To U.K. Members Suggesting A U.S. Repeal Of The Second Amendment

Originally posted by Logos23

Originally posted by infolurker

Originally posted by Logos23
reply to post by infolurker

 

If you want to see the official UK statistics and trend's pertaining to crime including violent crime and also gun crime see my link I posted earlier in the thread.........I looked at your link you posted on another topic and most of that was what was being reported by tabloids and the media...look at the hard facts INSTEAD!
yahoo answers?? Pleeeeeaaasssseeee! *roll's eye's*

Yeah, I know it hurts.

What do you dispute? My opinion of the 'zealousness" or any of the story links? Is anything I posted not true?

edit on 22-12-2012 by infolurker because: (no reason given)

Again... look at the official statistics and trends in the link I posted.....relaying to me what the tabloids have to say on the matter and the mis representation of the facts are a waste of both of our time.

The data shows that nearly 8% of UK residents will be a victim of violent crime, and just over 2% of US residents will be a victim of violent crime?

www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

www2.fbi.gov...



OK, now answer my question, anything I post not true?



Go with nationmaster on some of the better ones;

Rape per capita: www.nationmaster.com...
www.nationmaster.com...
Assault per capita: www.nationmaster.com...
Total Crime Victims: www.nationmaster.com...

reply to post by Logos23


You should try a 40degC Christmas one year lol, you'll never complain about rain again I promise

Anyways, I should stop going off topic. Sorry

reply to post by infolurker


2% of 300 million is 6 million.

8% of 50 million is about 4 million.

You've actually just proven that the US has almost twice the rate of violent crime than the UK

Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by infolurker

 

2% of 300 million is 6 million.

8% of 50 million is about 4 million.

You've actually just proven that the US has almost twice the rate of violent crime than the UK

edit on 22/12/2012 by Kryties because: (no reason given)

# sure, per capita no. But any-way, you are more likely not to get shot so that is really all that matters.... (spine, cough)
www.nationmaster.com...

According to the post by the op, I read it and it said it was from 2003 then changed it to 2009 and nothing about 2012 at all. We in the UK don't get headlines every week about groups of people who have been shot dead for no apparent reason. Maybe when a someone breaks into a house and,the homeowner has a legally owned and lawful gun and shoots at them to protect himself and his,family.
The last time I shot a firearm was a shotgun and that was about 20 years ago and have never seen or held a gun since and don't want to even though I fired guns in the British Army when I was younger.

reply to post by infolurker

Originally posted by infolurker

The data shows that nearly 8% of UK residents will be a victim of violent crime, and just over 2% of US residents will be a victim of violent crime?

www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

www2.fbi.gov...

edit on 22-12-2012 by infolurker because: (no reason given)

OK, now answer my question, anything I post not true?

edit on 22-12-2012 by infolurker because: (no reason given)

The point was about the claim of violent crime increasing in the UK....it hasn't....it's reduced by 47% since 1995. And considering that the ban on handgun's was passed in 1997 then the argument about banning gun's in the UK made it a more violent nation are redundant!

Oh and just as a side note.....comparing the UK and US violent crime rate is actually impossible! What the US and the UK class as a violent crime differs .....the UK classes ALL violence and ALL sexual crimes as violence....the US has only five categories of crime it consider's violent crime and for instance....only a sexual crime where a forced rape occurred is considered violent....and the level of injury pertaining to aggravated assault needing for it to be classed as a violent crime in the US differs.
You can't compare violent rate statistics between countries as they all have their own idea of what constitutes a "violent crime" and thus what show's up in their individual statistics. But what you can do is look at the trend's for your own country over the long term to see what is going on.....I'm quite happy with a reduction in violent crime of 47% since 1995!
In the UK 45% of all violent crimes do not include any injury....I'm not sure what the percentage is for the US I would be genuinely interested.

Im pretty sure that Pro-gun advocates in the U.S would think twice if it was their son, daugther, mother or father who they found with the back of their head missing.

I think quite a few Americans Mis-Understand the rest of the world alot of the time.

Whilst you are busy with your fingers in your ears singing the national anthem to drown out any alternative thinking, the rest of the world just sympathise with the victims and their families.

