Why don't you believe? (@Non-Believers and Skeptics)

Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by LoveisanArt

Originally posted by Druscilla

Two words:

Empirical Evidence

Show us some Empirical data that any of this stuff is true, and we'll happily line up.

DO you have empirical evidence of the potential of your mind?

..

I dont think you do.

Actually, yes, I do.
I've thoroughly attended University, launched a successful professional career, and occupy myself with a sundry variety of wonderful pursuits, projects, and interests to fill my time, all to my full potential, and if you have NOT done so yourself, then, I'm quite certain your position regarding 'full potential' is well founded in consideration of lack of 12+ years of University, and all that follows.

Further, periodic IQ testing, as well as personal/professional research/work on developing a more accurate applied model covering aspects and attributes not currently covered in the model for the measurement of cognitive potential, as well as academic and professional experience in working with, examining, observing, testing, and modeling mammalian brain activity with potentiations certainly gives a window into what is and is not possible.

Additionally, I suspect your own position, based primarily on faith and belief has some foundation in the We only use 10% of our Brain MYTH..

Fact of the matter is, we use all our brain all the time.

Of course, if you really believe we only use a small fraction of our brains, you are more than welcome to perform a demonstration of this wonderful fantasy by excising the 90% of your brain you don't use.
You could do this with a power drill at home. I'm sure the new cerebral air conditioning and ventilation that results will make hot summers all the more bearable. (Disclaimer: I don't actually recommend any such action by anyone as such action would likely result in permanent damage and/or death)

One can, of course, perform such experiments on animals, though I can sum it up and spoil any suspense you may have by telling you that if you start cutting even tiny sections out of the brains of any animal, it typically doesn't bode well for the animal.
Once again; We use all our brains all the time.

I suspect, however, you lack the conviction, education, training and/or facility to demonstrate and/or supply any verifiable testable data that supports your position.

Back to you.

edit on 24-11-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

Your speaking in terms of accessing logic or your increasing your intelligence level.. which isnt hard is that is what you want to pursuit in life - intelligence.

The mind can do more then think and be smart - or photocopy what its been told by other minds (teachers, bosses, parrents..)

You are evading the point we do not understand the mind's potential. We do not realize that we can do more with our minds then dream and think thoughts up.. randomly or not.

Have you practised meditation all your life? Raise perception with your mind? No you photocopied information all your years and did well in university .. congradulations. This LIFE experience isnt a compeition who can photocopy the most information... to SOME, this reality is about observing and understanding the truth of existence and our true nature as Hu-mans.

Which is why the topic of extaterrestrials and dimensions is key. This is an aspect of reality that CAN be manifested when the Hu-man is intellectually and maturally evolved. You think your university knowledge is key? Wont help you trek across space and time now will it?

Again your experience with your mind? You practise flexing and developing your mental potential do you? Or just photocopy alot of information like a good ol' citizen of the constitution ?

Perhaps the main reason I remain unconvinced by 'proof of UFO reality' is that when carefully checked, so many of those 'proofs' turn out to be inadvertent or even willful misrepresentation, confabulation, and fantasy. If proponents of 'proof' had not turned out to be so defiantly unable to weed out the chaff from the possible wheat, the noise from the potential signal, and to assess fully and honestly even the most 'useful' stories', and to treat evidence maturely, they would have a lot more respect from me than I think they have earned so far.

reply to post by LoveisanArt


To quote and old professor of mine, the mind is what the brain does. Every time the a mind-body discussion comes up on here Iike to use the example of Phineas Gage. Gage was a construction foreman. By all accounts he was even tempered and courteous. He was just an all around good guy. One day at work an explosion caused a steel pipe to go through his head. This includes damaging a portion of his frontal cortex. After his recovery everyone noticed a change in Gage. He was now prone to violence and anger, he started overindulging in excesses, and he became prone to mood swings. In other words he acted like a completely different person. All of this stemmed from a brain injury. What this shows that even if the mind and the brain are separate, the mind is subservient to the brain to the point where any difference between the two is negligible. For other examples of how changes in the brain can affect our perception of reality (read: consciousness) I suggest reading the works of Oliver Sacks and V.S. Ramachandran.

