Where does the idea that Freemasons worship Lucifer come from??

Bro. Gerard, Bro. "Mirth" and some others have spoken well.

I grow weary of this silly thread. It started out with a legitimate question which would be interesting to discuss...and quickly degenerated. [sigh]

I guess I'll put on my fez and my Knight Masons apron, my KCCH jewel and go attend my Eastern Star meeting now...(they're all the same you know)



[edit on 24-10-2004 by senrak]

Originally posted by senrak
Bro. Gerard, Bro. "Mirth" and some others have spoken well.

I grow weary of this silly thread. It started out with a legitimate question which would be interesting to discuss...and quickly degenerated. [sigh]

I guess I'll put on my fez and my Knight Masons apron, my KCCH jewel and go attend my Eastern Star meeting now...(they're all the same you know)

[edit on 24-10-2004 by senrak]

I think that I will wear my PM's apron, PZs Apron, PWCN'S Apron, KT, S mantle, RCC sash. As we have been told they are all the same( surely some mistake).

Thanks for the nice comment Bro. Senrak

We already know that masons use symbols to represent pagan dieties. What is your point?

the Pentagram has been and may still be used in christianity. for many years
it was used as a symbol of protection ( still is by many), and when the church
couldnt convince the people it was evil they(the church)stole it and converted it to their use saying that the 5 points represented the 5 wounds of jesus, either
hands,feet and head or hands, feet, and side. for others the points are the 4
elementals and the spirit.

let us not forget also that to many the pentagram symbolizes ultamate perfection. every part of it reflects the Golden Proportion, that same proportion found through out all creation in many forms

[edit on 24-10-2004 by stalkingwolf]

He has already acknowledged that it is the Shrine headquarters, and was mistaken, but hurridly pointed out that, in his opinion, Shrine and masonry are so closely intertwined, in the mind of those that are NOT MASONS, that they must, in fact, really be one and the same...

He is looking for a one world headquarters body of masonry, but, as all masons know, there is no such thing. In the US alone, there are 53 regular Grand Lodges, if one does not consider the Prince Hall Grand Lodges, which most US grand lodges now recognize, which adds another 50 or 60 regular grand lodges to the list IN THE UNITED STATES ALONE.

Now, it is true that in the 1780's, George Washington was approached about forming a Grand Lodge of the United States, with himself as the Supreme Grand Master, but he rejected the idea out of hand as being, imagine this, UNMASONIC in nature. So, each grand lodge is a corporate entity on its own, supreme in its own jurisdiction, answering to none but the members OF the Grand Lodge.

Some folks, not knowing any better, and being ignorant of the facts, MAKE UP FACTS... defcon5 seems to be just one of those. And, when caught out on his ignorance, chooses to bluster and use words that do not exist... pseudopigraphical for instance. I looked in my Merriam-Webster Unabridged edition, and guess what... no such word. He would have been better off sticking with the real word: deuterocanonical, than in making up a word to show his "education"...

Lets stick with the facts, here, shall we? Just for a change.

Masonry is a fraternity of RELIGIOUS MEN. Not a religion. It does not address the nature of g-d, a means of attaining salvation, a means for approaching or addressing the throne of grace, or a theological manner of life. What masonry DOES DO is seek a way for men of all religions to work together, as brothers with a common goal, without conflict, seeking that which unites rather than, as many evangelicals seem to do, that which divides and separates.

Masonry teaches great moral truths, seeking to make masons better men through the inculcation of those lessons; Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Truth, Honor, Faith, Hope, Charity, Brotherly Love, Relief and much much more. How can any right thinking person abjure and call evil a group of men that seek to be better, more serviceable men for their country, their g-d, their familes, their communities and themselves?

Hate, from folks that claim the mantle of Christian, is a strange and bizzare thing to witness, and frankly, the more hate and spite, frauds, lies and vituperation I witness from so called Christians, the more sure I am in my choice of being a mason... and the more sure I am that on judgment day, when there "christians" stand before g-d to answer for their lies told in HIS NAME, the more sure I am that my choice of association with the good and honorable men of this fraternity is right.

