Russia saying Cold War 2 now on.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I don't think it's nitpicky to ask a question in hopes of gaining clarification, no. If I had called you out on it and dogged you over it, then perhaps. (To be fair, you're the one who asked intrptr to name one thing you had stated that wasn't factually correct. When he did so, you tried to counter his response and in so doing actually provided evidence of your own factual error. So you sort of invited this line of questioning and should probably expect it.) But no, my whole point was to ask for clarification because I genuinely wasn't quite sure what you were trying to say, which you have now provided and explained. Thank-you.

I understand the point of your analogy, and it's very true that it can be argued that U.S. deaths resulting from the war have been comparatively negligible. I doubt it feels that way to those servicemen and women's families, however. And U.S. deaths aren't the whole picture, either. I'm someone who feels that one death due to war is too many though, so I'm not someone who will be comforted by numbers if something on the scale of a true Cold War with its requisite proxy conflicts breaks out. I respect everyone's opinions and feelings, however.

Peace.

reply to post by r0nsix


There are plenty of people on the U.S. side that have taken this contest a bit too far. I know many of them and they are a pain in the ass. It is just difficult for them to turn it off as some of them...including myself...have been Cold Warriors for so long that they did not know what to do with themselves when the Soviet Union came crashing down.

Many of them are actually Happy that Putin is attempting to rekindle the Cold War. But Putin is living in the past and this is just for the benefit of Russian Politics and means nothing as far as the realities of the World today.

The Soviets always had a very good and complex Intel network that was comprised of Human assets. They had to have this as the United States was not only decades ahead of them tech wise but also had such a High Tech. Intel system that for the Soviets to do anything on a large scale it was detected. This led to massive underground cities in Siberia that were constructed to hide large scale Military Programs from U.S. Satellites.

As it now stands the Russians are much too far behind to challenge the U.S. Military and the U.S. Military has stopped designing weapons systems to deal with the Russians as there is no point.

Everything that Putin is talking about was over a long time ago.

Split Infinity

reply to post by AceWombat04


I was in no way attempting to belittle the sacrifices made my U.S. Soldiers and their families. I and my Childhood Friends have been directly effected as they have lost their Son in Afghanistan. It was a senseless death of a Sniper who was forced by Policy Makers to be stationed within a village rather than to be hidden on high ground as any sniper should be.

The reasoning behind my post was a response to another who was attempting to show that the U.S. Military was not capable of winning a war. As I have stated...the U.S. Military has not been allowed to fight with the gloves off and if this was the case...we would not have had such issues as we do now.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I hear you. I didn't mean to imply that you were minimizing people's deaths. Apologies if that's what you read in my post. I was just adding my own feelings to the post, not intending to indicate what I thought yours were or to argue against them.

Though, personally, I'd rather not see either side fight anything close to a "gloves off" war in any capacity. I understand how and why things would be different (arguably better) if we had been. But I still don't want to see it, personally. Peace.

reply to post by AceWombat04


I personally would not like to see a Gloves Off War either. Such a War and the level of the Military Force that would be brought to bear would be devastating. Make no mistake however...should there be another Terrorist Attack of the level or greater of 9/11...there are plans to do exactly that.

After reading some posts here by those who stated that the U.S. Military could not properly fight or win a War against countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan as they stated how badly we would loose should the U.S. have to fight Iran or North Korea....I knew that they really had no idea or knowledge of true U.S. Military capabilities.

The U.S. goes out of it's way to prevent unnecessary bloodshed more so than any other country in the History of Warfare. This would change should we again suffer a large scale Terrorist Attack. I have read some of the U.S. Military contingency plans and believe me...if these were enacted it would change the face of the World. Many countries would simply no longer exist and these plans do not call for the use of Nuclear Weapons but they do call for the use of some very exotic weaponry.

Remember such action would only occur in the event of a large scale Terrorist Attack upon the U.S. Mainland or other States or Territories. The act of killing U.S. Civilians in numbers would trigger such Military Plans. It is safe to say that the Middle East would no longer be a staging area for such Terrorist Groups as these plans call for an END GAME SOLUTION which if I were a person or Leader living in the Middle East...I would be scared out of my mind to even think about what exactly this means.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I agree. One of my greatest fears is that another large scale terrorist attack on U.S. soil will one day take place. I don't think people necessarily fully digest the historical significance of 9-11 from a military and even political standpoint. Even Pearl Harbor wasn't an attack on the U.S. mainland. There were submarine and other assaults on the U.S. mainland during WW2 (which most people seem to forget,) but seeing iconic structures in New York city being toppled is an entirely different matter. It set a historical precedent in terms of asymmetric tactics inflicting casualties on the civilian population within the U.S. mainland. If that were to happen again, both the political and therefore military response would be - and would likely have to be - unimaginably robust and unrestrained.