Originally posted by LoveisanArt

Your speaking in terms of accessing logic or your increasing your intelligence level.. which isnt hard is that is what you want to pursuit in life - intelligence.

The mind can do more then think and be smart - or photocopy what its been told by other minds (teachers, bosses, parrents..)

You are evading the point we do not understand the mind's potential. We do not realize that we can do more with our minds then dream and think thoughts up.. randomly or not.

Have you practised meditation all your life? Raise perception with your mind? No you photocopied information all your years and did well in university

.. congradulations. This LIFE experience isnt a compeition who can photocopy the most information... to SOME, this reality is about observing and understanding the truth of existence and our true nature as Hu-mans.

Which is why the topic of extaterrestrials and dimensions is key. This is an aspect of reality that CAN be manifested when the Hu-man is intellectually and maturally evolved. You think your university knowledge is key? Wont help you trek across space and time now will it?

Again your experience with your mind? You practise flexing and developing your mental potential do you? Or just photocopy alot of information like a good ol' citizen of the constitution

?

Actually there are entire facilities all over the planet dedicated to the study of the mind and its potential.

You're more than free to apply as a research subject at your local University.

You might sit in a room staring at a paper origami crane under glass attempting to move it with your mind, spirit, higher self, Chi, or whatever bit of extra warm and fuzzy something you might think you think you have.

You might be asked to describe objects in a sealed room during your OBEs, Astral Travels, or whatever other realities you've convinced yourself into believing you're experiencing.

Thing is, all this 'elevated consciousness' along with all these other imaginary realities you think you are thinking you might be experiencing are the results of you exploring the wonderful wild world of the INSIDE OF YOUR OWN SKULL.
It's all subjective nonsense trickery.

Yep. You've got a whole entire universe of imagination tattoo'd on the inside of your skull, and all this OBE, elevated consciousness, enlightenment, astral projection, crystal power world of fun, though medically, psychologically, and physiologically beneficial in relieving stress, is just the product of your own mind.

Why do so many people have similar experiences?
Um, because they're people?
We're all wired essentially the same?

You don't see pigs designing electronic architecture, or engineering efficient next generation fighter jet propulsion.
You don't see many other animals, other than perhaps the mimic octopus (joke) doing what other animals can do.
Similar animals do similar things.

The same applies to each and every human.
Similar experiences in your astral dream world?
Big news; you're human. Other humans are wired the same and can trick their brains into performing similar stunts.

All of it can be replicated in a lab under controlled conditions.
You can be convinced of a legitimate alien abduction experience if you want to.
It's part of the human programming.

reply to post by LoveisanArt


I really shouldn't bother to waste my time here because you will not LISTEN, but oh well...

Again your trying to perceive something (a higher intelligent life form then yourself - human) that you have not experienced. Though the extraterrestrial being has witnessed other life forms, seen the galaxy and maybe beyond.

Nope actually I'm not "trying to perceive" anything... I am acknowledging that space is vast with billions and billions of planets so the chances of other life is quite high... As I said I won't begin to speculate/perceive as to the intelligence of the possible life because it is POINTLESS without evidence! You on the other hand have gone into your own mind and come up with "answers", I call them delusions...

Your are being ignorant to what would be their intelligence, as you think we know everything about creation already.. they would not allow the surface race to expose them. They can blend with space and possibly travel between levels of reality or dimensions.

Again you are stating total untruths, I CLEARLY said that "I WILL NOT SPECULATE" on their intelligence... Which part of that do you not understand? When have I mentioned creation? Buddy I think you see lots of things that are not there, including things I have/haven't said... Then you go on with your delusions!

"They can blend with space and possibly travel between levels of reality or dimensions." Where did you get this info? Oh yeah, your MIND! This is your fantasy mate, you are welcome to it. But until you show me some FACTS and PROOF I will not entertain it...

How are we suppose to have evidence of this?

So you do admit you have no evidence... So then what the hell are you talking about? Case closed, game over... No need to discuss anymore of your ramblings and lies...