It is a sad sad day when you get flamed for answering a question.

just to clear up a few misconceptions before I leave this thread alone (as clearly any answer to the question upsets some masons).

Just out of curiosity though... Why ask a question if you do not want to hear the answers? Bizarre

Yet again, another load of tripe posted by a puffed up Bible-basher. The ironic thing is that most of these so-called Christians walk all over their religion when making such criticisms. You just have to laugh at the way in which they always pick the Biblical quotations that condemn people who they think don't agree with their own point of view. You never see the quotations like "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself". The Christian message of Love, Forgiveness and not Judging goes right out the window in the rush to condemn others. And let's not even contend the fact that your whole argument is flawed anyway, shall we?

If the biblical passage that I quoted hit a nerve, I am really not that sorry. The purpose of scripture is to lead you to the truth and sometimes it hurts. This passage is not an attack personally but a commentary.

I personally am not judging any 'individuals' on this board, just examining and answering the question. I agree 100% with "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself". Possibly another verse you could quote is 'For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God'. This obviously means that all humans sin (yes including Christians). I have never claimed in any posts that I am perfect, and I have never claimed that all masons will be judged guilty, however the Bible is quite clear when Jesus said 'I am the way the truth and the life, for no one comes to the father except through me�

Yet again, another load of tripe posted by a puffed up Bible-basher.

Who is doing the judging???

The ironic thing is that most of these so-called Christians walk all over their religion when making such criticisms.

Can you be any more generalistic in your generalisation?

The Christian message of Love, Forgiveness and not Judging goes right out the window in the rush to condemn others.

I do not hate anybody, and believe me, your comments are water off a ducks back. So I forgive you already

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

My intention was not to personally attack you. I'm sorry my reply to the question had that impact on you.

Just because Freemasonry requires a belief in a Supreme Being, it is a religion? Where do you get that twisted logic from? If my parents instilled a belief in God in me from birth, it doesn't mean that they are the religion.

If you looked up the definition of religion in the dictionary it says: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."

Tell me how freemasonry contradicts this?

Freemasonry is pagan? No more than Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Paganism is the root of the religions. If you're classifying Freemasonry as a religion then it would be no different and therefore no more or less open to condemnation.

You may want to add 'in my opinion' as you certainly can not back that up with any solid, credible evidence.

Lucifer is Satan? Read the Bible - you'll find that you are wrong yet again. He was a Babylonian prince. The only reason that Freemasonry gets wrongly tied in with Lucifer is because of a spelling error in the Bible.

Now the authenticity of the Bible is flawed (including spelling errors). Why do you let people into your organisation who believe in such an obviously flawed religion? I would be interested in reading some more literature on this. Can you send me some links?

And there is yet another massive flaw in your argument. Freemasons do not serve "two masters".

Read my post, I never said they did.

If I'm a Christian Freemason, I worship a Christian god. I don't follow the Islamic god and I'm not forced to acknowledge him. All that is asked of me is that I respect the other man's right to believe what he wants. Of course, fundamentalist Christians don't want that. They want to shove their religion down your throat and force you to accept their doctrine - however flawed it may be. By quoting those scary Bible passages they believe that they can justify their creed through threats and fear.

I don�t preach a fear doctrine. Never once did I say you would burn in Hell and yada yada yada. The rest of what you say is just a personal rant.

That's about as far away from being Christian as dog is to solid gold. Take a look in the mirror. When you use fear as a weapon to force others to follow your religion, which master are you yourself really following?

I took a look in the mirror this morning actually. I do not force anyone to do what they do not want to do. I am a strong believer in free choice. I can tell people what I believe but I would hardly call that 'FORCE'.

Notice that it is only the fundamentalist Christians complaining on these boards

What other Christian should I be??? One that doesn�t accept what the bible teaches? One with no absolute truths? One that fits more inline with what you believe? I would hardly call what I said 'complaining'. But I can understand why you would be defensive, as obviously what I said questioned something that you believe in a lot.

As if they are the only religion in existence. Apologies, Christians, for your God stands side-by-side, wth Siddhartha Gautama - the enlightened Buddha, with the Shinto deities, with the Taost Ascended Masters, with the Hindu Gods (from Shiva to Kali, to Vishnu to all the others), also beside Allah - blessed be His name, and so on . . . .

