Americans, Isn't It Time You Relinquished Your Weapons.

Originally posted by cartesia
I live in australia.

Normal people do not have weapon access, generally. Ammo must be kept locked away from weapons for the few who own a license. (most licencees are farmowners). without a suitable hunting/pest property, its nigh on impossible to get a gun without joining a club and keeping the gun at said club...

All the police have guns,
All the organised criminals have guns
Psychos still get guns.

Not only are we powerless against people with guns, but we are also at the mercy of the authorities. The cops pull out their guns here and hands up is the only option you have, regardless of how fair a call was made. and of course there's always 2 cops to back each other up.

Is this what the OP is suggesting? I am not a gun owner. Have never owned a gun. I am a mother of 1 soon to be 2, and a wife of a Navy Corpsman. I can tell you now, I will at some point, I will own a gun. I will know how to use it, and it will be kept safely away from anyone else. I do believe they need to make stricter laws for acquiring a gun, However Banning them is the most ridiculous solution.

Its simple, banning them will only make it that much harder for normal/innocent people to acquire them for their own protection. Criminals, psychos, the "crazies", and even the normal will still have access to them but on a much more dangerous route. Causing violence to go up way more. Please explain how that is better? Remember "crack" is illegal, yet millions of people use it.

reply to post by korathin


I've never seen so much ignorance and apparent hatred aimed at the British people in one post ....fortunately you are not representative of the American people.
I like the American people very much...and I don't hold them accountable for any atrocities carried out by their own governments or forefathers.
Sure there are lots of things my country as done that I am not very proud of, especially during the British Empire day's....but please tell me why you think America is exempt from committing any crimes against humanity?...and why you obviously believe your country is a shining example that should be beheld?

Again.....I like the American people....I am not trying to infiltrate and stab anybody in the back...and certainly not murder or butcher you.....the word delusional comes to mind.

Stop with all the hate at people who have done feck all to you!....because that is what you were talking about when you say "the" British people.....people are not the governments or the elite but the average person on the streets...and if you seriously think that the average person on Britain's streets means the American people any harm, then again that word comes to mind.....delusional

reply to post by knowledgedesired


You make a very good point and often a popular point from 2nd amendment advocates. Although anything can be used as a weapon (e.g., bombs, fuel, viruses) banning guns is a great place to start.

reply to post by Logos23


After reading your post something occurred to me. Most of us have lost sight at what happened to those poor children and their teachers. Hell I haven't even giving my condolences, I feel disgusted.

Charlotte Bacon, 6

Daniel Barden, 7

Rachel Davino, 29

Olivia Engel, 6

Josephine Gay, 7

Ana Marquez-Greene, 6

Dylan Hockley, 6

Dawn Hochsprung, 47

Madeline Hsu, 6

Catherine Hubbard, 6

Victoria Soto, 27

Benjamin Wheeler, 6

Allison Wyatt, 6

Mary Sherlach, 56

Lauren Rousseau, 30

Jack Pinto, 6

Noah Pozner, 6

Caroline Previdi, 6

Jessica Rekos, 6

Avielle Richman, 6

Emilie Parker, 6

Anne Marie Murphy, 52

Grace McDonnell, 7

Jesse Lewis, 6

James Mattioli, 6

Chase Kowalski, 7

To you all; may you find eternal happiness, may you find the light, may you rest in peace.

My sincere regards to the family of the lost.

To a mod; perhaps it is time to bring this thread to a close, it's only becoming a tit for tat arguement.

ALS

reply to post by zachary21b


you gonna ban martial arts? you know the deadly ones? look man banning weapons from americans will be considered an act of war regardless of how anti gun people feel. this talk of banning weapons because shootings happen in places where guns arent allowed it's just the wrong direction to go in. if the people aren't armed we cannot defend ourselves. your country is just fine without them. our country is fine with ours and you guys are smart enough to arm yourselves and possibly to spot a false flag attack. this reminds me of timothy mcveigh being set up with all the proper tools to go do the oklahoma city bombings. fast and furious where they tried blaming the 2nd ammendment for drug cartels when obama supplied the arms, that's something recent. and that clown guy that shot up the movie theater, that guy reeks of mk ultra. but no, an armed person goes where it is illegal to be armed and kills unarmed people hence our guns must be taken away. oh no victims were armed again so lets ban guns and not arm them. dude you guys live in an age where you're supposed to be kind of crafty and see when the wool is being put over your eyes. since we share the atlantic ocean together, i urge you guys to get guns legalized.

reply to post by ALOSTSOUL


Well like you said, your not an American and you don't really understand our freedoms here in the greatest nation on earth. And I mean that, we are the greatest nation, with many freedoms...one of which is the right to bear arms. While this event is indeed horrible, you have to admit that weapons don't kill people, evil people kill people. You could kill someone with a knife, rock, or hey even your car...does that mean we will eventually give up those as well?
This isnt a case for gun control, we already have many laws in place...by the way those law breakers could care less about gun laws, so they don't really work...but this is a case for the fact that people dont have the morals they have had in previous generations.
When people grow up in a society that tells them there arent absolute rights and wrongs, then they will make up their own sets of values and sometimes those values will be pure evil.
Maybe just maybe, we should as a society, we should start instilling morals, ethics, and morals that build a love and value of human life.