Thank you and good night...

reply to post by Druscilla


That was a bit off topic; I do not need to apply at any University; they use technology, a manmade thing with no LIFE force within it to analyze the potential of the mind. Is that not irony? Trying to measure something, with something that has no reference to what is being measured??

Ive seen and work with my own mind, many friends and other people I have had the time sharing with.. have experienced alot of things, sometimes we experience things together, which are not physical in nature.

You say we are all wired in or plugged in the same way.. The point is WHAT are we plugged into? You can only find out by going deep into that which can reach the source to this life-giving-force we call "god", the mind.

You cant use technology to measure the mind.. that makes no sense, as it was the mind which invented the techology. You cant understand your creator God, because you are already apart of it, thus perceiving yourself brings more questions then answers?

Your body DIES and decays into the Earth.. YOU memories, emotions, thoughts, feelings do not die and END complete blackness and silence forever... You carry on somewhere, we call it the God, I call it the creator. Metaphorically we speak of the same things when relating these terms. That which gave us the ability to experience life as a Hu-man.

So how do we connect with this God source before the body dies? MEDITATION and going deep within the mind. The Buddha did spend all that time under a tree because he was fantasizing.. ITs because he and those who also practise the art of self discovery, re-connected with something much larger then themselves. But phsyically they are just sitting/laying there cross legged.

Death is just your awareness, consciousness, YOU.. seperating from a body which cannot support your life force any longer.
But we cannot see or touch this Loveisanart.. so you are fantasy bonkers, and this doesnt exist...

Extraterrestrials do not travel space looking for a God or supreme entity to serve.. they serve themselves; "Kingdom of Heaven lies within" .. when we figure this out; we can start steering this race into a more enlightening and developing path of evolution.

This is stuff you dont learn in university, school or on tv .. its for good reason, your easy to control when you look outside of yourself and speculate or follow sources like NASA etc.

The elite have this type of knowledge, they know of extraterrestrial existence, and they love the fact that you wont believe in it!

Originally posted by LoveisanArt

This is stuff you dont learn in university, school or on tv .. its for good reason, your easy to control when you look outside of yourself and speculate or follow sources like NASA etc.

The elite have this type of knowledge, they know of extraterrestrial existence, and they love the fact that you wont believe in it!

Actually, a very good case can be made that folks inclined to accept unsubstantiated claims of the paranormal are more susceptible to manipulation by the "elite" than those who engage in rational skepticism.

reply to post by LoveisanArt


How is staring at a paper origami swan under a glass bowl trying to move it with your mind interference with technology?

You're over-rationalizing your unfounded belief in 'sacred' foolishness as a defense response.

The mind goes on after we die?
Really?

Harry Houdini still hasn't communicated from beyond the grave, which he emphatically promised he WOULD indeed do.

There is no AFTER.

We're rather clever animals no matter how much you want to romanticize it by attaching significance through mythologies woven with quaint little catch phrased ideas.

For all your vaulted claims, science has been quite very thorough in setting up test and observation protocols to study all these claims:


Typically, it all boils down to subjective experience where you trick your brain into lying to itself.

You're not plugged into anything. You might be self-hacking your programming to make you think you're journeying off to some elevated consciousness candy land, but, you're not.
There is no broadband, or even dial-up wireless connection to the mind.
We'd have seen evidence of such by now in controlled observations in the lab were it true.
Your brain is fooling itself into thinking more is going on than there actually is.

You really don't seem to realize how complex of a machine the brain is while all the time claiming it's some wonderfully complex machine.

Attempting to discuss this with you is like trying to explain the workings of an internal combustion engine while all the time you keep claiming it's 'magic' because:
- you turn a key and it goes
- you don't really understand how it works

reply to post by LoveisanArt


The siimple fact is theres no scientific evidence for existence of UFO's (of alien origin) or Aliens (E.T)...period.

Thats why debunkers and pseudo sceptics will challenge you and anyyone that believes in these things.

The real sceptics are open to the possibilty and can debate and speculate BUT never say its a FACT.