To any new age person, ignorant of the message of the Bible, that would certainly be the case.

And no, not all of these religions recognize Jesus or the Christian God as particularly important - nor is Jesus the "gateway' to salvation for all of these religions. In fact, Hindus wonder how a so called "divine" being can sink to the level of man, and how ignoble it is for a so called "divine" son of a God to be killed by man. The drama is there, of course, but many Hindus do not view such a being as worthy of worship.

Yup. Still doesn�t change the fact there is only one truth.

I am glad that Christian fundamentalists believe in the strength and wisdom of their religion - an excellent thing, and a bastion of strength and comfort in these trying times.. But do not believe to the exclusion and ignorance of others, and do not speak of your faith as if it is the "true" faith that plunges all others into oblivion.

The God I worship takes into account for human ignorance and judge�s people on what they 'know'. Would God be a God of love if people were found guilty of not believing if they had never heard or read the Christian message before? Hardly. The verse 'Judge not or you will be judged' as posted above is a perfect example of why Christians (or anybody) should never judge individuals, it isn�t our role.

Hate, from folks that claim the mantle of Christian, is a strange and bizarre thing to witness, and frankly, the more hate and spite, frauds, lies and vituperation I witness from so called Christians, the more sure I am in my choice of being a mason... and the more sure I am that on judgment day, when there "Christians" stand before g-d to answer for their lies told in HIS NAME, the more sure I am that my choice of association with the good and honourable men of this fraternity is right.

The message that you portray here is very true. A lot of Christians are full of hate and intolerance. On the same note, I could generalise and say a lot of people on earth irrespective of what organisation they belong to can fall into this category, including masons. What is important is we have a clear conscious on the day of judgement as you so once again aptly pointed out.

Well, good on you.

As a mason, I am tired of all the judgmentalism from folks that have not a clue. I do not recall you asking any questions, except in the same sense of the old, tired: "Do you still beat your wife?" manner.

Your questions accused, and we have replied to show you where we think you are wrong. You cannot accept that, and that is really ok with us. It is not my purpose here to convert you to any faith, or away from any belief. For myself, you could rub blue mud in your belly and dance naked under the light of the full moon for all I care.

What I DO care about is when my fraternity is slandered and defamed by the ignorant and hateful. You appear to fit that bill. If you do not, you might want to consider changing your approach, since I am not the only one that sees your approach in this manner.

As for masonry being a religion, it cannot be, as it has no dogma, no manner of approach to the deity, no lessons on salvation, nothing on the nature of g-d... masonry teaches us to act and live a moral and upright life, AND to maintain our relations with our own churches/faiths. It does not ask us what church we attend, if we attend, or how we approach g-d.

Therefore, in the strictest sense, masonry is not a religion. Also, since NO MASON considers masonry a religion or a replacement for a church, YOUR interpretation of masonry in this regard is WITHOUT VALUE. But thanks for offering your opinion anyway.

And, really, thanks for playing.

Deleted duplicate posting

[edit on 10/24/04 by theron dunn]

Yup. Still doesn�t change the fact there is only one truth.

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
Annie Dillard

Originally posted by shmick25

There's no substance to your reply. Although it reads well, it's either off subject or doesn't answer the points bought up.

If the biblical passage that I quoted hit a nerve, I am really not that sorry. The purpose of scripture is to lead you to the truth and sometimes it hurts. This passage is not an attack personally but a commentary.

The passage is a political commentary taken and used out of context.

I have never claimed in any posts that I am perfect, and I have never claimed that all masons will be judged guilty, however the Bible is quite clear when Jesus said 'I am the way the truth and the life, for no one comes to the father except through me?

The Bible is not clear on this subject. There is an argument as to wether Jesus merely meant "believe in me" or if he meant "be like me". We've discussed this in full elsewhere on ATS.

Can you be any more generalistic in your generalisation?

Wordplay. It was pretty obvious what I meant.

