To U.K. Members Suggesting A U.S. Repeal Of The Second Amendment

It is amazing how gun control advocates in foreign nations such as the U.K. beleive they have the solution for America's problems as they relate to gun crime and violence here. After relinquishing their own firearms in a futile attempt to end gun violence in the U.K., news reports cite statistics that gun crime in England and Wales "soared by 35% last year".

Link: Gun Crime Soars in England Where Guns Are Banned

That news article is dated only a week ago! "Handguns have been used in 46% more offences". How is this possible in a country where guns are outlawed?

Could it be that in outlawing firearms in the U.K. the law-abiding citizen surrendered their means of defense, the criminal element saw their weakness, and there was now little if anything that anyone could do to prevent these crimes from happening?

There are quite a few ATS members from the U.K. spouting off at the mouth as to how great things will be in the United States if we were to ban firearms here... if we were to abolish the Second Amendment rights which we all hold as dear to us as we do the very right to live. Maybe it would be prudent if these friends from the U.K. cleaned up their own back yards first before telling us Americans how we should live our lives.

Wow. No one has said this before in one of the countless other threads about guns.

Originally posted by khimbar
Wow. No one has said this before in one of the countless other threads about guns.

So? There are 288,694 threads alone on 2012.

What is the problem?

Originally posted by khimbar
Wow. No one has said this before in one of the countless other threads about guns.

I'm certain that this has been said before, many times and in many different ways... and that it has almost always reached the same ears (or eyes, as the case may be) over and over again. Still, the same people continue to rant from across the water about how we Americans should conduct our lives, even though their lifestyles and the crime that dictates those lifestyles grow worse and worse with the passing of the days.

As long as our friends from places such as the U.K. continue to hammer us with insistance that we abolish our Second Amendment rights, we should continue to remind them as to their own plight after they gave up their guns.

Maybe... just maybe, one day they will open their eyes and realize that gun crimes cannot be averted by the act of taking guns from the law-abiding people of a nation. Only crime will follow.

I am from the UK and and i think we SHOULD be allowed to own a/few guns for home defense.

The only issue i have is the TYPES of guns allowed and the number of rounds for them.

Assault weapons (especially ones that can be converted to full auto with hardly any effort or knowledge) with mag after mag loaded and ready is more than any man, woman or child should need to protect their home from would be attackers or thieves.

U.S.A has a LONG history with firearms where as the E.U. went through all stages of weapons before ending up with firearms, we were never so obsessed in the first place and nearly all firearms were used primary for pest control and hunting rather than home defense. Why that should matter im not exactly certain, but we feel less entitled since there was never a direct law to enable us to own them from the start.

This is just one view, i know you are talking about the UK people who are utterly against all fire arms of every type, i just thought id say that there is a strong contingent for all sides, there are a lot of hippy's (in the nicest sense) on ATS so as an effect of that, a lot of people who think every solution can be solved with a hug.

Biigs

QUICK EDIT: we CAN own shotguns for pest control on farms or sport shooting but they are HEAVILY regulated by the police with many restrictions (including mental heath checks etc), and the fact is we have less gun crime than any state in the USA.

Think about this for a minute. In order for a NWO to come about, several things must change in the US. We would have to basically eliminate the Constitution and all the States. There is no denying that the Obama admin has attacked serval of our Admendments already (indef detention, felony for protesting if secret service is present, etc.). What about the States? The only way to effectively limit them into submission would be to cripple their economy, force them to layoff their police, and for the military to reestablish order. Obviously, this will take years to happen (I'm guessing by 2020).

If we ban guns, we are not only taking away our rights, we will be weakening our economy. Every manufacturer, distributor, service rep, shooting range, etc. will feel the impact. How many jobs will be lost? How much additional money will be out of our economy? How big of an impact to do think that will have on an already crippled economy?

Originally posted by Underworlds
It is amazing how gun control advocates in foreign nations such as the U.K. beleive they have the solution for America's problems as they relate to gun crime and violence here. After relinquishing their own firearms in a futile attempt to end gun violence in the U.K., news reports cite statistics that gun crime in England and Wales "soared by 35% last year".

Link: Gun Crime Soars in England Where Guns Are Banned

That news article is dated only a week ago! "Handguns have been used in 46% more offences". How is this possible in a country where guns are outlawed?

Could it be that in outlawing firearms in the U.K. the law-abiding citizen surrendered their means of defense, the criminal element saw their weakness, and there was now little if anything that anyone could do to prevent these crimes from happening?

There are quite a few ATS members from the U.K. spouting off at the mouth as to how great things will be in the United States if we were to ban firearms here... if we were to abolish the Second Amendment rights which we all hold as dear to us as we do the very right to live. Maybe it would be prudent if these friends from the U.K. cleaned up their own back yards first before telling us Americans how we should live our lives.

Speaking as a Brit, its none of our business.

These people have their personal views but they have no right to try and influence the internal politics of a sovereign nation - just as we have had no right to interfere around the world in the last few years.