The problem with your post you make a lot of assumptions and talk about things like its fact - i hope youre ready for the on slaught buddy !

reply to post by Druscilla


You are an arrogant individual; hoenstly think that you have seen it all? You know how reality works? You belive you do not have a soul or spirit which carries on when the body fails too... I dont, but Im fantasizing and confused, or living a pigment of imagination?

MONEY is imagination, GOVERNMENT is imagination.. these are things that were made up in the mind, and manifested in the physical world.. and people like you blindly follow these ideas. If your mind can belive money can get you things, WHAT else can the mind do when its not limited?

Clearly you have no psychic background and only turn to industries who research it for answers :S... meanwhile its part of SOME people's everyday Life.
Seeing beings in your mind, perceiving past the physical realm, telepathy and other things of the nature, are not fantasy.. they are not understood BY YOU or the university you attend. Doesnt mean they are not possible within the human-mind system.

Judging things by lack of experience is ironic. People do not practise with their minds to waste time fantasizing. They are reaching a place within themselves that cannot be measured by outside instruments; but because of this, it can not exist or be proven?

Not one time in your life will you stop working and thinking; meditate and learn yourself as a human being. You will live fast and die young. This is the ways of modern man. This is ignorance at its finest level in existence. Speculating and turning to others for answers is not proving or dis proving anything.. actual experience is neccessary; this is the point of the thread.

What is it that makes you not believe? Well its the same thing that makes believe when your heart stops running you die in darkness forever lol.. lack of knowledge and experience. You do not experience the depth of your mind, therefore you have no knowledge in the depth of your mind, therefore your PERCEPTION is limited.

I understand reality is fragile and complex thing to observe and learn... but we look at reality only at the surface level...reality does not mean what you see with your 5 physical receptors.
Reality is the experience of the observing consciousness within the body. The one who thinks, perceives, feels(emotions), wonders, travels the mind...

We see ourselves as flesh and bone with a brain and heart which allows us to operate.. then we die and its all over. We observed a vast creation with unknown life forms for 80 or so years, for no reason? You believe this!?

Originally posted by PhoenixOD
Ive been looking into it for years hoping to find proof of visiting aliens. When i started i firmly believed they were out there and the evidence was well documented but just denied but the mainstream scientists.

Now many years later its obvious that the harder i look the less decent evidence there is to find. Its sad but true. If you are really serious about the subject at some point in the investigations you have to stop just believing because you want to and actually look for real hard evidence that is really undeniable. You have to start looking at the subject from all angles instead of being a close minded believer. A lot of people who are hardened believers think they are the open minded ones when in reality they are just looking at the subject with rose tinted glasses and blinkers.
...

I don't blame the younger member's here for wanting to believe, i still want to believe and believe me i will be the first to back about any really good evidence that anyone can come up with. But crop circles , Chinese lanterns and a few crazy / attention seeking people who claim to be abductees are never going to do it for me..

Its a fun subject but set yourself higher standards of proof ,deny ignorance and stop letting people fool you. We are moving into a new age next month , maybe we can all grow a little and accept the truth of the subject that there is no evidence. Then we can file UFO's away with other past legends like monsters, ghosts, fairies and dragons.

edit on 24-11-2012 by PhoenixOD because: (no reason given)

I have similar sentiments, although I still am (essentially) a believer. But I think more and more that is based on just my personal experience and less and less based on any concrete evidence "out there".

I think that it does seem that the quality of UFO sightings is diminishing over time. The "real concrete evidence" we find in video and photographs seems to vary from poor to downright laughable. I think that this might be partly because there is a substantial percentage of the population who are now "true believers" and who tend to get overly excited by the most mundane sightings - flooding all the reporting channels with really unconvincing videos and photos of tiny, out of focus, "lights in the sky". Or videos of bugs and photos of birds.

If there is a desire to "truly investigate" some of the genuine unknowns, then the first priority should be to eliminate the high (and growing) percentage of sightings that seem to be totally mundane phenomena.

Meanwhile, I do think that the genuine skeptics provide a real contribution, by pointing out a lot of the failures and faults within reports, video "evidence", etc.

It does seem to me that the nature of UFO phenomena has changed over the decades. I do wonder if they (ETs) have moved on, or decided to remain more hidden - assuming that there ever was an ET source to some sightings.

