Outrage after popular students are found murdered in man's basement after 'they robbed his home on

reply to post by Golf66


Good points, and honestly the savage remark was overkill in my frustration with this one particular story...

My broader point is that killing the intruder should be avoided if at all possible.

ETA: I respect anyone's right to act as they see fit in the case of a home invasion

reply to post by Osiris1953

No he sure didn't. I see what you're getting at, but this whole story is just fishy.

Fishy or a "you couldn't make this stuff up" situation...

We'll see how this develops, but really the old man did seem to go too far. If I end up being wrong then so be it.

Yeah same goes here, I will just side with the guy who is at home first... If later I find out he lured them there or dragged them there then I would 180 my opinion...

As it stands the whole situation is more than suspicious, and if he is found not guilty of second degree murder, I will hold no ill will towards this man..... Either way, this situation is quite disturbing.

Most definitely disturbing... I'm sure the guy didn't ask for it and it did mention there had been other break ins which probably made him even angrier... So far I see it as they burgled the wrong guy probably thinking he was a soft touch or something... It's too bad for them...

So, shows how good a judge of morals the people who are raising this outrage are. The students were theives breaking into someones home. I don't care how popular they were, they were criminals. They shouldn't have been in that guys home trying to steal his stuff. I'd shoot them too, who knows if they had a gun on them. I think they got what they deserve, let it be a lesson to others not to break into peoples homes to steal their stuff.

reply to post by mee30


If everything he has said is true, I stand by him as well.... I'm just unconvinced. Not calling the police is really what sends up the red flag for me. I too would be afraid of being sent to jail for defending myself but that fear would be far outweighed by the horror of having dead bodies that I had killed in my house with me. That horror coupled with the realization that things would only get worse for me the longer I were to wait would compel me to call the police immediately.

I just don't get it, and I hope more information is released soon. This is one instance where I will just have to have some faith that the legal system will suss it all out.

Popular students could mean anything. Drug pushers = cheerleaders, oxycontin dealers, foot ball players, steriod dealers, etc. A 60+ old man with probably some cash?? LOL...love the oxymoronic views in this thread.

Dont give the kids that much credit. What, they thought it was there house?? LOL...cuz they were jacked up on something?? Pleaazzzze.

reply to post by Osiris1953
I am sure the call police for him was a tough decisions considering his dilemma. He just shot the two most popular kids in school. Or, he shot two kids in general. Or, he shot two people. But, he shot them for a reason. Thats the point.

Originally posted by hoochymama
Popular students could mean anything.

You have a point there, in my experience the popular kids are usually the worst people in any given school. So it certainly could mean just about anything.

Originally posted by sepermeru
I don't believe they broke into his house. I believe that it was a family visit -- I believe one of them was his cousin -- for the holiday that went horribly wrong because this man is clearly mentally ill. Massive overkill and self-defense are not the same, the whole bit about the girl "laughing" at him after already having been shot s just freaking creepy and suspicious, and the fact that he hid the bodies so as not to bother the police on Thanksgiving? I can't believe anybody is taking this guy's story at face value.

I can believe people are having a great time being internet tough guys at the merest hint of a chance, though. That part definitely rings true.

Something about this 'story' isn't quite right.
His house seems rundown, so why would they need
to break a window to get in ?
Wouldn't burglars just kick-in the flimsy door rather than
risk getting cutup by broken glass ?
Would they not have knocked on the door first to
see if anyone was home, before breaking in ?
Breaking windows seems more of a harassment tactic,
. . . or a cover-up.
But then, having his home broken in so many times,
it would be only natural for the old guy to be paranoid etc.

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reply to post by magma
If these two kids were his kin or invited to a "Thanksgiving" event than I retract my statements. Until then, he deserved the right to defend what is his.

I would not say the kids deserved to die....I'm not an animal. But it was a mighty boneheaded move, and then laughing at the old guy that just tried to kill you....not very smart on their part either.

Originally posted by ToneDeaf
Something about this 'story' isn't quite right.
His house seems rundown, so why would they need
to break a window to get in?

The story also says that he shot the guy first and dragged his body, so the girl must have heard the shots coming from the basement. So what does she do? Goes into the basement. Highly unlikely.

reply to post by Osiris1953

If everything he has said is true, I stand by him as well.... I'm just unconvinced. Not calling the police is really what sends up the red flag for me. I too would be afraid of being sent to jail for defending myself but that fear would be far outweighed by the horror of having dead bodies that I had killed in my house with me. That horror coupled with the realization that things would only get worse for me the longer I were to wait would compel me to call the police immediately.

Totally agree with you, I don't justify him not calling the police immediately afterwards but I can see why he didn't and was scared... Then as you say the longer you leave it the harder it is... I would bet on the fact he was experiencing some sort of PTSD...

I just don't get it, and I hope more information is released soon. This is one instance where I will just have to have some faith that the legal system will suss it all out.

Yes, but do we really know how we would act if it really happened? I'm sure it will all come out in the wash eventually and if I am wrong I would freely admit it.

reply to post by Osiris1953
Whats his background?? Is the old man military?? Is he sane?? There are many questions but to automatically start a "Facebook" for some crazy kids or vice versa is crazy in itself. The facts need to play itself out until some had any "Im on the teen side" "Im on the old mans side (gun control)".

Our World is Crazy!!!! Even in this thread.

I was going to let this go, because I find sentence-level parsing too tedious to bother with, but then I remembered that I'm down for whatever. So if you wanna go, let's go. Seeing as how this thread is all about slamming our...clubs on the table anyhow.

Originally posted by mee30You believe, but the police don't know?

