Patriots don't secede

reply to post by DarthMuerte


Yeah, what this one said!
We the people are the government, sometimes we mess up on who we put in office is all.
We can impeach or simply vote out idiots as we see em, if popular opinion allows.
But we the people make up the government.

More on topic, I would never secede.
I would stand a better chance of sticking around and righting wrongs.
This is MY country after all.

There are different levels ,different ideas of patriotism.

One is like you said,which basically blindly follows the government no matter the political affiliation.
Those are devout patriots.

Another is symbolic,singing the songs and saluting the flag,stuff like that.

Then there are the critical patriots.
They guard they're way of life and they're beliefs as to what the country or nation should be.
For the people,against the tyranny of the government.
Those are the ones who will stand up and protect our rights,not to secede ,but to fight.

I was talking to someone about this the other night. He was drunk and said something ignorant. It was something like "Who cares what the government does? We're in Texas, we'll just secede." So I said "Wrong! If you really care about the second amendment, you don't leave when it's being attacked! You stay and protect it."

I wouldn't respect anyone that would leave and let everything our forefathers fought for go to waste. A true patriot would fight for the ideas our country was founded on. So, at least the OP got part of it right.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


You seem to be under the misconception that our current iteration of government even remotely resembles that put in place by the founding fathers of this nation.

It does not.

You are also trolling your own thread, which is counterproductive to hosting a civil debate on such matters.

I recommend you reevaluate your approach to this endeavor and try again.

-Respectfully.
Watchitburn

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
Boy howdy.....this happens so rarely for me here on ATS.....I do not wish to be rude, but I disagree with absolutely everything you wrote.

The government as it was set up by the founding fathers, and the bastardized, diseased, fascist state we have now, are two completely different things. Therefore, a true patriot would wish to see things rectified, and not go along with the status quo.

To me, a true patriot sees the current state of affairs and desires nothing more than to see it corrected back to its original form.

I don't see where seceeding from a diseased, cancerous mess is unpatriotic, either.

You are disagreeing with the political office holders at the present time and you are transferring that to the government as a whole. The people who hold an office are NOT the "Government". The government is the system that has been set up according to the Constitution. You are using your dislike of a current office holder to justify ... well.... treason against the Constitution that you claim you support.

The small groups of people within certain states saying they want to secede are doing so for one reason and one reason only, their political party didn't win the election. They can deny it all they want, but that's the sole reason for it. It's a bad case of "sore loser-ism". Instead of working to better their platform and to promote the passing of laws they support or the defeat of laws they don't support they want to play the game of "I'll take my ball and go away".

Our government was set up to be representative of the people at large. There are elections where the majority gets to choose who will hold certain offices. Just because your side loses doesn't mean the form of government has changed, it doesn't mean the Constitution has changed. It merely means that the people who are presently in charge of upholding the Constitution are of a different political party than the minority of voters happen to be. If the losing side seceeded every time we had an election, our country wouldn't be over 200 years old.

The people who are shouting about seceeding are not a majority, not even a majority of their own states. They are ranting and raving because somebody told them to rant and rave. The people who told them to rant and rave knew that those people didn't have a concept of what the government actually is or even what they were ranting and raving about.

You don't like the President. Well, at least half the country didn't like the last president but they weren't ranting and raving about wanting to secede. They worked hard to ensure their candidate won the next election. At one point in the last presidency, only 23% of the population approved of him. That didn't mean they wanted to commit treason and do away with the government, that meant they didn't like the guy who sat in the White House.

If people are not able to differentiate between the government and a political office, our country won't survive much longer anyway. When you go against the government, when you want to secede, you are going directly against the US Constitution, not against Obama, not against Congress, you are going against the United States of America. There is a big BIG difference in a political office holder and "the government".

I think if one was to look up traitor, they may just find your picture among others. I shouldn't be surprised if your post would be there in the examples as well!

Originally posted by kosmicjack
It's patriotic to stand up and dare to say something is broken and to find a way to work together and fix it.

It's spoiled, self-serving and opportunistic to take the ball and try to kick the rest of us out of the park when you don't get your way, despite the fact that all of us paid for the park in blood, sweat and tears and all of us just want to have fun...

...without getting shot.

Absolutely!!!

I'm very happy that someone else sees this!

Originally posted by g146541
reply to post by DarthMuerte

 

More on topic, I would never secede.
I would stand a better chance of sticking around and righting wrongs.
This is MY country after all.

And that is exactly what should be done. You don't just take the ball and go home, you work to right the wrongs and adhere to the US Constitution, the document that is the framework of our government. NOT the political office holders from either party.