We are not presently using our total manufacturing and economic capacity as we would in a true major theater war, despite people saying we use "every instrument at our disposal to combat terror," etc. It's not like WW2 where we mobilized a high percentage of every manufacturing center in the country - and created more to boot - or even Vietnam where we had active selective service. People think it's bad now with Homeland Security, increased domestic surveillance, and increased military spending (and I agree,) but if we got hit again that bad or worse, I believe it would almost certainly precipitate (eventually at least) those kinds of steps. And even failing that, we aren't utilizing the maximal logistical and power projection capabilities at our disposal right now, as we could if no thought were given to casualty reduction. So I agree on that factual point as well. Given that our response to 9-11 was actually a comparatively restrained one (sad but true,) I don't even want to think about what our response would be to another equivalent or more damaging attack.

Which is one reason I hope a true Cold War isn't being kicked off (or reinvigorated, if you believe it never ended) - because of the direct link between the last one and the current war on terror. The last thing we need in my opinion is a litany of comparatively minor theater conflicts sewing the seeds of future, well armed, well trained asymmetric forces who hate us. (To say nothing of a renewed missile race between us and Russia if it came to that.) I know your point was to say that the true capacity of the U.S. to wage war against Russia et al if it came down to it, isn't indicated by our current posture. And I agree. But I'm equally concerned about the unintended, tertiary side effects of a renewed Cold War.

In a nut shell, my overly-empathetic, peace-desiring person feels that we have seen enough death lately. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail. I'm less concerned about who is capable of what and who would "win," than I am about it not coming to that in the first place. (As I'm sure you are; I'm not indicating you want war. I'd like to think no one does though, sadly, I know that's not the case.)

Peace.

reply to post by Alien Abduct

And christian one fights christian two And nations sigh, yet nothing do And yellow men great power gain From mighty bear with whom they've lain.

Mother Shipton..

What is the debt of the USA. about 16 trillion or so. What further statistical data do you require. But real wealth is in the handful of families that have monopolised the central banking systems worldwide.. With a few exceptions like N.K and Iran.. But they will soon have those too.

reply to post by AceWombat04


I absolutely wish we never had to go to War again...ever. Even the current conflicts are but a shadow of what a true all out conventional U.S. Military Campaign would be. Those who do not understand this are the creators of the danger.

If you look at the Iranian Political and Religious Leadership...they have a very different understanding than the Real Iranian Military Leadership. The actual Iranian Generals and Admirals know only too well what the outcome would be should the Old Religious Guard be so stupid as to order them to block the Strait of Hormuz or publicly declare...whether true or not...that Iran had developed a Nuclear Bomb.

The Iranian Military and ESPECIALLY the Iranian Navy want ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with a War against the United States. They are aware that they...the members of the Iranian Military...would be the first ones to die should these events happen. This is why Secret Private Military to Military talks have been ongoing as it is likely that the Iranian Navy would refuse to block the Strait knowing that to do so would cause the complete obliteration of the Iranian Navy.

The Iranian Political and Religious Leadership would attempt to block the Strait if Iranian Pro-Democracy Forces were to attempt a takeover of that Government. The Old Guard would use the deaths of countless Iranian Sailors as a way to garnish support of their population as they would do anything to stay in power.

North Korean Leadership is equally Power Mad as they also would do anything to remain in power. North Korea has thousands of guns pointed at Seoul and a war would cause great damage to the South. But should the North actually attack the South the U.S. Military response would be...Unimaginable.

The U.S. would pull no punches and a counter strike of such force would involve close to 90 B-52's...many B-1's and wings of B-2's as well as a Missile Strike that has never been seen. Non-Nuclear EMP's would most definitely be used as well as a possibility of the U.S. using Direct Energy Weapons.

North Korea would not be allowed to survive if it were to strike the South and the real danger lies in people of such countries leadership not truly understanding what the realities of an all out U.S. Military strike would be. The U.S. Military directives are not in these instances to just retaliate or as in Iraq to Shock and Awe the enemy...the directives would be to KILL THE ENEMY.