The article contains quotations from the killer's statement, not from the police. It's the press telling you these things, not the police. The only comment from anyone official in the article I saw is this:

A prosecutor at Morrison County District Court on Monday morning called Smith's reaction 'appalling'.
'Mr. Smith intentionally killed two teenagers in his home in a matter that goes well beyond self-defense,' Morrison County Attorney Brian Middendorf said at the hearing.

Wow, you must be good at psychology huh?

Yes, I am. Which is why I know that it's impossible to diagnose someone without meeting them, and kept my comment general as a matter of my opinion, not an attempt at an official analysis of his mental health.

Yeah I just think he was scared witless and no doubt in shock... Maybe even PTSD?

You know, like you did right there.

Now look if the facts change later on to show that they didn't break in etc then my opinions would 180 obviously...

Cool. Me too.

But as it stands right now the police do not dispute the fact that they broke in looking for drugs...

They neither confirm nor deny it. They have no comment on it. The press just quoted the killer's statement, not any official story.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by Golf66

 

Good points, and honestly the savage remark was overkill in my frustration with this one particular story...

I understand that given your past experience this might be more personal for you. No harm no foul.

This is personal to me as well as a friend of mine lost his career and went broke (losing his marriage later) for shooting an intruder in NC. The 16 year old kid was high as a kite and unarmed and he shot him in the head. Just as one would expect a SF operator to do under duress.

He got off on criminal charges but was sued in civil court for damages. The family's lawyer used his Special Forces training against him. Lost his career and has to pay a huge settlement for protecting his family in the night and reacting just as he was taught. The lawyer said he didn’t have to shoot a headshot and did so with malice and out of racial prejudice. In Fayetteville, NC with an all black jury the redneck from Ashville SF operator lost...who'd have seen that coming?

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
My broader point is that killing the intruder should be avoided if at all possible.

The problem with this is that a wounded man can shoot back and in most cases is still a threat. Perhaps in some cases more so than he originally was. No self defense or home defensive pistol shooting course will teach you anything other than a center mass approach to targeting because of that reason.

The average person hasn't the ability or experience (nor should they have to bear that responsibility) to make a debilitating but non-lethal shot. Not even LEO's have to meet that standard.

Personally, I will in the end likely just be in auto mode with my shot placement (one round head two to the chest) and I realize that my past experience could be used against me by a savvy prosecutor with an axe to grind or civil litigator after the fact. One could argue I have the combat experience and expertise to properly assess the situation regardless of the law. I'll just have to go with it because I won't hesitate to protect my family.

Cheers – I wasn’t the most law abiding of kids either and am lucky the Army’s standards were at one time not so stringent regarding past criminal activity. If I had the same legal issues in today's culture and tried to enlist today as opposed to the standards in the mid-eighties, I might never have gotten in. Had that happened I’d likely be just like all my cousins in and out of jail.

I am cool with second chances (glad you got yours) – my life is one too.

However, I don’t think I have the charity in me to presume to risk my family’s safety should someone get in the house.

Thankfully this prospect is most unlikely given our location and our cattle dogs. I get a very vigorous warning when anyone even comes up the road to our house and that is a half mile from the gavel road. The nearest blacktop is several miles away.

I didn't read the whole thread yet..

was this posted?

www.startribune.com...

With his house being robbed eight times in one year I could see why he was angry, I say he should have just shot them in both there legs and then called the cops

reply to post by sepermeru

I was going to let this go, because I find sentence-level parsing too tedious to bother with, but then I remembered that I'm down for whatever. So if you wanna go, let's go. Seeing as how this thread is all about slamming our...clubs on the table anyhow.

What? LOL... I just choose to give benefit of the doubt to the home owner... IF they broke in then they got what was coming... If they went around robbing people then it was inevitable...

The article contains quotations from the killer's statement, not from the police. It's the press telling you these things, not the police. The only comment from anyone official in the article I saw is this:

And this?

"When police arrived at his home after reports of suspicious activity, Smith, 64, confessed to shooting the teenagers repeatedly and stashing their bodies after they broke into his home, authorities said."

And this?

"On Monday, he was charged with second-degree murder and police revealed he told them he fired more shots than necessary after his gun jammed and Kifer laughed at him."

Also let me add what the lads sister said...

"She added that her cousin, who had undergone treatment for substance abuse, could have been after pills from the home." So even she believed the burglary part no?

All throughout the article they seem to have a problem with the use of force. I don't..

Yes, I am. Which is why I know that it's impossible to diagnose someone without meeting them, and kept my comment general as a matter of my opinion, not an attempt at an official analysis of his mental health.

Yes I have my opinions too..

You know, like you did right there.

Quite possible isn't it?

Cool. Me too.

Sweet...

They neither confirm nor deny it. They have no comment on it. The press just quoted the killer's statement, not any official story.

And the lads sister and girls cousin (one in the same)... Why leave that out?

My bottom line is if they broke in then they got what they deserve, even a relative wasn't surprised by the possible break in...

Anyway you'll have to bang clubs with someone else now as my bed is calling me... night night

Why were these two people at his house in the first place?? Are they related?? Are they Kin?? Thats the point. If this wasn't the case, case shut and closed. Other wise, this is some parent making an excuse for the Kids "making a mistake" and the Perp shooting for no reason.

If these two have no relation (aka mistake) than its justified. No ends or buts.

reply to post by mee30
In this case, shoot first, second, and third. When the fourth one hit than "ohhh well" they had it comming. I am sure if they were in there right mind they would of left.

Hopefully the old man gets off with a slap on the wrist.