Another gun killed a person

Originally posted by HellstormRising

Not sure if you're trolling or not but by the logic above, you can ban the following items as well.

Bow & Arrows
Cars,
Butter Knives,
Fixed blade boot knives,
hatchets,
axes,
power drills,
saws - power and hand held,
flat head and philips head screw drivers,
awls,
rope,
cement,
socks and doorknobs,


I hope you get my point.

Most of those items are designed for other purposes, a firearm is generally designed for one purpose alone, and it isn't target practise.

I've never understood the logic behind "Guns don't kill people, people do", a gun does not fire itself (generally speaking), so in that aspect, yes, but the fact is, the person uses the gun as a tool, therefore the gun (or more to the point, the round) kills the person, providing there is a person firing it.

Guns in civilian hands leads to nothing but trouble, the people responsible for massacres are generally not criminals, they are ordinary people (with or without initial mental issues) who just snap.

Originally posted by mazzroth
Listen here. I own plenty of firearms and this has to be said: Not everyone is entitled to own a gun, people with a propensity to break the law and violent people should never be allowed to own guns period. I don't care about your right to bare arms as part of your Constitution because that was written in an age when people had generally a higher moral standing and doing the proper thing was taught.

These days you have all kinds of idiots doing stupid and dangerous things under the influence of modern cocktails of drugs that alter an individuals thought process, that coupled with the lack of common decency.

I don't want any idiot to have a gun, there has to be some kind of vetting to see if you are a fit and proper person who could be trusted and not just rock up to the store and buy what ever you want.

Then you basically saying that nothing should be changed. Because people that want to own a gun for protection first learn how to use it, obtain a concealed pistol permit if they want to carry, and make sure no kids in the house can get their hands on it.

Criminals buy a gun for committing a crime and they buy it on a black market without receipts and stuff. It's already illegal to sell guns on a black market but they still do. Criminals will be criminals.

118,000 deaths due to medical errors per year. 11,500 firearm homicides per year.

You are TEN TIMES more likely t o be killed by a doctor than a gun.

BAN DOCTORS. It's the only way you can be safe.

reply to post by CaptChaos


That is a seriously flawed argument, one is unintentional, one is not.

The surgeon/doctor sets out with the intention of saving a life, and things go wrong. The gunman intends to kill right from the start.

EDIT: That plus there is a lot more surgeries performed per year by people who want to save lives than people who go out and kill.

reply to post by woogleuk

That is a seriously flawed argument, one is unintentional, one is not. That is a seriously flawed argument, one is unintentional, one is not.

Nurse sentenced to life for killing patients by injecting them with bleach

Ban bleach!

The gunman intends to kill right from the start.

I think you mean criminal not gunman.

reply to post by whatsecret


Ban bleach? Haaaaa! Yea, just because people drown are we supposed to outlaw water? Just because people die of old age should we outlaw time?

guns don't kill... people do.

Look, I have no dog in this fight but this 'Guns don't kill people' argument is moronic. If you genuinely cannot take on board the idea that a phrase such as 'Guns are responsible for XYZ deaths...' is offered with the (outrageous?) presupposition that you are intelligent enough to grasp the unspoken understanding shared by the grown-ups in the discussion that, yes, there most likely will be a person the other end of that gun then I'd suggest you really shouldn't be allowed to play with anything more dangerous than blunt, edible crayons (without the glued on paper label which I will remove for you with safety scissors). The idea that someone so ignorant as to genuinely forward this argument would want to play with guns, lmfao, no #ing way. Actually I'd ring back and order the crayons oversized so you couldn't fit them up your nose.

You're doing yourselves no favors here. For 's sake stop being so stupid and move the argument forward, anyone would think you are trying to make gun owners look foolish.

reply to post by whatsecret


The difference is the nurse INTENDED to kill, and yes, I mean gunman, not criminal, yes the gunman maybe a criminal (or soon will be after killing someone), but he is still using a gun, therefore a gunman.

