December 21st, 2012 11:11am GMT - Snapshot from Earth and Sun.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

False.

Prove it.

reply to post by Phage


I didn't mention their knowledge of the earth itself. More so, the things they saw when they looked up. You can't discredit their knowledge of the skies based on the fact that EVERYONE used to believe the earth was flat. Would you discredit humanity's amazing discoveries in the past few hundred years if the earth turned out to be square? I'm sure you wouldn't.

What they saw remained what they saw. Whether the believed the earth was flat, round or any shape.

reply to post by MrConspiracy

You can't discredit their knowledge of the skies based on the fact that EVERYONE used to believe the earth was flat.

The ancient Greeks knew the Earth is round.

The Maya also thought the sky was a snake.

I don't discredit their knowledge of the sky. I said they were very good observers of the sky. That doesn't mean they knew how it worked. It doesn't mean they knew the Earth is a sphere like the other planets. It doesn't mean they knew that Earth and the planets rotate. It doesn't mean they knew that the Earth and planets revolve around the Sun. It doesn't mean they were aware of precession.

Originally posted by Phage

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

False.

Prove it.

See my edit for the description re: Full Moon - Sun relationship for the Equinoxes.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I see you edited your post.

Furthermore, at midsummer (equinox) in the northern hemisphere the sun sets north of west whereas the full moon sets south of west, but in an equidistant manner (relative to due west). At midwinter the situation is reversed, with the sun setting south of west and the full moon setting north of west.

The equinox is in spring. Yes, the full Moon rises and sets opposite the Sun. That is why it is full. There is nothing mysterious about it. However, since the Moon's orbit is not aligned with ecliptic, it sometimes (rarely) occurs at the same (but opposite) azimuth. Sound familiar?

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by kobewan69

 

That is simply bollocks, in 3 dimmensions every two objects can align at any point or time.

Yes, but to see the Sun align with anything from our point of view on Earth, the Earth must be a third object. Any two objects are always "aligned".

The center of the galaxy (Sagittarius *A, the supermassive black hole) does not lie on the ecliptic. It will never align with the Sun from our point of view, just as Sirius or Vega or any other star which is not on the ecliptic will not.

edit on 12/16/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

you are correct: from our point of view a line will never exist that passes from earth to Sol to GC or Sirius.

but what about this?

say we look down on our galaxy and put the GC in the center.
we're out on the edge (ish) right? and off angle(from the galactic plane: this makes evrything very confusing , yes?)
so. lets ignore angles relative to the galactic plane and consider the plane to be a sheet and look at positions on the sheet. again looking down. what we would see in bulk is everything rotating around the GC, right?
in bulk.
but then everything rotates around something else before it roates around the GC, right? like us around Sol and then only eventually around the GC. so if we pictered a path it would be us spinning in a circle around Sol while Sol, more slowly spin around the GC (again ignoring earths/Sols orbital plane angle).
and if we called that a clock, whether or not the earth,sun and Gc line up, in *plane*, there IS a point at which < from this viewpoint) earth and sun and GC align. every year the GC returns to the same(ish) ppsition in the sky at solstice and every many years that position changes: this due to pression, remeber? so. there is a cycle of return from the overhead perspective.

now add to that, the possible fact that Sol in turn orbits Sirius. So now we have a second layer clock, right?
again from the overhead, perpendicular to GC plane perspective.
What if we orbit Sirius as the data implies?
wouldn't the be a point when earth, sol, sirius, and gc align?
a clock within a clock.

can u point to data that shows us where we are from that perspective?
can you show us where we are along that clock?

i'm looking but have yet to find the data represtened that way.

reply to post by galactix

What if we orbit Sirius as the data implies?

No data implies that. We do not orbit Sirius.

wouldn't the be a point when earth, sol, sirius, and gc align?

No. Sirius is not on the ecliptic. It will never align with the Sun from our point of view.

reply to post by Phage

So was the beginning and end date of their calendar just arbitrary? What if anything do you think it signifies?

Originally posted by Phage
However, since the Moon's orbit is not aligned with ecliptic, it sometimes (rarely) occurs at the same (but opposite) azimuth. Sound familiar?

I see you edited.

I was given to believe that, every year, it occurs at the same (but opposite) azimuth at midsummer and midwinter. Isn't that right?

Dear BrokenAngelWings33,

Can you create a few more pics for us along the lines described in the following post, please?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I am going to do some more pictures for you, they will all be when the Sun is on the Galactic plane, which is 2 times a year from our perspective on Earth.

Thank you very much!

I was wondering., would it be possible to do one from Earth through Sirius, just to check (nothing but curiosity based on all the conflicting reports), and if your software allows it, from Sirius to our sun.

Another interesting one, would be from the moon through earth at the moment of solstice, just to see what the Moon Earth Sun relationship is doing from the Moon-Earth's perspective and to which constellation it points at, through it's direct line to Earth. There was another such significant "pointing" by the moon at another moment of time long ago, but that's another thread.

