China School Knife Attack - Over 20 injured, including children

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Originally posted by ManjushriPrajna
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

 

The burden of proof is on you. You're the one making the claims that we need more gun control, and that would solve these sorts of problems. I don't have to provide anything.

Again, show evidence that your claims are valid and that gun control would be justified, otherwise your argument is null and void.

OK how about it would make it harder for students to get guns and shoot up their schools??
Reason enough?
Were not talking about hardened criminals who know black market suppliers, were talking about children and lone nutjobs.

You said that gun crime is proportionate to stricter gun laws, can you point me in the direction of this piece of data? Every piece of info Ive looked at in the course of these discussions Ive found have been misquoted or cherry picked to fit the gun lovers arguments.

You quoted a hard fact (allegedly) so the burden of proof is actually on you

Tell that to the two boys who shot up the school in Columbine. Look at the current gun laws in Jefferson County and then tell me if you really think even more gun laws would have stopped them. After spending months of planning and thousands of dollars on firearms and other equipment to use in the shooting, they were able to waltz into the place and start firing. If a person wants to grab a gun, and plan on shooting up a place, all the gun laws in the world won't stop him. Even Darrell Scott, a father of two of the victims at Columbine, speaking at a Subcommittee On Crime hearing right after the shooting, said no gun laws would have kept it from happening (web.archive.org...://www.house.gov/judiciary/cr0527.htm).

You also seem to forget that another lone nut job, Lee Harvey Oswald, was able to get a rifle into a book depository window and put multiple bullets into the most powerful man in the United States, despite presidential security.

And if children are getting their hands on guns, gun laws aren't really going to solve that problem, are they? Because they're clearly not getting them from law abiding gun merchants.

You also seem to forget what you yourself post. Your very first post has you saying:

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
Wake up morons, guns are bad!!!!

And later, you said:

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
the vast majority of the world does just fine without guns.

Your entire position is that obviously these sorts of things would happen, because we allow people to own guns. If guns were banned, these things wouldn't happen.

YOU'RE the one making the positive assertion. He or she who makes a positive assertion bears the burden of proof. If the positive assertion cannot be held up with demonstratable evidence, the null hypothesis (my position) wins. That's how debating works (which you're kind of lousy at, no offense, don't expect any anti-gun groups to hire you as their spokesperson anytime soon).

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

Drugs like coc aine and heroin have been criminalized, but how many people can still get these drugs on street corners in every city? Tell the truth.

Gun laws take the weapons out of law abiding citizens hands and puts them into the hands of non-law abiding criminals so they can become absolute predators. It's simple logic. Why do you think lone gunmen choose places like elementary schools and movie theaters to carry out massacres? Like another member posted earlier the only way for it to possibly work would be if all the guns and military powers on the entire planet disappeared when the legislation was signed but that's not going to happen, its very big business.

"When 5 seconds counts, the police are 5 minutes away". All the police are good for in these situations is putting bodies in bags and filling out paperwork. I would rather have my families life in my own hands thank you.

Hypothetical question I would like you to answer. If you were in that movie theater in Aurora Colorado that night, and you had a conceal carry firearm on you, what could you have done?

reply to post by TheBorg

Not allowing guns in the hands of teachers, in this case, cost 20 students their lives.

So you have 2 scenarios here, the teachers keep it locked up for safety, how would that have helped?

Or they carry it with them at all times, how long till theres an accident or a disgruntled student gets their hands on it?

If you want there to be a law that prohibits all guns in all citizens hands, then you'll need to have every home and every institution outfitted with a law enforcement officer to amply protect the people. Based on this logical line of thinking, I assume that you're a proponent of Big Government, am I right?

Other countries do just fine without cops everywhere and without everyone being armed, I think the reason your in the mess you are is precisely because so many of you are armed!!

And no I am not a proponent of Big Gov, Im a proponent of no weapons of death for citizens

So what would you have people do in the event that a violent crime is committed? Call the police, and pray to whatever God they believe in, hoping that He won't take their lives today? Self defense will have been removed from the equation when guns are removed from the citizens.