For the record, I was referring to people using guns to commit a crime, not every single person who owns a gun.

Here is my honest opinion (and I am a HUGE Second Amendment supporter)

"Guns dont kill people" argument: Dumb...It is true, but a dumb argument nevertheless. People on the other "side" can usually statistically tear this argument to shreds by presenting a million situations where had a killer NOT had access to a gun, folks would be alive. Same with suicides.

Then the Gun Supporters will show statistics of a legal gun owner stopping a crime or a mass murder being done with a kitchen chair.

-Rinse, repeat...

But here is the thing. This "genie" is out of the bottle. These weapons are already in the hands of the criminals ("criminal" being a relative word) some of which WANT TO DO HARM to innocent people...

Soooo.... I really dont care about the effect on "society" or what some guy in Denver did- I care about my family. The crazies and the madness are there, but I at least can defend MYSELF , those I love and innocents around me if there is NO OTHER CHOICE.

If guns could just "poof" go away- There would still be madness, gangs and others wanting to overpower you (and me)- Guns DO make things worse, but since they are already here I might as well "equalize" myyself and protect my right to do so.

reply to post by Mark Harris


To be honest I don't understand what you're saying, But

Look, I have no dog in this fight but this 'Guns don't kill people' argument is moronic.

The thing is that any time somebody uses a gun to kill people, some start blaming the GUN as if this person didn't have a GUN he or she would not kill anybody. And this kind of logic is stupid. A mentally ill or just plain evil person can kill using hundreds different things. .

You're doing yourselves no favors here. For 's sake stop being so stupid and move the argument forward, anyone would think you are trying to make gun owners look foolish.

I don't get your point, can you clarify?

tools of a 'trade'

restrict the tools. they'll find another.

restrict the trade == necessity is the mother of invention.

simple as that.

people will always find another means to accomplish the task they've set out to do. (?)

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by whatsecret

 

The difference is the nurse INTENDED to kill, and yes, I mean gunman, not criminal, yes the gunman maybe a criminal (or soon will be after killing someone), but he is still using a gun, therefore a gunman.

The nurse loaded her "gun" syringe with "ammunition" bleach and killed people. A handgun wasn't her style i guess. How should we make sure this doesn't happen again?

Ban bleach, or ban syringes, or ban nurses? Or we don't ban anything because if it would not be bleach and a syringe she would find something else to use because she is a evil bitch not because it was easy to obtain her weapon of choice.

For the record, I was referring to people using guns to commit a crime, not every single person who owns a gun.

.


We have and always had laws for people committing crimes.

It is illegal to kill with a gun, knife, car, drugs, rocks, sticks, chemicals, torture, a glass bottle, a baseball bat, bear hands, pushing people off the roof, drowning, unleashing a wild animal, paper cuts etc, etc.

bizarre deaths per year

Texting while driving kills 6,000 annually in the U.S. alone
Hippos kill 2,900 people annually in Africa
Autoerotic Asphyxiation Kills 600 people annually
Falling out of bed kills 450 people annually in the U.S
Icicles kill 100 people per year in Russia
Jellyfish kill 20-40 people per year in the Philippines alone
Dogs kill 34 people per year in the U.S.
Ants kill 30 people per year
Vending machines kill 13 people per year
Roller Coasters kill 4 people per year

People die for stupid reasons. Guns being some of them. Falling out of bed others.

Obesity kills 30,000 people annually
Lightning kills 10,000 people annually.

Gun Violence in America

In the United States, 31,224 people die from gun violence each year and 66,768 other people are injured by guns yet survive

reply to post by whatsecret


But the syringe, nor the bleach were designed specifically with ending life.

And yes, all those things make a criminal, but we aren't discussing that now, are we.

reply to post by woogleuk

But the syringe, nor the bleach were designed specifically with ending life.

A syringe was designed specifically to inject substances, they come in many different types, sizes, shapes and color. Some of them are used to inject medicine and some of them are used to end life as punishment or end life of sick/old animals.