Why wouldnt a country want to try everything possible to help reduce gun crime?

The UK has a lot of issues, but we follow the lead of other countries who show that what they do works. Case in point the new governor of the bank of England was appointed from the the bank of Canada. He steered them through a worldwide recession and dealt with it a hell of alot better than anyone in the UK did.

Maybe when Americans stop thinking that Non Americans are "sticking their noses in" they can take advice without fear of losing face. Other people do not have to read your constitution to know that increased gun ownership= higher rate of gun crime. Its just...rantionilty.

I agree that the Sandy Hook incident would have happened either way, I dont think Someone who is willing to kill children would be bothered about owning a gun illegally.

However, non-premeditated murders are on the rise (as they are in the UK) and we have a very bad knife crime problem over here.

If a Foreign politician has any way of helping us reduce the risk of getting stabbed, I am sure we would welcome it with open arms. However you gys are of the thought process that, well as long as I have a gun, then Im ok.

Im afraid not.

To all you remaining rational Americans

Originally posted by citizenx1

Originally posted by Underworlds
It is amazing how gun control advocates in foreign nations such as the U.K. beleive they have the solution for America's problems as they relate to gun crime and violence here. After relinquishing their own firearms in a futile attempt to end gun violence in the U.K., news reports cite statistics that gun crime in England and Wales "soared by 35% last year".

Link: Gun Crime Soars in England Where Guns Are Banned

That news article is dated only a week ago! "Handguns have been used in 46% more offences". How is this possible in a country where guns are outlawed?

Could it be that in outlawing firearms in the U.K. the law-abiding citizen surrendered their means of defense, the criminal element saw their weakness, and there was now little if anything that anyone could do to prevent these crimes from happening?

There are quite a few ATS members from the U.K. spouting off at the mouth as to how great things will be in the United States if we were to ban firearms here... if we were to abolish the Second Amendment rights which we all hold as dear to us as we do the very right to live. Maybe it would be prudent if these friends from the U.K. cleaned up their own back yards first before telling us Americans how we should live our lives.

Speaking as a Brit, its none of our business.

These people have their personal views but they have no right to try and influence the internal politics of a sovereign nation - just as we have had no right to interfere around the world in the last few years.

Thank you for that response. Now if we Americans could get our government to but out of other countries maybe we could get our problems sorted out at home. Then we could all go back to living a happy life worldwide.

Originally posted by infolurker

# sure, per capita no. But any-way, you are more likely not to get shot so that is really all that matters.... (spine, cough)
www.nationmaster.com...

edit on 22-12-2012 by infolurker because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-12-2012 by infolurker because: (no reason given)

The source used for those figures ( which it call's recent???) are from 2002....which I have already stated is the year in which major changes in reporting and recording crime was implemented in the UK so it had an effect of "boosting" the figure's for the crime rate for that year....which is well known and accepted.

The point IS....violent crime has reduced significantly in the UK since 95 and is now remains pretty much static.......so our violent crime statistics can't be used as an example of a society gone wrong after banning handgun's.
This as been my whole point since the beginning of this thread.....America has to make up it's own mind up about it's gun culture and what if anything it need's to do next....but please don't use us in the UK to further the cause of any debates ....that is just folly!

reply to post by Logos23


Yes, I did take the time to check out the link that you provided, and thank you for sharing it with me. I appreciate your candor in stating your position on the issues, both in regards to guns and in regards to people (such as myself) responding directly to members from the U.K.

First, let me clarify one thing that I see in your response to which I disagree. You state "we don't live with the same fear's you do". It is not "fear" that drives persons such as myself to cling tightly to our guns and our rights. I sincerely don't recall ever feeling a fear that would cause me to do any thing of this nature. What causes folks such as myself to cling so tightly is our right to live in the face of otherwise certain death, should that threat ever present itself to us. It is about "rights", and not much more.

I have never seen discussions started in these forums with OPs insisting or strongly recommending that the U.K. change its laws to allow people there to carry guns. Maybe I've just been looking in all the wrong places.