So why do Poms and Aussies feel safe without guns? why do we not have mass shootings every few weeks?

That's exactly what I am saying. More people SHOULD carry firearms. I have already asked you a similar question: Where were the police while this was going on? No where to be found. They didn't even fire a shot, as the crime had already been committed, and the shooter had already committed suicide. So much for police being able to defend the people!!

True they cant be everywhere at once but are you really suggesting teachers should be in class teaching with a fully loaded weapon on their hip?
Can you not see how that is absolutely sick
Why is America so different to countries that are culturally similar?
If you even breathed a suggestion of this in Oz or the UK you would be considered as psycho as the shooters themsleves

Fair point. But how many of these would be prevented if more people carried? It's all part of the mindset that in this country, there's no accountability for anything because no one can stop you. If the teachers had all had firearms available to them, it may have given this individual a second thought about going through with it.

Can you seriously not see this is a catch 22 situation? more guns in circulation means more and easier access to guns for the psychos so then you need even more people carrying and the cycle goes on and on and gets worse and worse

Typically, we use it to kill animals for food.

Seriously

Traditionally or ideally I would have accepted but typically?
How many of the 100 Million plus US gun owners hunt for food with their gun?

MY sole reason for being a gun owner is to protect myself from someone trying to take my life before the police can get here to save me. Would you have me lie down and die when a criminal who disregards the law shows up with the intention of killing me?

The sole reason this is a concern of yours is because there are so many guns in circulation in your country.
The vast majority of westen civilisation outside of the US does not have this concern

This however makes me neither crazy or irrational. It makes me responsible.

No it makes you scared, fearful and easy to control. " a fearful populace is a controlled populace"
As long as I have my gun Im safe, sure take my jobs, poison my food, spy on me at will but just leave my gun alone coz it makes me feel warm and fuzzy and the bad people wont get me

I have to have the right to self defense. By your own admission, you would have that right rescinded. I'm sorry, but I will NOT subscribe to that line of thinking. That's both self-defeatest and irrational, by definition.

I dont need a gun for self defence, the fact you feel you do is just wrong. I would hate to live with that kind of fear in my life but somehow for you guys its just normal and almost comes across like you all find it preferable

Yes. However, there are laws in place to prevent mentally unstable people from accessing them.

Accessing them legally you mean. Whats to stop psychos breaking into homes and stealing the guns of "rational" people?

The reality of our world is that we cannot be safe when we rely on others for our own protection. To do so is to sign our own death certificate.

So according to your logic all the rest of us without guns are on borrowed time till some bogey man comes to our house and kills us while we cower unprotected in bed. I dont think so.

The coincidences are too great, no one is addressing the fact that these are no longer isolated incidents. We are facing the first phase of the degradation of the human mind caused by environMental destruction and over stimuli of the human brain. Some of us can take it others cannot! The leaders are failing drasticlly. Rhetoric is flying and empty commmiseration is all they have. Ministers and Priests are speechless only to spew false words and echos of failing religions We have come to the turning point of the Human condition. Soon, very soon a lot of us will begin to see it more clearly and if something isn't done soon it will be too late. Whether it's Zombie apocalypse or just a simple chemical imbalance in the human brain makes no difference. Something is causing ordinary people to snap! Yes some have a a history of mental illness and perhaps that's a common denominator in those who will collapse first. but how long can we hold out, how long before average individuals will begin to crumble under the weight of the silent evil that is overtaking the human mind. I fear for my family and I will stand off on the sidelines watching and waiting to see where this will lead. The politicians will blabber needlessly only to be a part of the mayhem and madness only to usher it in. God help us all, the innocent suffer and the leaders are blind!! Who needs 2012, we are becoming our own destruction! I pray for strength for you all and your famillies, hold on to your love it's the only thing that can combat the madness!

time to ban the knives folks, maybe we should all live in a safety bubble

reply to post by Konduit

If you were in that movie theater in Aurora Colorado that night, and you had a conceal carry firearm on you, what could you have done?

Stupid and leading question but Ill play

Of course I would have used it... DUH

But to address your other point guns are acceptable and even encouraged in your society, in other western cultures its enough of a taboo that gun violence is very rare.