Originally posted by LoveisanArt
The first posts I recieve of "skeptics" is full of "I have not seen". This is exactly what I said in the OP. I didnt ask for sarcasm or anything, quite frankly you all went off topic..

WHY dont you belive. Just because you havent seen? Or something in your mind or consciousness that believes its impossible for it to exist?

Your individual Life, your personality; what is it that makes you think the life you are living doesnt involve other realms or beings?

The topic isn't about lack of evidence; its about you personally, what you feel about this aspect of reality.

You know this argument works both ways......take a look around some of the forums here and ask yourself "why do some people believe blindly" there are a multitude of posters here at ATS who post stories, videos and pictures of "UFO's" the vast majority when presented with scientific evidence or common sense, flat out refuse to believe that what they have seen/filmed/photographed is anything less than an alien starship.

Bottom line is there is no empirical evidence of extraterrestrial contact with this planet......so I could ask you the question.....why don't you believe that?

reply to post by LoveisanArt


If your claims have any merit, then, we should be able to prove them.

Put you in a room alone, with any and every kind of Ravi Shankar music you desire at your disposal and control, as well as any and every kind recreational 'sacred' chemical assistance you may or may not use, desire to use, or require to blast you off into whatever magically mystery space land you imagine you think you are going to.

Do the same for any other number of other individuals.

Give every single subject isolated from one another in different rooms a message, a symbol, a sign, SOMETHING original and unique to each subject to convey to all the others.

Lock the doors, and wait.

Time comes up, unlock the doors to puffs of smoke, and mentions of "wow, man, dude, wow, dude, far out", and then interview each and every single subject.

Did any subject effectively communicate their unique symbol, number, sign, phrase, color, or pattern to any other one?

NO.

It fails every time.

No technology used.
Each subject blasts off to whatever fairy land they think they go to using or not using whatever means they require or think they need to do so without interference.

Each subject does their thing without interference or interruption.

When time's done, they're interviewed.

Do you see any technology at work here?
Certainly if any of the subjects was connecting to any other, they could communicate a simple symbol, number, pattern, or something unique to one another; at least one?

NOPE every single time.

The worlds they're, you're going to are drawn on the insides of their/your skull.

If there's any sort of experience that's being SHARED in any way, there should certainly be a way to share other information, but, no, all data indicates is that it's always a subjective experience.

Certainly when groups of people 'trip', or whatever you want to call it together, they can pick up on clues and cues given each other through body language or other methods when they're allowed contact where they can then reinforce their supposedly wow, man, dude man, wow experiences by talking about it among themselves without rigid controls in place where they then collectively sympathize with each other to form a story that was shared in actuality after the fact by talking about it and convincing each other that "wow, man, dude, wow, I saw that too!"

You're more than welcome to disillusion yourself with cushioning from the hard concrete reality of reality with fuzzy fun candy land fantasies. Have at it. Cheers.
It's your brain and body, so set up a carnival ride playground in it if you want.

It is, however, make-believe.

We're meat machines, and just like metal machines, when we die and go to the scrap heap, that's it.
Make up stories to cushion the blow all you want. Hug whatever security blanket makes you feel better.
The only real PURPOSE in life is to live long enough to procreate.

Everything else beyond our basic animal animal-ness is quirky fun stuff we like to occupy ourselves with like self examination.

When we die, that's it. Squish.
Done.

It's understandable if you're too weak to be able to handle such a hard reality, but, that's why people are so fond of turtle-ing into fantasies like religion, or whatever it is you're going on about.

reply to post by LoveisanArt





Well should you ever need brain surgery...Pray that the neurosurgeon you are under

has done his 14/16 years at university and medical college to be fully trained to specialise

in brain surgery and is NOT relying on pulling something from the 'depth of their mind and

physic and telepathic background'

reply to post by LoveisanArt


First off, you're setting up a straw-man argument by putting off a bunch of silly ideas and claims as if they came from sceptics.