I do not hate anybody, and believe me, your comments are water off a ducks back. So I forgive you already

I didn't accuse you of hating me. Thanks for the forgiveness though.

My intention was not to personally attack you. I'm sorry my reply to the question had that impact on you.

I wasn't replying to a question. I was replying to a statement that was made in ignorance.

If you looked up the definition of religion in the dictionary it says: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."
Tell me how freemasonry contradicts this?

You mislead with the definition. It has nothing to do with Freemasonry. Freemasons believe in their own gods. Freemasonry doesn't force them to worship nor does it force them to change. Freemasons have a choice. Religion is a set down doctrine applied to worship. Freemasonry is not. Could it get any clearer?

You may want to add 'in my opinion' as you certainly can not back that up with any solid, credible evidence.

I certainly can and I certainly have. I've spent quite some time writing about the pagan origins of religion here on ATS. Go use the Search function. Paganism played a massive part in the creation of the big 3. Denial is useless. I don't add "in my opinion" as the statement is also the opinion of anyone who knows anything about historical theology.

Now the authenticity of the Bible is flawed (including spelling errors). Why do you let people into your organisation who believe in such an obviously flawed religion?

I would be interested in reading some more literature on this. Can you send me some links?

Freemasonry is not a religion. Why should somebody therefore be dictated to over their personal beliefs?

I don?t preach a fear doctrine. Never once did I say you would burn in Hell and yada yada yada. The rest of what you say is just a personal rant.

Firstly I don't reckon that there was anything that you quoted that was a personal rant - merely a reply pointing out your innaccuracy. Secondly, the Bible passage that you used to back up your argument expresses damnation on those who don't follow your path. Although you may not have explicitly stated that people would burn in hell, the inference was certainly there and plain for all to see.

I took a look in the mirror this morning actually. I do not force anyone to do what they do not want to do. I am a strong believer in free choice. I can tell people what I believe but I would hardly call that 'FORCE'.

So you wouldn't call posting Bible passages stating that everyone who doesn't follow your doctrine is evil as trying to force others to comply? Especially when being evil is equated with going to hell? Why post them then?

What other Christian should I be??? One that doesn?t accept what the bible teaches? One with no absolute truths? One that fits more inline with what you believe? I would hardly call what I said 'complaining'. But I can understand why you would be defensive, as obviously what I said questioned something that you believe in a lot.

Gotta love this one. You've already stated that you know that the Bible is flawed and now in your argument you are reverting and running to that "flawed" book. Nobody is suggesting that you shouldn't believe in the Bible though. What they are suggesting is that you don't ram it down others throats - especially as it is flawed as you so admit.

Now don't get me wrong. You seem to have a delicate constitution (oops judgement).... this is not a flame. I'm merely pointing out that your words can be analysed and understood to warrant such a reply.
What it is, is a reply to innaccurate accusations that are backed up with dubious Biblical texts that express horror at others having a different opinion to yourself.

Some of my relatives sertainly don't worship satan, they might do other "strange" things but nothing to do with satan. All this conspiracy stuff around free masonry is just people wasting their time trying to fing something that isn't there. No offence but some people just now nothing about what they talk and don't even't want to know. Remember [size=30]DENY IGNORANCE!!!

Have nice day

[edit on 25-10-2004 by TheDarkFlame]

Originally posted by senrak

Your first error (ahem...lie) Masons do not do not DO NOT solicit membership. A man has to ask a Mason to join. We do not ask him.

uhh.. i was never asked to join.. but this one fella that i met once (i noticed the shriner symbol on his shirt) looked me straight in the eye after about 5 minutes of casual conversation about the order and tried to pull a "Jedi" on me.. looked me right in the eye and said "Join us".. does that count? (on a side note.. my employer [i was at work at the time] about dropped one in his trousers, he was standing just a few feet away and totally agreed that this fellow tried to jedi me)

let me say that i was honored that he would do this. i know it is a taboo to ask someone to join the order.. and in a sense i wasnt asked, but told, but with regard to "soliciting" someone to join.. it is really the same thing

Becon of Light, you're replying to a year-old thread.

