this is hard for you to grasp, I really don't. We can pull a bunch of regular people off the street and put them into office and if they do the same criminal acts, I would have a problem with it. It isn't the WHO, it is the WHAT.

The only thing you're proving to me is that you are so eager to make your point that you are failing to actually read what I'm writing, and I think I'm being very clear here.

EDIT: Let me add here for ABSOLUTE CLARITY for the OP that the way the government operates now is the "new government", and it is nothing like the founding fathers created. Yet, if we are to believe you, a patriot is one who believes and supports whatever their current government does, because it still sorta resembles the one from before. Let me also state that it is my opinion that nothing will be fixed in the District of Corruption unless we all band together and get rid of all of them, send them all away, and start from absolute scratch. Then retract all those laws allowing big money and lobbyists to peddle their influence. Then and ONLY then would I agree that it is a government worth being patriotic about.

reply to post by FissionSurplus


Hence my quote from Thomas Jefferson in my signature.

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

jpetrie.myweb.uga.edu...

Originally posted by RN311

Originally posted by HopSkipJump





If you are ranting and raving, wishing to rise up against the government that we, as a majority put into place, you cannot call yourself a patriot because you are NOT supporting the country.

Sorry but I can't agree with you one this, if you feel that the people holding government positions are abusing their powers and are a bunch of thieving, corrupt, law breaking, money hungry cretins. And it reaches a point where the only actions that will produce the results that the American people want as a whole then I believe it is VERY patriotic to "rise up" against them and put something else is place or at the very least overhaul the current system to better suit the world we live in today.

If being patriotic is defending your country and what it stands for, how is it not patriotic to fight the people in power to defend it and what it stands for????

But you don't get rid of those breaking the law by rising up and seceding from the country. You get rid of them by going through the channels set up by the Constitution. You bring charges against those breaking laws and violating the Constitution, you don't take your ball and go home. That's what so many who claim they are patriots are not understanding.

We cannot overtake them with force. It's not something we are capable of doing. As soon as we make the first move, we become traitors and the military would have no choice but fight against us because we struck first. They won't strike the citizens first because their first order of duty is to defend the Constitution.

We made the mistake with bush (although people didn't try to secede, they just didn't act). When bush declared war on a sovereign nation and it was found that there were no WMD's, he should have been impeached immediately. We dropped the ball. If Obama tries to circumvent the 2nd Ammendment, he should be impeached.
I don't see what he is doing as taking away our right to bear arms. That part is being twisted and distorted by the opposing forces. However, if he ever does try to "throw out" part of the Constitution, then yes, we should impeach him and prevent it from happening.

Those who oppose him are not being truthful, nor are they handling it correctly. They are threatening to secede because they know they are distorting what is being said. They have no grounds upon which to act legally so they are trying other methods to manipulate the group of people who are against him. If they had the grounds upon which to impeach, they would jump on it like white on rice. He's not changing the second ammendment, he's not taking away the right to bear arms. If he did, there would be large groups from both parties standing up and bringing charges against him. Since that isn't taking place, the talking heads from faux news can only use popoganda to manipulate select groups of people into thinking something that doesn't exist and promote them to secede from the Union.

They are doing all they can to force the hand of the people in charge to try to get a reason to throw him out. They are manipulating and distorting. They are worse than the carpetbaggers. They lost the election so they have to strike against him in any way they can. The truth doesn't work for them, so they are using lies. Their lies are working. How many groups are saying their state wants to secede (even though they are not a majority of said state)? How many have a false idea of what the legislation is? How many take quotes out of context just because faux news told them to?

I absolutely despised bush, with every ounce of my being, BUT, I was an American citizen before he became president and I am an American citizen now that he isn't president. The same goes for Obama. I'm not "crazy about him" but I don't hate him like I did bush. I also don't think he is putting our country in as much danger as bush did. However, if he ever does, I will support bringing charges against him and removing him from office just as I would any other President who abused his power.

reply to post by FissionSurplus


One more time.

The people who hold office are NOT the "Government". They are only elected officials. The Government is the structure by which those elected officials an operate and that structure is based on the Constitution.

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

EDIT: Let me add here for ABSOLUTE CLARITY for the OP that the way the government operates now is the "new government", and it is nothing like the founding fathers created. Yet, if we are to believe you, a patriot is one who believes and supports whatever their current government does, because it still sorta resembles the one from before. Let me also state that it is my opinion that nothing will be fixed in the District of Corruption unless we all band together and get rid of all of them, send them all away, and start from absolute scratch. Then retract all those laws allowing big money and lobbyists to peddle their influence. Then and ONLY then would I agree that it is a government worth being patriotic about.

edit on 19-1-2013 by FissionSurplus because: Clarification

Do you support:

freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
Right to keep and bear arms.
Protection from quartering of troops.
Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
Civil trial by jury.
Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Do you support having three branches of government, the Judicial, the legislative and the executive? Do you support the US Constitution? THAT is our government.