It seems like its becoming more common in yours, does that not disturb you?

Actually probably not, you have a gun so ul be fine

reply to post by ManjushriPrajna

Tell that to the two boys who shot up the school in Columbine. Look at the current gun laws in Jefferson County and then tell me if you really think even more gun laws would have stopped them. After spending months of planning and thousands of dollars on firearms and other equipment to use in the shooting, they were able to waltz into the place and start firing.

You kinda just made my argument for me, these kids were able to buy guns!!!!
Im not saying tougher gun restrictions Im saying COMPLETELY BAN GUNS so noone let alone kids can buy them

You also seem to forget that another lone nut job, Lee Harvey Oswald, was able to get a rifle into a book depository window and put multiple bullets into the most powerful man in the United States, despite presidential security.

I didnt forget it and once again your making my argument for me, the pres was surrounded by security yet a guy was able to buy a gun and shoot him in broad daylight.
How was that meant to be an argument for your case

And if children are getting their hands on guns, gun laws aren't really going to solve that problem, are they? Because they're clearly not getting them from law abiding gun merchants.

Your right, they are clearly getting them from people who got them from law abiding people who got them from law abiding gun merchants

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff Wake up morons, guns are bad!!!!

And later, you said:

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff the vast majority of the world does just fine without guns.

Your entire position is that obviously these sorts of things would happen, because we allow people to own guns. If guns were banned, these things wouldn't happen. YOU'RE the one making the positive assertion. He or she who makes a positive assertion bears the burden of proof. If the positive assertion cannot be held up with demonstratable evidence, the null hypothesis (my position) wins. That's how debating works (which you're kind of lousy at, no offense, don't expect any anti-gun groups to hire you as their spokesperson anytime soon).

LMAO coming from the guy who is making my argument for me

OK I dont see how those 2 quotes from me are related to what youre saying
SO tell me why these shootings dont happen every couple months in Oz, the UK or Canada which are pretty much culturally identical to the US?

My evidence is that this only happens with any regularity within the US and nowhere else.
Other than what ifs and coulda beens I havent heard any proof that guns make you safer as a person or as a society.
Your obviously saying it does so where is your proof?

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
But to address your other point guns are acceptable and even encouraged in your society, in other western cultures its enough of a taboo that gun violence is very rare.

Yes. Like Canada, who has a .1 higher (1.6) intentional homicide rate per 10,000 citizens than Somalia and Algeria (1.5). Compare that to Switzerland's 0.7.

I forgot to mention all males in Switzerland when they turn 18 are given guns, ammunition, and training, all bought and paid for by the government.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


And again, the point flies right over your head. They weren't allowed to buy the guns, gun laws should have prevented that. They didn't. Now they're dead and so are the thirteen kids they killed.

They're an argument for my case simply by the fact that crazy people do crazy things, they will find a way to get guns and break gun laws, and if they can't do that, they'll find other means of carrying out atrocities. In Killeen, Texas a man by the name of George Jo Hennard went into a diner with two pistols and killed 23 people. Two of the people, an elderly couple, had a daughter who witnessed the slaughtering. She became a gun advocate afterwards. It was precisely because of gun laws that she wasn't allowed to conceal carry, she had to keep her gun in her car at the time. The third deadliest non-military massacre in US history, the Bath School disaster, was carried out by Andrew Kehoe using only explosives.

And now this happens. I guess you'll want to ban knives too? Good luck eating steak without a knife. People are murdered by cars, might as well ban those too. I've seen people in the news getting beat to death with bare fists, should we confiscate all hands?

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Your right, they are clearly getting them from people who got them from law abiding people who got them from law abiding gun merchants

So in order to stop that, we need to ban guns outright. That would solve the problem, yeah? Tell that to African warlords who somehow get their hands on guns without law abiding merchants.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

OK I dont see how those 2 quotes from me are related to what youre saying

They're called assertions. You're making them, and again, not providing any actual evidence to show that gun laws work.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

My evidence is that this only happens with any regularity within the US and nowhere else.