Originally posted by alldaylong
reply to post by korathin

 

Your knowledge of history is somewhat vague.
The first Concentration Camps where not set up by the British, but where in fact set up by the Spanish in Cuba.
As for the war of 1812, Britain could have taken the States back if we had not been otherwise occupied in fighting Napoleon in Europe and else were. Did you forget the Redcoats burnt The White House to the ground or where you never taught that?

Yes, Washington D.C was raised and the good Lord drove the redcoats out with several tornado's. And your right, the Spanish did create the first Concentration Camp, about three years before the British used the same strategy to starve 40,000 Boer women and children to death.

I know we Americans are not without sin, but the sheer pathological nature of the British peoples refusal to acknowledge the criminal actions of their society(and how they are currently raping America for oil), their raping and pillaging across all corners of the Earth for several hundred years, makes it impossible to ever trust you. It is like a convicted rapist that was recently released tried to convince the community he or she moved to, to remove all the locks on the door in the interests of a closer community.

What difference would it make? if the people in these incidents did not have a firearm the would use any other tool of possible destruction. The 1999 columbine shooters first deployed I.E.D that failed what if that had not failed in a lunch room full of students the death toll would have been ten times. www.abovetopsecret.com... there is another ATS article of school incident with a knife. Every high school in my area has a resource officer on campus during all school hours they will not be able to stop the attacks every time but they could prevent several by just being there. I remember my elementary office you could walk right in and would pass the library before getting to the office. Better security will not stop all but may prevent many, Teachers with guns I do not agree with I have seen several mad enough to do something stupid if the had an opportunity. Remember life has a balance you can never get ahead by removing what you think is evil something of equal or worse will take its place every time just prepare for the worst and take the best out of each situation you come into

Too bad criminals don't follow gun laws, gun legislation seem to mainly control the law abiding masses. You can look at urban areas with higher gun restrictions and crime tends to be more prevalent in those locations. It is easier for criminals to procure firearms in those areas than for the law abiding citizens to do so. I think the key is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, and unfortunately, since they don't follow laws, that can be difficult to do through legislation. Connecticut already has strict gun laws. I hate to say it, but history seems to show that it is quite ineffective to attempt to only use legislation as a way to produce a safer populace.

If teachers were to use guns, they probably should keep one concealed carry or always locked in their desk for reasonably quick access. They should also be thoroughly trained in gun safety. Of course, this is assuming you do not have criminals teaching your children. Although some will not agree here, I would say it would be more effective than having one security officer on duty. It also probably need not be that every instructor is armed with a weapon.

As was mentioned, taking all of the guns away is not a real answer. It is less efficient and easy to commit mass murder with a knife, but take the recent Chinese stabbing of twenty-two children, news.ca.msn.com... i] If no one in a crowd has a sidearm to put down a criminal, that exacerbates any similar situation. As someone said, to a large extent this is a mental health issue, a problem of societal sickness, and in some cases even a prescription drug problem, etc.

Again, I don't expect everyone here to agree with me, but I'll just repost part of an exchange I had a few days ago with someone about this video: www.youtube.com... which briefly discusses the general topic at hand. This is my end of the conversation:

"'You can't eliminate murder by eliminating the murder weapon" best quote from the video, very true, as you said, fix the social and spiritual problem at it's source".

"I think this would quote would roughly fit your position, 'I feel safer in 'gun-free' zones because criminals aren't allowed to use guns in them. That's the way it works right?'"

"You can do everything possible to minimize your risk, aka live in ...an area with many law abiding gun owners, don't go out at night, etc. but the fact remains, if you happen upon an errant criminal you are a sitting duck if you are completely unarmed. That fact plays out again and again from the Colorado shooting to this latest sports related tragedy".

...And no, my thoughts are not just talking points. Should I post more data and historical examples? I don't think that would even help the OP accept my views on this topic. He is certainly welcome to his own opinion. Nevertheless, it is still more of a societal problem, to illustrate please re-review this brief video I posted about this general topic: Costas remark put into perspective

Originally posted by ALOSTSOUL
Now I know I'm not American and I know it's not my place to say what you should do but there has been 60 mass school shootings since the 1999 columbine shooting.