For 230 years, or so, courageous American men and women have sworn their allegiance to our Constitution, to defend it against all enemies both foreign and domestic. We don't swear allegiance to any king, queen, president or dictator, or to any other person. We swear it to our founding laws. And in that span of time, hundreds of thousands of men and women have been wounded and killed in battle honoring the oaths that they swore. The killed and died for the ideals of our forefathers which, in turn, have made America one of the greatest nations to ever rise amongst nations.

For any person to even suggest undoing the rights and liberties secured by our Bill of Rights is to threaten the very fabric of our nation's greatness. To do so is to say to the families of those that died that those deaths were without merit - that the ideals that they fought to defend are no longer worthy to defend and that their deaths were meaningless after all.

I read in another discussion earlier today - one started by a person claiming to be a Brit - that Americans don't need our guns anymore because "the Brits aren't coming!" We are ridiculed for keeping to our guns... I can only wonder why the Brits (or some other nation) aren't invading our soil when more than half of us are armed to the teeth.

reply to post by Kryties


because its the PEOPLE not the GOVERNMENTS that are doing the meddling.

the audacity.

or is that ignorance?

Originally posted by Kryties
That's rich coming from an American whose country practically invented the modern day method of sticking their nose into others business.

Aussie here....precisely what "plight" am I currently being afflicted with? I am sitting here in the sunshine with a nice cup of coffee not worrying that some nutter went to the shops and bought a gun and could possibly appear around the corner to blow my brains out. I do not fear this in my country, no matter how much you wish I did just to prove your point.

Somehow or another, I knew that this would eventually come up. I'm not going to argue the point with you. As a matter of fact, I'm going to agree with you 100%. The government of America does stick its nose into other nation's business when it would be best taking care of its own. If someone has a beef with the American government, be my guest and let them know how you feel. Bear in mind, though, that our government does not necessarily represent the wills of the people that it is supposed to represent. As far as the gun rights issue is concerned... gun rights, as they are set forth in the Second Amendment, are not for our nosy, busy-bodied government. The Second Amendment is for the people.

As for that "plight" that I mentioned... well, there are more than enough news reports and government provided statistics to indicate that gun violence and gun-related crimes have escalated in countries where the citizens gave up their rights to keep and bear arms. Maybe you don't see it. Maybe you're just turning a blind eye to it and pretending that it doesn't exist. Still, the statistics are there to demonstrate factually that gun crimes escalate when law-abiding citizens surrender their arms.

reply to post by paraphi


You are absolutely correct... mental health care in America is horrendous and something most definitely does need to be done to rectify this problem. Mental health care facilities are continuously being closed in America and the patients released back into the general population. Psychiatrists are more interested in prescribing another costly drug to keep them "sedated" or "balanced" instead of actually treating the patients. The result... we have mentally incapable people in America gaining access to firearms that they would not be able to access if they had only been kept in care facilities instead of released into the population.

It's sad, but true, and something needs to be done to correct this. Unfortunately, it is a never ending battle dealing with the liberal minded folks amongst us who insist that keeping mentally ill people locked in mental care facilities is inhumane... that mentally ill people should not be locked away from society, even though their mental illnesses sometimes result in violent episodes.

I am going to relate my post to an episode of 'Family Guy'.

The episode begins on new years eve 1999 with the y2k scare. Peter locks his family away in the family basement effectively saving them from nuclear Armageddon. The family then emerges from the basement in search of food and later establish a colony where peter becomes mayor. Peter then, after assigning jobs to the citizens of new Quahog, uses the colonies metal to build guns instead of irrigation equipment thus enraging the colonies populace. the colony evicts the Griffin family. but before they leave, baby Stewie (who had mutated due to exposure to toxic waste) laid eggs in the family house, the eggs then hatched and attacked the denizens of new Quahog while they were burning Peter's guns in a bonfire. Futilely the citizens clamber for the firearms they so desperately need to defend themselves. one character asks: you remember the other day when you asked me the definition of irony? a stewie monster then clings to his face and the man falls to the ground.

Some may find my comparison asinine but I believe it is spot on.

it may not be today, it may not be tomorrow or ten years from now.