There's some speculation that Sirius A might be a companion star to other local stars, including our sun, and the data's still out on that btw regardless of what some of the astronomers here are saying (while noting however that there is no and can be no such relationship with the star Alcyone, an internet myth cooked up by the "new agers" (I'm not that kind of "new age").

And from the research I've done, the moon is always highly integral - so it would be VERY interesting to see what it's pointing towards and in particular which constellation, at the moment of the solstice, even if only as a point of great curiosity at least for moi.

Thanks so much for your help BrokenAngelWings33. It's like this is "our" thread in a way because without the pics it didn't happen or isn't soon to happen, and no, nothing's going to like HAPPEN happen, no one's saying that! (Although we never know what we might run into or through at any point in our travels through the galaxy).

But cycles and evolutionary processes are very very much of interest to me, big time and this stuff is just so fascinating. Thanks again for all your help dear, we really appreciate it, it's wonderful.

Best Regards,

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan

What do January and December signify?
The Mayan calendar doesn't end any more than ours does. At the "end" of the current long count another begins just as at the end of December there is another January.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I was given to believe that, every year, it occurs at the same (but opposite) azimuth at midsummer and midwinter. Isn't that right?

You know how to check it, right?

reply to post by Phage


To observe - Notice or perceive (something) and register it as being significant.

I'm sure you're aware of the Dresden Codex which "contains astronomical tables of great accuracy."

Now i understand you're statement about their misconceptions of earth as flat and sky as a snake...
However the "snake is often seen as the embodiment of the sky itself"

Embodiment - The representation or expression of something in such a form.

They didn't believe the sky was actually a snake.

You can mention how they believed the earth was flat. But you can't take away the fact that they knew the skies.

Originally posted by galactix

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by kobewan69

 

That is simply bollocks, in 3 dimmensions every two objects can align at any point or time.

Yes, but to see the Sun align with anything from our point of view on Earth, the Earth must be a third object. Any two objects are always "aligned".

The center of the galaxy (Sagittarius *A, the supermassive black hole) does not lie on the ecliptic. It will never align with the Sun from our point of view, just as Sirius or Vega or any other star which is not on the ecliptic will not.

edit on 12/16/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

you are correct: from our point of view a line will never exist that passes from earth to Sol to GC or Sirius.

but what about this?

say we look down on our galaxy and put the GC in the center.
we're out on the edge (ish) right? and off angle(from the galactic plane: this makes evrything very confusing , yes?)
so. lets ignore angles relative to the galactic plane and consider the plane to be a sheet and look at positions on the sheet. again looking down. what we would see in bulk is everything rotating around the GC, right?
in bulk.
but then everything rotates around something else before it roates around the GC, right? like us around Sol and then only eventually around the GC. so if we pictered a path it would be us spinning in a circle around Sol while Sol, more slowly spin around the GC (again ignoring earths/Sols orbital plane angle).
and if we called that a clock, whether or not the earth,sun and Gc line up, in *plane*, there IS a point at which < from this viewpoint) earth and sun and GC align. every year the GC returns to the same(ish) ppsition in the sky at solstice and every many years that position changes: this due to pression, remeber? so. there is a cycle of return from the overhead perspective.

now add to that, the possible fact that Sol in turn orbits Sirius. So now we have a second layer clock, right?
again from the overhead, perpendicular to GC plane perspective.
What if we orbit Sirius as the data implies?
wouldn't the be a point when earth, sol, sirius, and gc align?
a clock within a clock.

can u point to data that shows us where we are from that perspective?
can you show us where we are along that clock?

i'm looking but have yet to find the data represtened that way.

picturing this a little more in my mind.

viewed from above, and perpendicular to the GC orbital plane, the path of the earth is an elipse. so if we divide the 'circle' into equal angular sections, each 'cord' would be a different length, tho symmetrical. and that the velocity (vs time) along that path would not be constant.

non linear time.

i wonder what the inclination of our orbit around the Dog star is....?

reply to post by MrConspiracy

You can mention how they believed the earth was flat. But you can't take away the fact that they knew the skies.

For the third time, I say that they were very good observers of the sky.

reply to post by pikestaff


There will be more people committing suicide because the banking system lent them more than they can afford than by the December 21st event. There will be more kids committing suicide because of the bullying tactics in school than of this event. Some may see it as a time to commit suicide but they are wrong. It is the time to confront life and look to changing all the things that are wrong. It is a new beginning not the end that I look forward to. If even a thousand people learn what is really important in life from this date in history it will be a success. It is about opening ones eyes, not closing them for good. Wake up everyone, life can be enjoyable no matter how poor you are. Look at the little kids in Africa that are sick from malnutrition and have a smile on their face. We can be happy with little if we want. Only the people obsessed with money need to be rich to be happy. Give a kid a box to play with and see how much fun they have with it. What is wrong with us can easily be fixed, we need to look away from our capitalistic programming.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by galactix

 

What if we orbit Sirius as the data implies?