"Since the 1999 Columbine tragedy there have been sixty school shootings, double the rate seen in the previous decade. These school shootings have resulted in 181 deaths," said psychiatrist Dr Warren Steiner, of McGill University, Montreal.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

And now with the shooting at sandy hook the statistics rises to 61 shootings and (approx) 210 deaths 20 of which are young children.

Now I know your worried and I know its in the constitution to "bear arms" but surely enough is enough. We here in britain have done just fine with tight gun control. In fact I would go as far to say that it's one of the best things that's happened to Britain since the NHS.

How many more people must die because you are to proud to give up your pistols?

Remember if you relinquish your weapons so will the police (or most of).

Please America start thinking about gun control!

ALS

edit on 14-12-2012 by ALOSTSOUL because: (no reason given)

You know, this Friday, a man ran into a school in China and killed over twenty people with a knife. Should we ban all knives now?

reply to post by SerenityAva


Thank you for your post. It seems hard to explain to people in other parts of the World why it is important for U.S. Citizens to retain their Constitutional Right to Bear Arms.

I have been all over and when in another Country such as one in the E.U...I sense a certain lack of rights and freedom that Europeans do not even perceive.

Sure they will tell you that they are free and not being able to own a weapon for protection has no bearing upon their feelings of freedom. This is because a person who has never had something will never know what it is like to not have it.

Weapon Ownership and Rights were placed in the Bill of Rights as a way to prevent any Government of the U.S. from being able to force upon the people laws that did not follow the Constitution. Even today Politicians may come and go and some are good and some are not so good but one thing they all fear is the WRATH OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Nothing is as fearsome as a Citizenship that can vote in or out it's Leadership. Nor is there any other Country in the World that has a population that can generate if needed a Militia to protect the Nation as well as augment the Military of a number of more that 100 Million Well Armed Citizens.

Split Infinity

The guns stay as they are. A lion kills a gazelle because it must eat. A human kills another human for some reason, that reason doesn't matter. It's a species utilizing what it has in order to perform a choice. The lion has its speed, claws, and jaw which is used to kill the gazelle and the human has its gun, bullets, and aim to kill another human. The problem lies in the fact too many people feel the human species is above other species. We're animals killing our fellow animal. It happens throughout nature. Throughout nature there are many examples of an animal using resources to kill another animal. As stated before, the reason doesn't matter. Accept the fact that animals kill animals. Life goes on. Let it happen if it must. Look at the bigger picture of it all.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity Sure they will tell you that they are free and not being able to own a weapon for protection has no bearing upon their feelings of freedom. This is because a person who has never had something will never know what it is like to not have it.

well. i've never had AIDS and i'm damn sure i don't need to have it to know it sucks. moot point.

Originally posted by Bodhi7
reply to post by wrksstudios

 

Yeah, yeah. A lot of people claim that, but if soldiers and police came knocking, 99% of people would quickly hand their weapons over.

You ignorantly suggest that the military would follow an unlawful order. The people of America have every right to carry firearms, as granted by the US Constitution, and further reenforced by our State Constitutions. Many people have CPL's (Concealed Pistol Licenses) as well.

As a veteran, I can assure you that the military does not side with the administration on this matter, and would not act if the President dared take such a stand. They would cite it as an unlawful order and refuse to take action. The police don't have the manpower to handle a few city blocks, let alone a whole city.

Most people know that this is an issue that would cause a second civil war in the US (and no, the military wouldn't support the antigun folks with them holding weapons - that's the definition of irony). Americans know full well that they can not depend on the government, nor can they expect them to do the right thing. We follow in the footsteps of the Minute Men. We'll protect ourselves, and we'll protect our own families.

All it would take is for a significant portion of the military to turn on the Executive for issuing a direct attack on the Constitution and the Bill of Rights for this country to officially be over. If that's what the world wants, then it's a great way to achieve it. There are too many veterans walking the streets fully armed right now. They are in your stores, they are in your restaurants, and they are in your parks. We are everywhere and when combined with the portion of the military that would refuse to accept the orders, the other side would have a very serious fight on their hands.

The funny thing about all of this is that the antigun folks can only win WITH GUNS. Want to bring a knife to a gun fight? Good luck with that.

Notice that the solution here is to tell parents that their children aren't perfect, that the parents aren't perfect, that society doesn't give a f**k how they feel about themselves, and that we'd be much better off as a society if we took these developmentally disabled kids out of the system. Back when I was in school, do you know how many autistic kids we had in our classes? ZERO. NONE. They weren't allowed to go. They weren't allowed to attend school. Like the ones who are blobs of flesh and can't even interact with a teacher, let alone learn are even more of a blight on our society. Imagine having to hire people to work with kids in school who need to be tube fed, and have to have people clean up after them as the defecate all over themselves. This shooter was seen by everyone as a risk. How many interviewed said, "I doesn't surprise me." They knew the kid had a screw loose, and yet nothing was done because no one wants to hurt the parents feelings, or the kids feelings. And then they wonder why these things happen. There are kids who ought to be in asylums, or special living facilities, who walk the halls of schools because it would be politically incorrect to force them out of school.