I consider myself a sceptic in the sense that I am not convinced of extraordinary claims or arguments easily. I am willing to believe, based on the evidence that exists, that there is definitely an extremely strange phenomenon going on, and that for some reason the Government of the United States has not been entirely forthcoming about it; there are too may highly credible witnesses to various UFO phenomena and to information disappearing down the federal memory-hole to dismiss. However, it's a long way from that to "ZOMG ALIENS/STARSHIPS/OTHER DIMENSIONS/MIND POWER!!!" Any of those things may be true, of course, and as extraordinary as the "aliens" possibility is it definitely could fit the data we have now, and is a tantalizing possibility worth exploring. However, there has to be some fairly strong objective evidence to get us from here to there, and in my mind we haven't got that presently.

Also, there's a difference between debunking and the healthy scepticism associated with rational inquiry. "Debunking" implies that the deck is stacked, and the debunker's mind is made up beforehand. On the other hand, rational inquiry along empiric lines implies requires a healthy scepticism and an open mind at the same time. I am aware that a lot of people labelling themselves "sceptics" are actually just closed-minded, but the fact that the concept has been abused doesn't mean we should toss it out.

Diogenes

Originally posted by Argyll

Originally posted by LoveisanArt
The first posts I recieve of "skeptics" is full of "I have not seen". This is exactly what I said in the OP. I didnt ask for sarcasm or anything, quite frankly you all went off topic..

WHY dont you belive. Just because you havent seen? Or something in your mind or consciousness that believes its impossible for it to exist?

Your individual Life, your personality; what is it that makes you think the life you are living doesnt involve other realms or beings?

The topic isn't about lack of evidence; its about you personally, what you feel about this aspect of reality.

You know this argument works both ways......take a look around some of the forums here and ask yourself "why do some people believe blindly" there are a multitude of posters here at ATS who post stories, videos and pictures of "UFO's" the vast majority when presented with scientific evidence or common sense, flat out refuse to believe that what they have seen/filmed/photographed is anything less than an alien starship.

Bottom line is there is no empirical evidence of extraterrestrial contact with this planet......so I could ask you the question.....why don't you believe that?

Believing blindly as you inputed... is parralell to believing with reason. I have reason to believe aliens and starships.. Ive seen both, with my two eyes and within my mind. Which has been exercised beyond the average human potential.

Starships are always around my home in the skies (Eastern Ontario). Ive seen a few in Norway when I visited this past summer. Im sure Ill see more when I move to Calgary Alberta this week. They are RIGHT THERE in the sky.

This is why I believe; Ive also seen other things in the sky that do not relate to transportation or life forms which have made me wake up to reality and search for answers.

YOU BLINDLY FOLLOW your fabrication. You have experienced anything, therefore you cant believe these topics. Whats that story about the men in a cave facing their shadows? And one of em' was brave enough to turn around and explore outside of the cave... yea this is what is happening with humanity now in regards to extraterreestrial beings and the potential and capacity of the Human MIND.

Dont be so quick to judge.. your perception on things is narrow; thus its hard for you to believe and accept things as factual. This is understandable when one has not experienced.. but what gives that individual the RIGHT to know things off and say they cannot exist?

I think reality is to broad and complex for most in soceity, so they shut off and keep with only that in which they understand, have experienced and CAN comprehend. Their window of perception on "Life" is narrow.

Is this a good way for humanity to lead itself? If all you dis believers are wrong; and one day soon when humanity proves to be mature and developed enough to make contact with ETs and learn their technology.. then what do you do? Will you ever apologize for dis regarding people like me, and the experiences we had that you or mainstream skepticism could not understand and explain? I have a feeling you wouldnt..

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by LoveisanArt

 

Well should you ever need brain surgery...Pray that the neurosurgeon you are under

has done his 14/16 years at university and medical college to be fully trained to specialise

in brain surgery and is NOT relying on pulling something from the 'depth of their mind and

physic and telepathic background'

Funny little chihuahua.. lots of bark, little bite

I will never need any sort of surgery, Im very athletic, never have injured myself, a conscious and honest individual who would never put his one life in harm's way... I havent been to a hospital since my society demanded vaccines as a child.. and never been to a dentist; I have completely straight-white teeth. I know how to live my life..

Moderator edit -- incivil remark removed