No data implies that. We do not orbit Sirius.

wouldn't the be a point when earth, sol, sirius, and gc align?

No. Sirius is not on the ecliptic. It will never align with the Sun from our point of view.

so then why does Sirius remain still in the skies?

u are not looking at it from the perspective i suggested. from the overhead, there IS an alignment.
do i have to draw you a picture?

lift your mind off the earth for a moment.

reply to post by galactix

so then why does Sirius remain still in the skies?

It doesn't.

Proper motions mas/yr [error ellipse]: -546.01 -1223.07 [1.33 1.24 0]

simbad.u-strasbg.fr...

reply to post by galactix


Found this, for whatever it's worth.

does our sun revolve around sirius? you tell me

The diameter of the Earth is one-millionth that of the Solar System; but the diameter of the Solar System is only perhaps one forty­ millionth that of the Milky Way. When in our own system we find such relationships, it is not between sun and planets, but between sun and satellites of planets. That is to say, by analogy of scale and mass, we should expect the Solar System to be revolving about some greater entity, which in its turn was revolving about the centre of the Milky Way; just as the Moon revolves about the Earth, which in turn revolves about the Sun. What and where is this ‘sun’ of our Sun? Several attempts have been made to discern a ‘local’ system within the Milky Way, particularly by Charlier who in 1916 seemed to have established such a group 2000 light-years across and with its centre several hundred light-years away in the direction of Argo. If we study our immediate surroundings in the galaxy, we find an interesting gradation of stars, two of which are suggestive from this point of view.

For the most brilliant object in the heavens, after those within the Solar System itself, is of course the double star Sirius. This consists of an immense radiant sun, 26 times more brilliant than our own, which circles in a fifty year period with a white dwarf as big as Jupiter and 5,000 times denser than lead. The mass of the light star being two and a half times that of our Sun, and that of the dark one equivalent to it, the influence upon the solar system of this starry pair, which lie at less than nine light-years remove, must certainly far exceed that of any other extra-solar body that we can think of. By physical distance as by radiance and mass a Sirian system would seem in some way to fill the excessive gap between the cosmoses of the Solar System and the Milky Way. Indeed, the distance from the Sun to Sirius, one million times the distance from the earth to the Sun, falls naturally into the scale of cosmic relationships mentioned, and provided nineteenth century astronomy with an excellent unit of celestial measurement, the siriometer, now unfortunately abandoned.

No astronomical data contradict the possibility that the Solar System circles about Sirius, in the course of the latter’s circuit of the Milky Way, as Kant believed. For such a circling would only noticeably alter the position in the heavens of Sirius itself and of two or three other near stars, and in a periodicity of some hundreds of thousands of years this could easily pass unnoticed. In fact, we have definite evidence to show that such is the case. As the ancient Egyptians observed, the apparent motion of Sirius, measured by its rising with the sun, is a little less than that of the apparent motion of all the other stars, which is recognised in the precession of the equinoxes. Whereas the general star mass rises twenty minutes later on a given day each year, Sirius rises only eleven minutes later. This corresponds to the difference in apparent motion between points outside a circle and the centre of the circle itself, when observed from a moving point on its circumference, just as, in a landscape seen from a moving car, far and near objects seem to run past each other.

From such an observation we have good reason to believe that our Sun does circle about Sirius. And if we suppose the generally accepted figure of 20 km/s for the sun’s motion through space to be correct (NAM: I thought it was 70,000km/s?), then this circling would require 800,000 years. In other words, our Sun would make some 250 revolutions about its greater sun for every full circuit of the Milky Way. Another very striking fact appears to confirm the idea of a local star system with Sirius as centre. If we take the great familiar stars within say forty light-years of the Sun, Sirius, Procyon, Altair, Fomalhaut, Pollux, Vega and so on, we find that all but two lie within 15° of the same plane. There is only one likely explanation of this: that all the near stars revolve about a common centre, and that this section is the ecliptic upon which all their orbits lie. Supposing Sirius to be the sun of these suns, then our Sun, curiously enough, appears to occupy a similar place in that system to that occupied by the earth in the solar one. And if this is so, then the Sirian system may be regarded as almost exactly a million times greater in diameter than the solar system, as the latter is a million times greater in diameter than the earth, and the earth a million times greater in diameter than an ordinary house.

niqnaq.wordpress.com...

reply to post by Phage


You claim they didn't know how what they observed "worked" but yet, i mention the Dresden Codex which seems to say maybe they did know how it worked.

I know you say they are observers, hence why i quoted what "Observe" means.

Please note, i respect your knowledge. And i'm not trying to be confrontational.