Originally posted by Becon of Light
uhh.. i was never asked to join.. but this one fella that i met once (i noticed the shriner symbol on his shirt) looked me straight in the eye after about 5 minutes of casual conversation about the order and tried to pull a "Jedi" on me.. looked me right in the eye and said "Join us".. does that count? (on a side note.. my employer [i was at work at the time] about dropped one in his trousers, he was standing just a few feet away and totally agreed that this fellow tried to jedi me)

let me say that i was honored that he would do this. i know it is a taboo to ask someone to join the order.. and in a sense i wasnt asked, but told, but with regard to "soliciting" someone to join.. it is really the same thing

Becon apparently it is a rule of the masons that they are not supposed to ask anyone to join, however this is not a perfect world and some obviously do. It was done to me personally multiple times, by both friends and future relatives, as I stated in this thread over a year ago. I have also since then heard the masons on this board tell stories of families that put some pretty heavy pressure on their kin to make them join, almost to the point of what I would call being forced to join. This is all understandable and I can see where this could happen in any organization in which family members want to pass on their linage with other family members.

Though I wrote what I said here over a year ago, some things have changed and some have not. I see that there is a fine line here that the masons do not want to cross and where many tend to become insulted over the entire Satan/Lucifer issue. It is known that as a mason you believe in the divine architect, the eastern light, the acquiring of knowledge, etc. It has been admitted by other masons that masonry is related to the OTO, Thermeticism, Gnosticism, and Cabala. That many of its aspects are of Pagan origin, but they deny it’s a religion, and therefore that it has a god.

The thing that I have had a great deal of difficulty with trying to express is that there are certain deities of pagan origins, that have come down through time, and though their names have changed and the names of their religions, you can track them by looking at their symbolism.

For example: Ishtar, Inanna, Astarte (Where Easter comes from), Ashtart (Ashtart was also identified with the goddess Sekhmet but seemingly more often conflated, at least in part, with Isis to judge from the many images found of ‘Ashtart suckling a small child), Anunit, Atarsamain, Isis, Venus, and Aphrodite are in fact the same deity handed down through history. The most common thread to this deity is the name "the Queen of Heaven", a term used now by the Roman Catholic Church in identifying Mary and even some of the most famous statues of Mary with child are actually statues of Isis...

Similarly there is a central theme to masonry that can be tracked through its symbolism, and which does appear in Cabala. So how can you blame Christians for following this imagery to its final conclusion, regardless of how much the Masons scream that those Christians are full of ignorance and hatered. If that symbolism is so unimportant anyway, and it causes so much strife to the masons, then would not the logical step be to throw it out?

That is unless it truly is important to masonry, the message of masonry, and it’s not just doing fun/silly stuff to be part of a fraternity.

Through Masons deny that Luciferianism existed as a religion prior to the 1900’s, the deity that is related to it has, and existed back to at least the days of cabala (truthfully since the beginnings of man), which is where (Cabala) much of their symbolism admittedly (by them in other threads) comes from. I suggest tracking down whose Realm is the East, the planet Venus, the colors blue, silver and white, who’s realm is the air (the blue silver and white), whose wife is symbolized by the Owl (such as the one sitting on top of the Masonic square and compass around the mall in Washington DC); and there is little denying that there is a central deity to masonry even if the average modern day member is unaware of it. You can look this stuff up through occult sites, Cabal site, and historical sites, without ever having to end up on a site such as masonwatch.org, or whatever site they are always screaming about...

I am also not saying that there is a higher level of masons, but at some point there were founders, they might have been the ones that interjected this stuff, knowing that they would get their point across, but the true meaning would be lost over time, and therefore be plausibly deniable by the average dues paying Joe. Making the masons a teaching tool, an area where you learn the basics, then those that have the aptitude and the initiative to do so can go on to another organization such as the Thermetic Order of the OTO (which is a religion, and from what I can tell of it is similar to Cabala, in its summoning of Angles, Demons, and Deities to perform magic), others that look on it only as a fraternity for guys can go on to an organization such as the Shiners, etc…



Well I must admit its been fun revisiting this thread after all this time, and seeing where I have changed some of my views, and modified some, where I have learned things from the masons here and the members of the OTO. Yet seeing where some views are centrally still the same. It has been an educational experience.