The U.S. Military has not had such a directive since WWII.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Indeed, this is what is meant when reports speak of "concerns over possible miscalculations." (I don't know if everyone understands fully that this is what is meant by that term.) That's the other side of the doctrinal coin that is not underestimating an adversary. Usually people think of it in in terms of forward deploying sufficient forces and capabilities, but it also means not to drift toward an unrealistic or inaccurate perception of the true costs of invoking the conflict in the first place. A truly unrestrained U.S. would be a frightening thing that I don't think many people alive today can really envisage.

When 9-11 happened, a close friend of mine presciently said, "Right now the whole world is going, 'oh crap. What's going to happen now?' and holding its breath." I agreed, and as much as I opposed the wars launched in the wake of those attacks (understand that I'm a pacifist, so I know that may not necessarily be seen as rational, but it's how I feel for better or worse) I will confess that a small part of me was relieved. Because it could have been much, much worse, and the justification for it being so was handed to us on a silver platter. Few in the political arena would have been surprised or been able to outwardly blame us in the days after those horrific events.

My father was a special forces MSG and then worked briefly with the CIA in some capacity in the 60s and 70s, and he has a keen interest in history and military strategy. We clash a bit because of my pacifist attitude, but we have had a lot of very deep discussions about the implications of various scenarios over the years from a military standpoint, and his opinion is that a true "gloves off," or as he would put it, "full tilt boogie," U.S. war would not be what most people imagine. We are in agreement on that point.

Peace.

reply to post by AceWombat04


It was General Colin Powell who desperately convinced then President Bush not to over respond as talk about invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and North Korea all at the same time was on going. Talk over completely taking over the entire Middle East region also was talked about.

Pakistan was told straight out that it either was with us or we would Bomb them to oblivion. Musharraf said later that he actually war gamed the U.S. before giving an answer but decided it would be suicide not to help the U.S.

Russian Diplomats were informed by the U.S. State Dept. not to get in the way of any U.S. action as to do so would represent an act of War.

You are right...it could have been MUCH worse.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Yeah, I remember Musharraf saying that. I also remember the Rumsfeld memo, "Go massive. Sweep it all up." *Shudders.* I don't like remembering those times. But it does succinctly sum up the potential scenarios we're discussing.

Peace.

reply to post by AceWombat04


What to many who have done work in this field...Putin's continual fanning the flames about another Cold War has too many out of work planners all hot and bothered. It is talk by these people rather than what Putin is saying that has me worried.

The ONLY way another Cold War will occur is if it is initiated by the U.S. side. Russia has no real ability to start this up again but we certainly do. I really do not want to see that happen.

Putin is one serious Pain in the Ass. He knows only too well what he is doing and the best thing we could do is ignore him. That would piss him off to no end as nothing drives a guy like him more crazy than to be ignored and thus seen as unimportant.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Still do you not think you are being nit picky?

Just be careful is all.
I do it too.
And I hate admitting it.

reply to post by intrptr


Ehhh...I was a bit off. What are you gonna do? LOL!

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

It ain't no thing...

See ya on the boards!

Russia Launches a Red October Submarine...

What are these Communist countries (Russia, China, and North Korea) gearing up for..???

reply to post by weavty1


Since there is absolutely no use or reason for the Russians to be building these subs...one can only think they are being built for sale to China. The Russian Missile system would not be for sale but this looks like something the Russians would love to make money on.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by Alien Abduct

 

But real wealth is in the handful of families that have monopolised the central banking systems worldwide.. With a few exceptions like N.K and Iran.. But they will soon have those too.

edit on 31-12-2012 by purplemer because: (no reason given)

Way to source your claims..

So... are you saying that those families are NOT western powers? If not then what are they?

About the Russians starting a cold war....that's laughable. The Russians could no more have a cold war of any significance with the United States than say Brazil, they have about the same GDP.

Cold wars take money and Russia is broke compared to the United States.

Explain what the 16 trillion dept has to do with anything?


-Alien

reply to post by Alien Abduct

So... are you saying that those families are NOT western powers? If not then what are they?

If you follow the money.. Those families are Jewish... They own most of the worlds centralized banking system. Every note printed it a debt owned to them.

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by Alien Abduct

 

So... are you saying that those families are NOT western powers? If not then what are they?

If you follow the money.. Those families are Jewish... They own most of the worlds centralized banking system. Every note printed it a debt owned to them.

Which families? Sources?

Would you address the rest of my last post?

-Alien