Originally posted by Underworlds
I'm certain that this has been said before, many times and in many different ways... and that it has almost always reached the same ears (or eyes, as the case may be) over and over again. Still, the same people continue to rant from across the water about how we Americans should conduct our lives, even though their lifestyles and the crime that dictates those lifestyles grow worse and worse with the passing of the days.

So you thought the best thing to do was to give them another thread to say the same thing in?

reply to post by khimbar

It needs to be repeated....often.

I don't think Piers Morgan is doing a very good job maintaining the special relationship.

But please keep him.

reply to post by Underworlds


You can't get away from the fact that UK gun murders are infinitesimal compared with the US. Last year 42 ( a 20 year low ) :-

www.independent.co.uk...

That would have been mainly criminal on criminal and with such low figures 3 or 4 murders more or less in a year can really skew the percentage points.

I think it is beyond argument that low numbers of guns and difficulty (or impossibility for certain types ) of obtaining them helps keeps numbers down .

However, we have never really had a gun problem to begin with. The idea that anyone needs guns to defend their home or fight a tyrannical government is just something I don't recognise here.

With an international forum like this you are bound to get views from outside your country and from my perspective the idea, as put forward by the NRA and widely supported on here, that guns, guns and more guns will make things safer just seems barmy.

Whether the 2nd Amendment is repealed is a matter for US voters but it seems to be causing more trouble than it is worth. It was written over 200 years ago when it was feared that a newly won independence could be threatened and that well regulated militias could help prevent that. I don't see the writers encouraging gun ownership in order to resist their own legislation.

It seems to me that the idea of resisting government with guns is simply spurious. The Patriot Act contains elements that have been found unconstitutional by courts and militias ( the supposed essence of the 2nd Amendment ) have been suppressed but no-one has lifted a finger.

reply to post by Underworlds

Originally posted by Underworlds
After relinquishing their own firearms in a futile attempt to end gun violence in the U.K., news reports cite statistics that gun crime in England and Wales "soared by 35% last year".

Link: Gun Crime Soars in England Where Guns Are Banned

That news article is dated only a week ago! "Handguns have been used in 46% more offences". How is this possible in a country where guns are outlawed?

Please go back and look at your source.....your original source may have been dated a week ago but the figure's quoted weren't! The clue was where it said "new data from the UK" they crossed out the "new" ...infact if you click on the link it used for it's information it direct's you to an article in a crappy UK tabloid that is dated 2003! And it's a piece of spin seems as there is just a tiny mention of the fact that new police recording procedures took effect from 2002/2003 and so skewed the figures for that year.

If you would like to see official crime statistics for the UK and an explanation of them including statistics for violent crime for the period 1981 - 2011 from the ORIGINAL source and not just from tabloids miss representing the trend's then feel free to take a look. It also show's trend's for firearm related crime between 2001/2002 - 2010/2011

Home Office Statistical Bulletin / Crime in England and Wales

Despite the common misconception that that violent crime in England and Wales as risen dramatically since the ban on handguns in 1997...in actual fact overall violent crime as reduced since it's peak in 1995 by 47% .

I don't personally believe that a ban on gun's will solve any of America's problems right now...but I AM getting a tad sick of America holding up the UK as an example as to why you shouldn't ban them....quoting crappy tabloid's and spin rather than hard fact's.Make your own mind up but don't use us as an excuse to keep them.
America obviously have a problem right now and if people do want, or don't want to at least admit that and address it in some way that is your prerogative....but please don't use England and Wales as an example of a society gone wrong after banning handgun's......because that quite simply is nothing but miss representation!

Every country has illegal guns this is a fact, they are smuggled the same way drugs are. However in the UK most gun crime is against other criminals with guns, gang warfare etc.

The average nutter cant get one easily AT ALL, in fact even if you know some criminals heavily involved in all sorts of activity's, you still wont be able to get one and even then if you do you wont be able to get an endless amount of ammo!.

Or maybe you can get firearms easily, everything i have said is untrue and we just have less mentally unstable people capable of committing vicious and uncalled for shootings and massacre style crimes.

I started this thread because I stumbled upon another ATS discussion earlier today where some guy from the U.K. spouted off that America needs to do away with our Second Amendment. Others seemingly from the U.K. were joining in on the discussion, attacking our American rights as if they had the right to do so.

Here's the thing about it, my dear friends from across the water... America and the U.K. are two entirely different lands with entirely different peoples, cultures and opinions on matters such as guns. If you guys like the idea of not being adequately armed for the purpose of defending yourselves or your loved ones against attack, that is strictly your business. Many of us here in America believe that we have a duty and a right to defend our lives, the lives of those that we love and care for, and the birthrights and heritage that is ours. If someone makes attempt to harm those that we love, and if we believe that those attempts may be severe or life threatening, then absolutely nobody has the right or authority to tell us that we cannot use deadly force in their defence.

Sure, it may never happen that someone would threaten the lives of those around us, but the possibility still exists that it could happen. Personally, I have used my firearm in multiple occassions to defend others against armed assailants, and to defend myself. Had I not been properly armed, I don't doubt for a moment that myself and others would be dead.