[edit on 10/17/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by defcon5
Becon apparently it is a rule of the masons that they are not supposed to ask anyone to join, however this is not a perfect world and some obviously do. It was done to me personally multiple times


[edit on 10/17/2005 by defcon5]

Yes i am aware of it being the rule, i was merely being humorous.. although the part about the mason pulling a jedi mind trick on me when he said "Join us" was very much the truth, and while none have ever said "Hey.. why dont you come and meet the guys at the lodge.. see if you it's for you", i have recived more then one "You should think about it.. it is the greatest decision i ever made"

As to the rule.. it isnt so much that they arent allowed to ask someone to join if they honestly think that the person is worthy (although many here will claim otherwise), but they dont make a practice of being "Door to Door" masons.. meaning they dont go knocking on doors saying "Hello.. do you have a moment to talk about freemasonry?"

now before any mason here blows a ring seal or anything, this is basicly what i have read on another site, an accual mason's site (sorry i dont remember the site.. it was along time ago and i visit alot of masonic sites). i have also been told the same from masons i have met

defcon5,

Holding to dubious assertion and popular opinion is not a realiable way to go about discovering axiomatic or fundamental truths. If you are sincerely desirous of knowing then you must come to, "Know Thyself."

An ancient Kensei maxim states:

The real light can only be found within and only by dissolving the outward streaming forth of the mind, energy and ambition. The inner light is not separate from the light without, but must be experienced first of all within, before the chameleon-like mind projects itself out into the sphere of the rolling mirror.

I will briefly explain the symbolism as it has meaning to me. You, however, should only use it as guide until such time as you can understand the symbolism yourself. Hopefully, the result of personal, credible, multi-source study.

Light as used above, approximates Spiritual Light

Streaming forth of the mind denotes the phenomenal deluge of sensory and mnemonic experience which distracts the singularity of focus found in the stillness of being.

Chameleon, here, represents the multitudinous nature of the mind and its propensity to take on and emulate the characteristics of the natural world. It is an aspect of the ego- denoting adaptation.

The Rolling Mirror, refers to the cyclic quality of nature; life.


There is only one truth, one light from which all else stems and all shall, inevitably, return. I hope this was of some help to you.


Peace

Because originally Freemasonry is a branch of the Catholic Gnostic Church.

The teaching of Esoteric Christianity is that Lucifer is Christ, the Brightest Angel in Heaven, the Light that burst forth from the Dark Absolute, the Omeyocan where "only the wind and the darkness exist" in which the Super Divine Ain Soph Atoms are suspended(H.H. the Dalai Lama makes a reference to these Atoms in one of his books).

But in us, Lucifer is fallen; the Light is trapped within the Legion of egos(Satan) we carry within, because of the "fall of Adam" which was when(in Ancient Lemuria) people fornicated, and we were expelled from Eden for doing so.

So we have our Internal Lucifer trapped in the Ninth Sphere as Satan.

"He", the Light of Consciousness, the root of our Buddha Nature, is trapped in the ego.

"The Light Shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not."

Fortunately, it is taught, that the average humanoid has 3% of free-Consciousness availible that can be used to comprehend the egos, or the rest of the trapped Consciousness.

The sub, un, and infra-conscious must be made into Consciousness, because in our current state we are nothing but mechanical puppets, moved by the mechanical forces of the lower aspect of nature.


By performing this work, the Great Work, we can convert our inner Satan-Lucifer back to Christus-Lucifer.

All this is possible with the help of our Divine Mother and the Intimate Solar Christ.



See this: The Nature of Beings?

This: Crowley, what is so bad?

And this: Lucifer: Details








[edit on 25-8-2006 by Tamahu]

lucum per lucerna


What you, and whoever you quoted are discussing, seems to be best explained by the Dzogchen of Tibet and Zhang Zhung(and also the modern Gnostic movement).

This thread contains the best works on the subject, if you're interested.


By the way, is that a symbol of the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor in your avatar?