We see time after time that people say that all the warning signs were there and yet they did nothing because it might upset the parents or the kids. You want to solve this problem? Realize that the weapon itself can be a knife, gun, bomb, etc. The weapon is just the means. No one is willing to deal with the crazy people because that might hurt their feelings, and might just make their parents look bad.

The weapons don't matter. The crazy people do, but they get a free pass in America.

An interesting statistic I've seen is that every time there's a school shooting, gun sales go up by at least 25% because people are afraid of their guns being taken away. Maybe that's what is motivating any possible conspiracy. If big business is behind these things and they always profit, wouldn't it make sense that the gun industry becomes a suspect since they are the ones that have the most to gain?

Originally posted by RoScoLaz

Originally posted by SplitInfinity Sure they will tell you that they are free and not being able to own a weapon for protection has no bearing upon their feelings of freedom. This is because a person who has never had something will never know what it is like to not have it.

well. i've never had AIDS and i'm damn sure i don't need to have it to know it sucks. moot point.

There is no logic in your analogy. There is a vast difference between loosing a right as compared to a person who never had that right not understanding what it is to have it...and contracting a disease.

Anyone here can understand what it is like to have or know someone or know for themselves what it is like to loose someone or have their life in jeopardy.

Split Infinity

"Relinquish"? Why, because a crazy man committed a horrible offense against defenseless people? Doesn't sound like a reasonable response to this tragedy?
No politician’s crocodile tears where cried for Brian Terry, when he was killed by a weapon relinquished to the Mexican drug cartel by the same stuffed shirts calling for reasonable gun laws. Or the rest of the havoc created down south, or any other country they sell weapons to that never turn out to be liberty loving democracies. That Terry incident has all been but covered up now, and those officials seem to have no accountability or repercussions for their dirty work. And I'm to believe they have a great humane reason for wanting my countrymans guns? Why should we easily give up our personal freedoms or rights to a few other men for a fantasy promise of safety and security? It is not cold hearted to say. I feel for those who do not feel a desire or need for firearms and a strong sense of self preservation, and became dead. I am sorry for their families and wish the perpetrators would live to face justice. But justice is a plea of insanity and mere sentence to a nut house and a life sentence of nurse maiding by social workers unfortunately. Instead of turning them over to the families for real justice. All of this provided by the same stuffed shirts and wise sages that misconstrue our beloved Constitution they seem to despise even though they swear to uphold it.
This era, or 21st century as one poster called it, is no different than the centuries before. As 1 weapon plus, no weapon, still would equal a dead serf even in this era. So Europe or the U.N., in all its splendid glory and pomp can view our Republic, in any light it wishes. Your not part of my reality untill your boots hit my beaches. I see no reason for disarming a perfectly organized yet somehow dysfunctional society as ours. And we are very suspicious of any officials that want to countermine our equality and only means of securing our personal freedoms. Our Constitution is simple and clear. The rest of the founding documents and writings of the time explain the reasoning behind the Constitution. The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with hunting or sports.

Originally posted by Antonio1

You know, this Friday, a man ran into a school in China and killed over twenty people with a knife. Should we ban all knives now?

No he didn't. He injured 22 children but didn't manage to kill anyone. Fortunate he didn't have a gun.

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Even as regulated as cars and driving are approximate 50,000 lives a year are lost in driving accidents. Even as horrific as these mass shootings are the number killed is less than 50 people in 2012 (a high mark year). Often there are up to 50 civilians killed in one drone attack on a targeted terrorist in the Iraq and Afghanistan theatre...but we dont mourn for those (collateral) victims.

edit on 16-12-2012 by CosmicCitizen because: (no reason given)

You don't?

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Weapon Ownership and Rights were placed in the Bill of Rights as a way to prevent any Government of the U.S. from being able to force upon the people laws that did not follow the Constitution. Even today Politicians may come and go and some are good and some are not so good but one thing they all fear is the WRATH OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

seems like the constitution is a bit like the bible to americans. Pick & choose which parts they need to follow. Where was the armed up rising against unconstitutional checkpoints in the usa? or detaining people without trial?

gun ownership of citizens has done nothing to stop those. Its not stopped corporations influencing politics so much that its to the detriment of society.

To say the only reason the gvt isnt turning on you is out of fear is paranoid deluded nonsense. Seems like your guns are a big illusion you cling to.

If the US military came looking for you there's nothing your guns could do about it. How do you fight a reaper drone which sends a pin point accurate missile onto your house? how about a cruise missile?

you might aswell say you need them for the zombie apocalypse