But, that's okay. If you guys would rather take your chances in the jungle, unarmed and with predatory animals all around you just waiting to pounce, go right ahead. I assure you that we on this side of the water will respect your choice to go unarmed. Just try to show a bit of respect from your side, as well, and stop trying to impose your views upon us by insisting that we need to do away with our God-given rights to be armed for our defenses.

i]reply to post by Underworlds


I understand your frustration's behind making the OP....all this tit for tat between people from the UK and US is getting silly from both end's. You quite simply cannot compare them......we didn't have much of a gun culture before the handgun ban...and we still don't. And our societies are totally different. I understand your concern about being able to defend your family by use of firearms if needed.....but here in the UK we don't have that fear and we don't NEED gun's. It work's for us. I think that's why people from the UK find it so hard to grasp...because we don't live with the same fear's you do.

The only issue I had with you was as i stated earlier... that you were using the UK as an example of society gone wrong after a ban on handgun's....which simply isn't true. If you've managed to look at that link i posted I hope at least you have a better idea of fact's. But the fact is that even lot's of people who live in the UK believe all the spin about the supposed massive increase in violent crime here, so I don't blame you for entertaining that idea. But that's why it's always best to do your own research. No matter what side of the pond we live on we are fed crap from the media.

The ban on handguns wasn't a result of trying to reduce gun crime as such or violent crime....it was in direct response to the Dunblane massacre in 96 which involved a full class of 5/6 year old's in school. The ban was a result of a public outcry asking for the ban.....they weren't quite taken away from us in the way in which it is mostly portrayed.

As for needing protection from criminal's who own gun's illegally...as someone else as pointed out most of the gun crime in the UK is a result of criminal's v criminal's relating to thing's like gang warfare and trade in illegal drug's etc.

As i mentioned, I don't think a ban on gun's in America will solve your problem... and I don't pretend to know what will. But I do wish that certain groups in America would stop painting the UK in a bad light very unfairly and in an unsubstantiated way to help further their own argument in the gun debate.....that is my only real issue!

Originally posted by Underworlds
Still, the same people continue to rant from across the water about how we Americans should conduct our lives, even though their lifestyles and the crime that dictates those lifestyles grow worse and worse with the passing of the days.

That's rich coming from an American whose country practically invented the modern day method of sticking their nose into others business.

As long as our friends from places such as the U.K. continue to hammer us with insistance that we abolish our Second Amendment rights, we should continue to remind them as to their own plight after they gave up their guns.

Aussie here....precisely what "plight" am I currently being afflicted with? I am sitting here in the sunshine with a nice cup of coffee not worrying that some nutter went to the shops and bought a gun and could possibly appear around the corner to blow my brains out. I do not fear this in my country, no matter how much you wish I did just to prove your point.

Maybe... just maybe, one day they will open their eyes and realize

My eyes are wide open mate, and I ain't seeing any gun toting nut jobs pointing guns at me.....I wonder why that is?

Originally posted by Underworlds
As long as our friends from places such as the U.K. continue to hammer us with insistance that we abolish our Second Amendment rights, we should continue to remind them as to their own plight after they gave up their guns.

I don’t think the UK is “hammering on”.

We in the UK enjoy a comparatively gun-free life, where a tiny proportion of crime is firearms related and this is evidenced in homicide statistics. Our US cousins suffer high rates of mayhem and death because of guns, not to mention the c.20 K people accidentally shot each year, many of whom are kids.

Fact is that we must accept the US is a gun culture. What the US is pretty crap at is managing this culture – for example mental health care in the US is third world. If mental health care was a bit more advanced how many of these regular mass killings could have been avoided? Perhaps the debate should move on to things which US politicians can have an impact on, because guns are part of the US.

Regards

I've seen a few of these threads and figured i'd finally throw in my 2 cents/pennies
yup i'm from the uk and i've spoken to a few people in the U.S.(not on here) about this.
Where in the UK guns are a bad idea,mainly because we are seriously over populated
and on a small island.

I actually think because of the vast difference between both countries,america should
ignore anyone else and decide for themselves,in back country areas you got some
beasties,that to be honest i wouldn't wanna face without a bigass gun if i have a choice.


ive been to a few countries that are mainly farm countries and they've still got guns to
protect their livestock,mainly back country greece and turkey..

i truly believe if your living is based on raising cattle or whatever and that can be
threatened by beasties then why shouldn't you be able to protect it,without
possible danger to yourself.....it's big,nasty and angry......SHOOT IT

Also if they wanna use them in the city hey population control

Gotta be honest, same as china and russia, I couldnt care less about what people in the UK want to say about american laws.

Want a say in our laws? Move here. otherwise, it is not your issue.

reply to post by cjttatu


You can shoot those beasties just as easy with bolt action hunting rifles mate. Nobody is saying that gun control means banning guns, it means taking a common sense approach to them that doesn't allow a whackjob to walk into his local shop and buy an assault rifle.