[edit on 25-8-2006 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Tamahu:

What you, and whoever you quoted are discussing, seems to be best explained by the Dzogchen of Tibet and Zhang Zhung(and also the modern Gnostic movement).

I am not familiar with Dzogchen or the Zhang Zhung, but would not be suprised by any philosophical similarities.

The word Kensei literally means Saint of the Sword. It is an ancient Japanese designation denoting the path the Kengo must undertake in order to achieve Transcendant Swordsmanship and thus, perfection.

It teaches a very high degree of moral virtue which is necessary in order to cultivate a pure and objective, spiritual consciousness. Miyamoto Musashi, a Kensei of great renown writes,

Aspire to be like Mt. Fuji, with such a broad and solid foundation that the strongest earthquake cannot move you, and so tall that the greatest enterprises of common men seem insignificant from your lofty perspective. With your mind as high as Mt Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things happening near to you.

The spirituality of the Kensei can be seen accurately, in the following [snip] from the movie, Hero.

In the first state, man and sword become one and each other. Here, even a blade of grass can be used as a lethal weapon. In the next stage, the sword resides not in the hand but in the heart. Even without a weapon, the warrior can slay his enemy from a hundred paces. But the ultimate ideal is when the sword disappears altogether. The warrior embraces all around him. The desire to kill no longer exists. Only peace remains.

Originally posted by Tamahu:

This thread contains the best works on the subject, if you're interested.

I will take a look at it friend, thank you.

Originally posted by Tamahu:By the way, is that a symbol of the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor in your avatar?

Yes.


With regard to the thread title:

H.P.B. TheSecret Doctrine:

The Zohar speaks of "Black Fire," which is Absolute Light-Wisdom. To those who, prompted by old theological prejudice, may say: "But the Asuras are the rebel Devas, the opponents of the Gods -- hence devils, and the spirits of Evil," it is answered: Esoteric philosophy admits neither good nor evil per se, as existing independently in nature. The cause for both is found, as regards the Kosmos, in the necessity of contraries or contrasts, and with respect to man, in his human nature, his ignorance and passions. There is no devil or the utterly depraved, as there are no Angels absolutely perfect, though there may be spirits of Light and of Darkness; thus LUCIFER -- the spirit of Intellectual Enlightenment and Freedom of Thought -- is metaphorically the guiding beacon, which helps man to find his way through the rocks and sandbanks of Life, for Lucifer is the LOGOS in his highest, and the "Adversary" in his lowest aspect -- both of which are reflected in our Ego. Lactantius, speaking of the Nature of Christ, makes the LOGOS, the Word, the first-born brother of Satan, the "first of all creatures." (Inst. div. Book II., c. viii., "Qabbalah," 116.)

[edit on 25-8-2006 by lucum per lucerna]

Thank you for that quote from Miyamoto Musashi.

Is it from his Go Rin No Sho?

I'd like to study the Go Rin No Sho along with Musashi's Zen Master, Takuan Soho's The Unfettered Mind

Eiji Yoshikawa's book "Musashi" is my favorite novel too(though I haven't read many novels).

(Hero is one of my favorite movies as well, along with Crouching Tiger..., Fist of Legend, Shaolin Masta-Killa and Iron Monkey)


Have you studied any of the Chinese Chan Master's works, or the works of Taisen Deshimaru, Shunryu Suzuki, Dogen or Eisai?

They are certainly recommended.


Speaking of which:






"You have to give your life full attention as if your hair were on fire." -Taisen Deshimaru










[edit on 28-8-2006 by Tamahu]

Tamahu Good answer regarding why the Luciferian association.

What was Osbert referring to when he said he couldn't access your replies on the Sacred Knowledge thread and what did he mean by the "Majestic light Monopoly"?

Also I would like to take a moment to express a block I have. Since Mdme Blavatsky is associated with Lucis Trust and LT has a chapel in the UN building I am skeptical regarding such teachings. I like reading the philosophical content but intuitionally I back off from such teachings. Why the fear of the "Great White Brotherhood", why the reluctance to join any organized system? Is it conditioned, the fear, or God inspired?

Same with the Pan image, it all sounds good and fine, then he enters the picture and I change course.

Insight appreciated.