Originally posted by kdog1982
There are different levels ,different ideas of patriotism.

One is like you said,which basically blindly follows the government no matter the political affiliation.
Those are devout patriots.

Another is symbolic,singing the songs and saluting the flag,stuff like that.

Then there are the critical patriots.
They guard they're way of life and they're beliefs as to what the country or nation should be.
For the people,against the tyranny of the government.
Those are the ones who will stand up and protect our rights,not to secede ,but to fight.

edit on 19-1-2013 by kdog1982 because: (no reason given)

No, a patriot never blindly follows anything. A patriot supports the ideas upon which a country was founded, a patriot supports the form of government that holds the country together.

So many are still focusing on politics instead of on government. The Government is NOT a political party. Office holders within the government are members of political parties and those office holders have term limits. Those office holders are also bound by the Constitution and limited in what they can and cannot do.

A true patriot holds those people accountable to the Constitution/government. A true patriot never follows anyone blindly, they follow the laws set forth by their country (set forth by the Constitution) and hold their political leaders to the standards that are set forth. They don't get mad just because they lost an election and want to leave the entire system of government because of it.

Originally posted by Ireminisce
I was talking to someone about this the other night. He was drunk and said something ignorant. It was something like "Who cares what the government does? We're in Texas, we'll just secede." So I said "Wrong! If you really care about the second amendment, you don't leave when it's being attacked! You stay and protect it."

I wouldn't respect anyone that would leave and let everything our forefathers fought for go to waste. A true patriot would fight for the ideas our country was founded on. So, at least the OP got part of it right.

Only part of it?

Nowhere did I say that we should allow the second ammendment to be changed. I own guns, I have a concealed carry permit, I exercise the freedoms set forth by the Constitution on a daily basis.

However, I don't say I'm going to leave my country if someone I voted for didn't win an election. I stay and am even more vigilant that the person I didn't vote for adheres to what was set forth by the Constitution. I was opposed to George Bush attacking Iraq and worked to promote impeachment for war crimes because he violated the Constitution with his actions. If Obama bans firearms (which he isn't trying to do, that's just the talking heads trying to get people in an uproar), then I will work to promote impeachment for him for violating our Second Ammendment rights.

I am a patriot, I support my country and my government as set forth by the US Constitution. I know the difference between the government and elected officials and private companies. Many don't and those are the people saying they want to secede.

Originally posted by ajay59
I think if one was to look up traitor, they may just find your picture among others. I shouldn't be surprised if your post would be there in the examples as well!

You are very incorrect in your assumption based on a lack of knowledge in what a patriot and a traitor are. Those who are saying they wish to secede are traitors. They are turning against their country. Seceding isn't supporting your country, it is abandoning your country. If they secede, they are saying they do not support the US Constitution, they are not patriots, they are traitors.

Don't be discouraged, patriot. You are correct.

Oh and by the way. I thank you for your service even though others don't because they seem to have missed that part as usual.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


I agree with everything there. I must have misunderstood your OP. I think we're on the same page, as long as you're not against the constitution.

I think this is where you really lost some people:

If you are ranting and raving, wishing to rise up against the government that we, as a majority put into place, you cannot call yourself a patriot

There may come a time when we have to rise up against the government to protect the principles it was founded on. I completely agree that a patriot would not secede.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


You better be careful spouting all that pro-constitutional patriot stuff. The goverment YOU voted for is saying you are a terrorist if you are a constitutionalist. This goverment is now headed by a man who says openly that he is a socialist and wants to take the money from one group and distribute it to another. Where does it cover that in the constitution?

Voted in by the majority? I seriously question that. In a county where I am from they had over 106,000 votes tallied from a county with 99,000 registered voters. Methinks there is something wrong more places than there. The voting process has been shown to be very unreliable at best.

This goverment no longer supports the 1st or 2nd amendment, and the 16th was never ratified by the process described in the very document you mentioned. I am not a secessionist, but neither do I support unlawful and misleading behavior by the people who are running the country.

Beware the new mental health directives added in with the presidential directives, because you and many of us may just fall into those guidelines. Oh, what am I doing in here conversing with a constitutionalist/patriot? I better leave before I get redflagged myself for consorting with a "patriot" like you.

I would consider these men Patriots and they seceded from a tyrannical Government.

They seceded from a foreign power that didn't allow them to have a say in their governance.
It was nothing like today's situation where people had the chance to vote, and the losers refuse to accept reality.