Not only is that not evidence at all, but:

en.wikipedia.org...

I guess it doesn't just happen with regularity in the US.

Also:

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


I was going to respond point by point to your last response to me, but the following made me stop cold:

I dont need a gun for self defence, the fact you feel you do is just wrong. I would hate to live with that kind of fear in my life but somehow for you guys its just normal and almost comes across like you all find it preferable

What makes you think that I'm afraid? I carry a weapon because I can't defend myself any other way. Something that I've never shared here with the membership at large is that I'm disabled. I cannot fight in any significant physical capacity, so I have to find other means to protect myself. I was born with Cerebral Palsy, but I got fortunate in that it only affected my legs. However, one of the obvious side effects is that I cannot keep my balance. If I could,I wouldn't feel the need to have a weapon, as we're all born with weapons. Our bodies make the best weapons out there. Martial arts has proven time and time again that the human body can do amazing things, when people condition themselves to do it.

Regardless, what you're proposing is something that is a flight of fancy, and can never happen. I completely agree with you in that it would be nice to not have guns available. Again, the reality is that this isn't possible. If not guns, then it would have been bows and arrows, or rocks with slings/slingshots. ANYTHING can be made into a weapon. Hell, this laptop that I'm typing on right now can be readily made into a lethal weapon. Do we need to illegalize laptops too? I know that sounds a bit out there, but it's a legitimate question, considering that you want there to be no guns,

The truth is, if guns are not available, and someone wants to kill someone, they will. Making laws to stop them from owning guns is not going to do any good. In the ideal world that you, I, and every "normal" person dreams of, where violence is nonexistent, I would be farting rainbows and butterflies!!

So, for the sake of discussion henceforth, lets both agree to disagree on this, accept that making guns illegal now isn't going to make any difference, and move on. K?

Limping his way through life,
TheBorg
Forum Member and Moderator

Originally posted by ManjushriPrajna
Also:

19:58 - 22:38 pretty much sums up the whole argument.

reply to post by ManjushriPrajna

They're an argument for my case simply by the fact that crazy people do crazy things, they will find a way to get guns and break gun laws, and if they can't do that, they'll find other means of carrying out atrocities.

So does this mean the US has by far and away the highest amount of crazy people in the world?
And this thread is an example of what happens when crazies cant get guns. Crazy with no gun= 20 injured crazy with gun= 27 dead

And now this happens. I guess you'll want to ban knives too? Good luck eating steak without a knife. People are murdered by cars, might as well ban those too. I've seen people in the news getting beat to death with bare fists, should we confiscate all hands?

Your being facetious and you know it, these things when they kill someone are being misused, when a gun kills its just serving the purpose it was made for. Its an evil tool whos sole purpose is death

So in order to stop that, we need to ban guns outright. That would solve the problem, yeah? Tell that to African warlords who somehow get their hands on guns without law abiding merchants.

Exactly

African warlords have millions of dollars in diamonds, drugs, gold etc etc to trade for the guns. Did these kids have millions worth of stuff to trade?

They're called assertions. You're making them, and again, not providing any actual evidence to show that gun laws work.

And what "evidence have you provided? all youve done is "attack" my position with what in reality are actually arguments for my position

as to the wiki article

Africa and middle east gun rampages since 2000= 32
Asian gun rampages since 2000= 59
European gun rampages since 2000= 16
SE Asian including Australia and Oceania gun rampages since 2000= 9
South American Gun Rampages since 2000= 4
American gun rampages since 2000= 19

As a country America is by far and away the clear winner, hell your only 3 times behind All of Asia with a population 10 times the size with poverty, rampant political corruption, inequality etc etc in the mix over there.
The only other country that comes even close to double digits is China and once again in pretty much all these other rampages there was some sort of religious or political motivator, not just frustrated Kids blowing away bullies

Now thats look at school shootings shall we

Of the 25 world wide school massacres that involved fatalities since 2000 8 were in the US and another 8 in china.
Total dead in China= 50
Total dead in USA= 101

The difference? Guns vs knives and guess which country used the guns? Also most of the Chinese massacres were done by Adults not students.