A gun was designed to ensure that life continues by hunting for food, or protection against bad people that wish to cause harm. Guns come in many different types, sized, shapes and colors. You can load them with many different types of ammunition. They can be loaded with blanks to produce sound only. Unloaded gun can be used to scare somebody a way, you can squeeze a trigger all you want but without ammunition it is imposible to cause harm.

But if you inject a syringe full of air you with kill that person. Syringes are actually more dangerous than guns. It's not the gun it's what you do with it.

reply to post by whatsecret


My point is though, the other stuff wasn't originally designed to kill.

The gun WAS originally designed to kill (by the Chinese btw).

Lots of inventions are used other than their original purpose, can't take away the original purpose though, can you.

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by whatsecret

 

My point is though, the other stuff wasn't originally designed to kill.

The gun WAS originally designed to kill (by the Chinese btw).

Lots of inventions are used other than their original purpose, can't take away the original purpose though, can you.

I don't see why it even matters what the original design is. A gun made life easier for people who had to hunt for food. Just like a knife made life easier for butchers. Anyway i respectfully disagree.

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by CaptChaos

 

That is a seriously flawed argument, one is unintentional, one is not.

The surgeon/doctor sets out with the intention of saving a life, and things go wrong. The gunman intends to kill right from the start.

EDIT: That plus there is a lot more surgeries performed per year by people who want to save lives than people who go out and kill.

edit on 13/12/12 by woogleuk because: (no reason given)

This does not change the FACT that doctors kill TEN TIMES MORE PEOPLE than guns. The FACT that you are ten times as likely to be killed by a doctor. I guess when he tells you "whoops, I didn't mean it" that makes it ok? Oh, wait, you're dead.

Not to mention the fact that well over half of all people killed by guns are already felons. Just a coincidence. So, if you are not a felon, you are TWENTY TIMES more likely to be killed by a doctor.

And, since they are basically just drug pushers for Big Pharma, their intentions mean nothing. Crack dealers aren't trying to kill their customers, either.

reply to post by whatsecret


I work very, very, very close to where the government employee killed himself in the Federal Building this morning. A lib at work said that they needed to ban guns for the month of December because that is when suicides are the highest in any given month. I said, "Well if you banned guns during December....you need to ban bridges too because people will find another way to make there wants come to fruition." There is no way to stop someone from committing suicide if they truly want to do it. They will not tell anyone. They will just do it like this fellow did. It really is that simple. The gun was the means he chose to end his life. If he didn't have access to a gun, he would have found another way. This is not a gun issue at all.....

reply to post by NoSoup4U

A lib at work said that they needed to ban guns for the month of December because that is when suicides are the highest in any given month

Ask him or her how this can be accomplished. Do people turn their guns in for December or do the cops go door to door and collect guns?

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by whatsecret

 

But the syringe, nor the bleach were designed specifically with ending life.

And yes, all those things make a criminal, but we aren't discussing that now, are we.

The handguns I, my wife, my son, and my daughter carry were specifically designed to end life. They have not, and I pray will not, ever have to be used for their intended purpose. If such a situation arises, I am sure the handguns will perform as needed, and I pray the bullets path is straight and true, stopping whatever threat any of us might face.

Would our use of these handguns constitute criminal activity? No, as long as they are used to protect our lives or the life of an innocent third party. Do others have handguns with the intent to commit criminal activity? Yes, and they will have a handgun regardless of the laws of any country, state, or municipality. There are plenty of laws on the books to prevent criminals from obtaining or owning guns, but still, people search for that perfect law that will end gun violence. Even banning gun ownership is not the answer, since the criminals will ignore such bans, and still have guns.

Until the time arises that owning a gun is no longer necessary for protection, I and my family will still abide by the laws on the books, carrying our guns to protect ourselves and our families, and just maybe you or someone like you, when that one crazy jumps out and starts shooting innocent people. Tell me then how guns in the hands of responsible citizens is not necessary.