And the founding fathers were nothing like people who call themselves "patriots" today. They were educated men who wrote (and read) books and were friendly with European elites and intellectuals. They wouldn't recognize today's Tea Party losers as patriots

Originally posted by Coopdog
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

You better be careful spouting all that pro-constitutional patriot stuff. The goverment YOU voted for is saying you are a terrorist if you are a constitutionalist.

I didn't vote for a government, I voted for a political candidate for an office. The government was already in effect more than 200 years before the past elelction.
My government doesn't say anything of the like about me. Nor do the office holders. However, there are a lot of talking heads on fake news services that have proven in court they are not news services, only forums of entertainment who want to convince people otherwise.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
Boy howdy.....this happens so rarely for me here on ATS.....I do not wish to be rude, but I disagree with absolutely everything you wrote.

The government as it was set up by the founding fathers, and the bastardized, diseased, fascist state we have now, are two completely different things. Therefore, a true patriot would wish to see things rectified, and not go along with the status quo.

To me, a true patriot sees the current state of affairs and desires nothing more than to see it corrected back to its original form.

I don't see where seceeding from a diseased, cancerous mess is unpatriotic, either.

You are disagreeing with the political office holders at the present time and you are transferring that to the government as a whole. The people who hold an office are NOT the "Government". The government is the system that has been set up according to the Constitution. You are using your dislike of a current office holder to justify ... well.... treason against the Constitution that you claim you support.

The small groups of people within certain states saying they want to secede are doing so for one reason and one reason only, their political party didn't win the election. They can deny it all they want, but that's the sole reason for it. It's a bad case of "sore loser-ism". Instead of working to better their platform and to promote the passing of laws they support or the defeat of laws they don't support they want to play the game of "I'll take my ball and go away".

Our government was set up to be representative of the people at large. There are elections where the majority gets to choose who will hold certain offices. Just because your side loses doesn't mean the form of government has changed, it doesn't mean the Constitution has changed. It merely means that the people who are presently in charge of upholding the Constitution are of a different political party than the minority of voters happen to be. If the losing side seceeded every time we had an election, our country wouldn't be over 200 years old.

The people who are shouting about seceeding are not a majority, not even a majority of their own states. They are ranting and raving because somebody told them to rant and rave. The people who told them to rant and rave knew that those people didn't have a concept of what the government actually is or even what they were ranting and raving about.

You don't like the President. Well, at least half the country didn't like the last president but they weren't ranting and raving about wanting to secede. They worked hard to ensure their candidate won the next election. At one point in the last presidency, only 23% of the population approved of him. That didn't mean they wanted to commit treason and do away with the government, that meant they didn't like the guy who sat in the White House.

If people are not able to differentiate between the government and a political office, our country won't survive much longer anyway. When you go against the government, when you want to secede, you are going directly against the US Constitution, not against Obama, not against Congress, you are going against the United States of America. There is a big BIG difference in a political office holder and "the government".

Oooh, lots of assumptions on your part. Allow me to clarify my position so that you can avoid assuming things that are not true.

You state that the current system of government is the one set up by the constitution. It is not. It may have some of the rudimentary parts of that past system, but the way it works, and the way it has been corrupted, is not the original intent. Therefore, I disagree that the government we have now (you know, the one who goes to war without the consent of congress, the one who is slowly taking away or ignoring our rights, such as the right to free speech, the right to not be held indefinitely without representation and a fair and speedy trial, the right for police officers to have a warrant signed by a judge before they can come busting into your house, guns blazing, etc) is the government that we used to have. I do not recognize our current rogue government as either "government by the people"...or even that it is legitimate.

Secondly, you are in error by assuming that my support of secession is due to not liking who won the election, thereby making it look like a racist thing, or a sore loser thing. Not correct. I don't care who would have won, either sock puppet would still be doing the same bad things, and I just don't see a good outcome.

I am not a secessionist, but if Texas goes, I go with her,

Again, you make the assumption that I am a republican and "my side lost". I'm an independent and I had no side to lose. Too many assumption were made in your post for me to finish it in this post, let me continue in the next one.

I think these people (pro-secession) are becoming confused as they are supporters of freedom, and freedom is one of the founding qualities of the union, therefore under the impression that they are supporting the united states ideology by rising up against the current government who are anti-freedom in their eyes.

But they are not supporters of the union. (Like the OP mentioned quite well) They are just supporters of freedom. It's actually quite ironic because they still use the constitution and the ammendments to exert their power and remove themselves from the union that bears the constitution.