So you are correct, the USA isnt the only country with regular massacres (I admit I was wrong on that) .
So basically your only twice as bad in terms of total deaths than China which has a population 3 times that of the US, a much more repressive regime and less chance for people to get any help they may need for mental conditions.

Top job USA.

Got any more stats for me?

reply to post by TheBorg


Im sure your aware I meant no disrespect or harm. I also wasnt implying you or any other gun owners are cowards merely that the combination of the media and guns being everywhere makes people fearful of not having one.

Regardless of circumstances it is unfortunate that anyone feels the need for a gun, at least that much we agree on.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


The stats you just quoted prove what we've been saying for a while now. The fact that a tightly controlled country such as China has 3 TIMES the number of gun-related shootings as the US speaks moreso against gun restrictions than anything else. Odd, considering that the Chinese individual used a knife, when it would appear that guns are much easier to find than we once thought!!

As I've been saying all along, restricting guns does NO good.

Besides, the US is what we call a "melting pot". Everyone accuses the US of being this group of crazy nutjobs, when in reality, we are composed of ALL peoples from ALL OVER THE WORLD! There are Americans from every country on the planet.

TheBorg
Forum Member and Moderator

reply to post by TheBorg


Sorry dude but China doesnt have anywhere near as many gun deaths either by total or when scaled to fit population sizes.
The only thing it compares to you guys in is total number of school massacres and even then twice as many died in the US than China

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


The deaths are in fact lower, but the incident numbers are higher, which tells me that there's a LOT more crazy people in China than there are here in the US!!

Look, I'm not saying that there aren't nutjobs here. Hell, yesterday PROVED that one!!! All I'm asking is that people don't damn the guns as a whole based on the fringe group of crazies that utilized them. As has been said many times over, it's not the guns that killed those people. It's the crazy person that killed them!!!

Is it easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife? You betcha! Is a knife less dangerous than a gun though? No. Each are just as deadly, provided the user knows how to use one.

I will tell you this; if you can find a way to instantly remove ALL guns from ALL people simultaneously around the world, let me know. That would be something that I and just about every law-abiding citizen could get behind!!

TheBorg
Forum Member and Moderator

Originally posted by Konduit

Originally posted by ManjushriPrajna
Also:

19:58 - 22:38 pretty much sums up the whole argument.

Yeah Penn and Teller are a great source

You see the one about 9-11? It was definately Al Qeada, how do I know? Coz they said all the conspiracy theories were BS.

Top job once again

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Your kinda proving my point, Imagine if these deranged people had easy access to guns.
Instead of 8 deaths you would be looking at potentially 27!!!!

As for banning everything you know thats a stupid argument, guns and swords sole purpose is to kill things.
Cars fertiliser etc etc when used to hurt people are being misused.
Guns on the other hand, when used to kill are just doing what they were made for

I didn't prove your point, and the fact that you can't even admit to being wrong shows that nomatter what is shown to you you will continue claiming that "guns are evil, they must be banned"...

The murderer could have easily chosen to use alcohol, or wine bottles to make molotov cocktails and could have burned the children to death, and the death toll would have been much higher...

Are you going to ban alcohol, even rubbing alcohol, and wine?...

The fact that so many people have been murdered with knives shows that no matter what the criminal chooses to use he/she will acomplish that...

Knives, and clubs were also originally made to kill things, and even other people....

Are you going to ban EVERY knife and EVERY piece of wood because they were originally used for killing?...

Even before wood was used for tinder it was used as a weapon... That was it's original use, and the fact that you don't know this shows who really is stupid, and just making excuses because you want to ban a tool that gets your panties in a bunch...

Im not one to call out a conspiracy, but i do think its insane that both of these tragic events happened in the same day.

I saw a video recently which comes to mind, it involves a brutal robbery stopped by a firearm. I think its worth sharing because it shows you just how brutal the world we live in is. Imagine if the owner wasnt armed...

BE WARNED!

*****GRAPHIC, EXTREME VIOLENCE, CLICK AT YOUR OWN WILL*****

www.liveleak.com...