What you are opposed to is nothing more than elected officials, not the government. Our government is a Democratic Republic. We vote our leaders in, there are laws that are followed, proceedures adhered to and an organized structure. That is government, not elected officials.

Those who want to secede would be strking against these things, they would be striking against the Constitution and the framework upon which our nation was built. There are other ways to deal with elected officials you don't agree with and those ways are set forth in the Constitution that we defend, they are set forth by the Government that we created, that we elected the officials to perform within.

The actions being taken by the people calling themselves "patriots" are acts of treason, not acts of patriotism. They are seeking to remove themselves from the union of states because they don't like elected leaders that will change in four years or sooner if laws are broken and they are removed.

Elected leaders are NOT the government, they are nothing but office holders.

reply to post by HopSkipJump

If the procedures established by the constitution were foolproof in maintaining the spirit of it, you would be right. As it turns out, they are not.

So those who stand by the spirit of the constitution can justly rebel against the government that has come into existence through the procedures established by it, when it violates the spirit of the constitution. The rebellion may take many forms, including secession.

Of course, those that are not interested in the spirit of the constitution are bound to deny positive labels to those rebelling, but that is hardly surprising. Those that would be rebelling, do so because they know it is the right thing to do, not to earn any labels from the rest.

Originally posted by METACOMET

So who exactly do you think the founding fathers were revolting against? Their government perhaps?

They were not patriots of the british crown (their government at the time). They were traitors of the crown, and had they lost the war, would have been hung as such.

Likewise, those whom speak of secession today are not patriots of the American government, they are traitors of the government..and should they start and lose a war of secession, they should also be executed for high treason against the nation...however, should they win, I am certain the whatever..new southern states or whatever will call the founders patriots of that.

The Ops is correct..it is literally impossible to consider yourself a patriot of the united states, and its constitutional government if you are demanding secession..you are by definition, a traitor...like the founding fathers were to their government when they did their thing, and like the southern generals were when they lost the civil war.

Lets deal in actual meaning of words verses hurt feelings and whatnot.

Originally posted by gunshooter
OP has a real good troll thread going on here

2

Trolling or not, it is a factually correct statement.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
reply to post by FissionSurplus

 

One more time.

The people who hold office are NOT the "Government". They are only elected officials. The Government is the structure by which those elected officials an operate and that structure is based on the Constitution.

I think there is a part of the population that truly doesn't understand this simple fact. They are king minded and think that current office holders = the entire aspect of government...therefore you must elect a king you want, else its not your king.

Its unnerving..especially since these are the tards that go on about "real americans"...which in their mind is clearly ignorant americans whom do not understand the government verses the current holders of office.

I chuckle whenever any "real American" discusses secession..they are typically too mentally challenged to realize the irony they continue on about.

I would prefer to be sovereign, independent, and utterly free than to be some servant to some ideal or to anyone telling me what's right or wrong or to anyone imposing consequences on me for my choices except for those who my choices directly effect. You're damn right I'm not a patriot and definitely not your definition of a patriot and I wish every power grabbing government in the world would disappear tomorrow so that I can for once truly call myself, "free". To hell with anyone that tries to tell me how to live.

You wrote this thread assuming that anyone who might consider themself to not be a patriot should somehow feel shamed and inferior. But im proud and content and there's no ideal you could shove down my throat to change that.

I don't need a government, and neither does any other strong minded individual. What people like me need is independence and the authority to deal with our own problems. F@@@ patriotism. You pledge allegiance to those who want to enslave you.

The people in NAZI germany was very patriotic and look where that got them. From my point of view being a Patriot is being an small minded fool who can be manipulated and follows lower ideals, most of the times without questions just because a group of people have created an illusion that this group is better than another group.

It is a group using an ego to make themselves feel good and against anyone who are not them. It is the tool of bullies not morally sane people who can stand up for what is right against a insane group however big or powerful it is.

Being a patriot means you are choosing a grouping like in high school and hate the other groupings. Jock or nerd or something else. US or Iran or something else. Same small minded bullies and manipulators use these groupings to get people to do what they want and they are more cunning as they get older.

You do get that as a soul Bush and Hitler are not that different. Insane, dualistic and ego parasitical. Bush just has a better propaganda machine and was on the winning side. They both used fear in the exact same way to get their followers to dance after their music.

A patriot defends the people, even if the constitution is turned against them.

The people are the country, to defend the people is to defend the country.

The constitution is a document, nothing more. It is an agreement between the people to govern their lives, strengthen their union and defend their nation.

This agreement has a catch, united you will stand, divided you will fall. united as one nation, one people, Or divided as 50 states, it cant be both.

It doesn't tell you what will keep you standing or what will make you fall, that's why it can be amended.

There is no other option, nor escape of these two outcomes other than dissolving the constitution.

This agreement between the people with each other can be walked away without penalty at anytime as you are a free people on a free land.

Not one person can tell another free person how to govern his life without his consent. This consent is agreed upon with a cast of a vote. And as freemen you can take and give it back as you so choose as many times as you choose.

for all men are created equal, and have equal say on how each of you should be governed.