The founding fathers may not still be around, but the constitution still is. By seceding from the united states, they are leaving the constitution and everything a "patriot" stands for.

In other words, to you americans. Don't rage quit because you're on a losing streak. Improve your game. You will be remembered for being a country that "fixed itself" rather than one that "started over" when # got tough

EDIT: If you repair your situation, you will be far stronger and superior, and i will be impressed at what you could achieve.
Just look at the history of athens. Look at how they started, the ottoman period, and where they are now. It proves that nothing can bring them down. The greeks are known as a resilient people. The Americans can share this too.

You are disagreeing with the political office holders at the present time and you are transferring that to the government as a whole. The people who hold an office are NOT the "Government". The government is the system that has been set up according to the Constitution. You are using your dislike of a current office holder to justify ... well.... treason against the Constitution that you claim you support.

The small groups of people within certain states saying they want to secede are doing so for one reason and one reason only, their political party didn't win the election. They can deny it all they want, but that's the sole reason for it. It's a bad case of "sore loser-ism". Instead of working to better their platform and to promote the passing of laws they support or the defeat of laws they don't support they want to play the game of "I'll take my ball and go away".

Our government was set up to be representative of the people at large. There are elections where the majority gets to choose who will hold certain offices. Just because your side loses doesn't mean the form of government has changed, it doesn't mean the Constitution has changed. It merely means that the people who are presently in charge of upholding the Constitution are of a different political party than the minority of voters happen to be. If the losing side seceeded every time we had an election, our country wouldn't be over 200 years old.

The people who are shouting about seceeding are not a majority, not even a majority of their own states. They are ranting and raving because somebody told them to rant and rave. The people who told them to rant and rave knew that those people didn't have a concept of what the government actually is or even what they were ranting and raving about.

You don't like the President. Well, at least half the country didn't like the last president but they weren't ranting and raving about wanting to secede. They worked hard to ensure their candidate won the next election. At one point in the last presidency, only 23% of the population approved of him. That didn't mean they wanted to commit treason and do away with the government, that meant they didn't like the guy who sat in the White House.

If people are not able to differentiate between the government and a political office, our country won't survive much longer anyway. When you go against the government, when you want to secede, you are going directly against the US Constitution, not against Obama, not against Congress, you are going against the United States of America. There is a big BIG difference in a political office holder and "the government".

You claim I'm using my dislike of the current office holder to "justify treason against the constitutuion". Say WHAT?? Unreal what some people can extrapolate from a very basic post. I could just as easily say that, by you accepting the current standard of the way the constitution is being treated like a relic from the past, and has no "value" today, that indeed you are more treasonous than I.

As I stated earlier, I DON'T CARE who won the presidency. It is true that I am very disappointed, and very sickened, by the behavior of Obama, but I was also sick and disgusted by Bush. So, my friend, your attempt to box me into the Dem or Pub square peg hole has failed. I vote independent, and I expect to lose those elections, so I had no real dog in that race.

In essence, your whole argument against me, and why you claim i'm committing treason, is because you want to put me as a sore-loser tea-bagger, and you couldn't be farther from the truth if you tried.

I think this had nothing to do with the election (although you claim that you're so sure you know what everybody's thinking), and has everything to do with our country circling the drain, while we have folks such as yourself telling us that it's always been this way, and we have to support it.

Well, YOU can support our demise. You can support torture, indefinite detention, jailing of peaceful protestors, kill lists, drone bombings, internet spying, a rogue police state, and big money buying elections and votes which profit them, not us. Because that is what our government is doing now.

Our Constitution provides for as many protections as possible to ensure that the Government is subservient to the People and only exists for the purpose of serving the People. However, should these protections fail it is up to the People to rise up against the Government and to put the Government back in it's place. In this capacity, the People act as the fourth branch of government to take control and to override their decisions that violate the Fundamental Rights of the People to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

www.perkel.com...
The above quote is the exact opposite of what you proposed in your OP. Don't turn this into a secessionist issue, there's plenty of threads about that.

reply to post by FissionSurplus


The Constitution still exists. Our laws are made to adhere to the Constitution or they are ruled "UnConstitutional" by the Supreme Court.

It is still the same government that was originally set up that has progressed with time. If you are against the "Government", then you are against the Constitution because the government is based on the Constitution.

Regardless of how much you may twist and turn it, it is and it always has been based on the Constitution. You may not agree with some of the political office holders but that doesn't change what the government is and how it is set up.

You are still failing to see the difference between political office holders and "The Government". Until you are able to make that distinction, you will not realize that everything you have said only reinforces my response to you.