But one day, mark my words, any and all that have relinquished their freedom to bear a personal self defense firearm, semi-auto or otherwise, will indeed regret it. As the proverbial Stewie monsters drag us to the ground. Because trust me, when we need to use them (the firearms) our enemies will not be wielding clubs and crossbows friends, they will be using extremely high tech kit.

reply to post by cjttatu


Great post and I appreciate your respect in the manner. Beasties come in all shapes and sizes. Some have fur coats, and others barely have hair on their chins. Some walk on all fours while others walk upright. Regardless of the species of beast, if it threatens your life or the lives of your loves ones then you have every right to put it down so that you may continue to live.

Originally posted by phishfriar47
reply to post by Biigs

 

I get what you are saying about the types we should be allowed to possess, but as the Constitution was written, you can plainly and clearly see that our 2nd amendment right was put there for more than one reason. Self defense is one, and I agree you shouldnt need more than a regular rifle or decent pistol to ward off 1 or 2 attackers similarly equipped, however theres a little part in the same governing documents of our country that states it our right and our duty to overthrow a corrupt government if need be, and I think thats where our automatic rifles come into play. At least we are able to stay on par with what the best military's in the world are using in the field, so if it came to an armed revolution we would have some sort of chance instead of going into an AR fight with just a shotgun.

Of course we wouldnt stand a chance against tanks and drones and super sonic air craft, etc

That pretty much sums it all up. I only have one question... why does it sound better coming from you than it does coming from me? hmmm... Guess I've gotta work on my communications skills a little more.

reply to post by Underworlds


When I first starting reading the various discussion's on whether gun's should be banned in America in light of recent event's I was of the mind that they should indeed be so. Personally I've never really understood the whole gun culture in the US....and when I started seeing discussion's on whether teacher's should be able to be armed to protect the children in their care in school it kinda shocked me to be honest! I can't genuinely even begin to imagine living in a society where that would even need to be discussed let alone be a consideration......because that is as far away from my reality as it can get!

I have wanted to try and understand America's gun culture for a long time but it's always very hard to gain real and logical information that isn't based on emotion and pride. But I feel the last few day's I have been able to weed out some intelligent and logical conversation's.
My personal opinion is that a ban isn't a working solution for the US, even if it was ideal......so no I don't believe there should be a ban.

But as i keep saying.....it's unfair to drag the UK into any argument and use us as a bad example.....that is the only thing I take offence to. After the ban on handgun's our violent crime continued on a downward trend that started 2 year's prior to the ban...banning gun's did NOT increase crime in the UK.
And incidentally the average person in the UK has better odd's of winning a couple of million quid on the lottery than being shot dead.

I do appreciate any intelligent and logical debate ....despite what anyone may think I am here to learn as much as to state my own cases and the fact that I have changed my mind on the subject from when I first started out show's that I AM open to the responses of others like "you" as you put it.

Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by Logos23

 

Methinks the OP merely wanted a thread where he could spout off his opinion and crush the dissenters. He ain't getting it

Methinks youthinks you know something about the OP when, in fact, you know little if anything at all about me, my intentions, or what I am or am not "getting".

Fact of the matter is that you and folks such as yourselves aren't getting it. Non-Americans are trying to tell us Americans what we should and shouldn't be doing with regards to our gun ownership rights. Fact is, not a single one of you are qualified to even suggest to us what our rights should and should not be.

Here's what happened in your peaceful country of Australia after your law-abiding citizens gave up their guns...



In this next video, it is made clear that gun crimes increased significantly in Washington D.C. when guns were outlawed there, and that gun crimes decreased significantly when guns were allowed to be carried...

reply to post by Logos23


That has got to be one of the nicest and most well written responses I have ever received from someone who did not agree with my posts. Thank you.

I only have one question, at this point... Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Australia a part of the U.K.?

If it is, then why was the news reporting staggering increases in gun-related crimes in Australia following the ban on guns? (see the video I posted above)

reply to post by Underworlds

Hey less of the foreign just check your city and towns names and the language you speak sir
and like it or not most are descendants of us in the good ole uk remember that sir and chill out...

Peace

Denver22