I believe this to be a brilliant thread. I laud your devotion and loyalty, sir, and would be honored to have you on my side.

The question here is the "grey area".

I'm sure that this doesn't apply to you, but, under your general arguement, the soldiers, frankly all the supporers, of the Nazi Germany where "patriots". They certainly considered themselves patriots.

In that light, perhaps "patriot" isn't such a good thing. LOL.

My question to you, sincerly, is where is your "line"? At what point would you say, what just a darn minute! Where is that line crossed?

Obviously, you haven't reached your "line" yet and you may be even right! The truth is your viewpoint has made me aware of the "possiblity" that I am wrong and we haven't reached the point yet.

Have you even considered that your might be wrong? That it's not the current individuals occupying the seats of power, but the system itself that's broken? That the "ideal" of the constitution and the reality of the current gov't grows farther and farther apart almost on a daily basis?

I beieve to an extent you are correct, given enough time, proper parenting and education, we can rehabilitate the "idea" of the constitution and move, once again, closer to that ideal.

Many feel it's too late, if for no other reason than no easy solution is apparent. On the other hand, patriotism can be the "easy out" as well. never considering the painful evaluation of the worthiness of the present system.

Where would you say, enough! At what point would you say we were right?

Your thread has made me look at my own opinions, newly, and I once again question whether we have in fact past the point of no rerturn.

I'm no longer 100% sure...I hope your not, as well.

Originally posted by Observor
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

If the procedures established by the constitution were foolproof in maintaining the spirit of it, you would be right. As it turns out, they are not.

So those who stand by the spirit of the constitution can justly rebel against the government that has come into existence through the procedures established by it, when it violates the spirit of the constitution. The rebellion may take many forms, including secession.

Of course, those that are not interested in the spirit of the constitution are bound to deny positive labels to those rebelling, but that is hardly surprising. Those that would be rebelling, do so because they know it is the right thing to do, not to earn any labels from the rest.

edit on 20-1-2013 by Observor because: (no reason given)

If you rebel against the government you are a traitor, not a patriot. If you rebel against an elected leader, then you are doing your job as a citizen. The people spewing things from all sides these days don't understand that elected officials are NOT the government, they are elected officials. Those who are saying they want to secede are not patriots, they are abandoning the Constitution and are traitors to the United States of America, the Constitution and the founding fathers. If they REALLY wanted to defend the Constitution, they would be working to change any laws and any elected officials that may be opposing the Constitution, not saying they want to secede. When they secede, the are leaving the Constitution behind. They are not patriots, they are traitors. Cowardly traitors at that. "I'll just take my ball and go home"... that's not a patriot, that's a coward and a traitor.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

They were not patriots of the british crown (their government at the time). They were traitors of the crown, and had they lost the war, would have been hung as such.

Likewise, those whom speak of secession today are not patriots of the American government, they are traitors of the government..and should they start and lose a war of secession, they should also be executed for high treason against the nation...

Thank you for seeing the truth of the matter.
Regardless of what they wish to call themselves, they are traitors. They are not defending the Constitution, they are not defending their nation, they are traitors plain and simple.
If they do secede and form a new nation, they can be patriots of THAT nation, but they are traitors to this one, the one that was formed in 1776, the one they have been part of their entire lives. They are traitors to the US Constitution and the United States of America if they secede.

for your ability to see the truth and deny ignorance

reply to post by SaturnFX

The Ops is correct..it is literally impossible to consider yourself a patriot of the united states, and its constitutional government if you are demanding secession..you are by definition, a traitor...like the founding fathers were to their government when they did their thing, and like the southern generals were when they lost the civil war.

The founding fathers didn't set up a "Union", they set up a confederation of states and most of them were quite jealous of their separate state's autonomy, even after the Articles of Confederation was replaced by the Constitution. It wasn't until Lincoln's war that the union snuffed out individual state's rights; and the 14th amendment put anyone natural born in any of the states a citizen "under the jurisdiction of the federal government."

I doubt if many here can even name more than a few of the founding fathers, much less tell what it was that they intended and how their attitudes match up with an all encompassing federal dictatorship.

reply to post by SaturnFX


If I could give applause, you would definitely get them. Thank you for being intelligent enough to understand what the Government is and what part each elected official plays. I only wish others were able to do so. They make themselves look foolish and are doing more to harm the country than to fix it.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


I only made it about halfway through your first post and I had to respond.

You have really missed the point or perhaps are intentionally missing the point. "True" patriots support an ideal...not a borderline system on a map.

I am a patriot and I support the Constitution. I support the Republic...I support the ideologies our founding fathers put down in parchment and ink. If the "Governing body" is turning against the founding principals...then there is a problem.

We are a Constitutional Republic wherein the Government is restrained from absolute power by a document...we are also a "Nomocracy"...the rule of law...where the law is equally applied to the many, the few and even the one. Any deviency from this principle is the breakdown from a Republic into a democracy...and as a very-very wise man wrote thousands of years ago...

"Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotism."...Aristotle

If you do not see this happening before your eyes...well...enjoy the fantasy.