What is punishment for taking up sins of the world? Death or Hell??

Let the bible answer

The punishment for sin is death not hell.
Romans 6:7
He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.

Ezekiel 18:4
The life of every person belongs to me. Fathers and their children belong to me. The person who sins will die.

Romans 6:23a
For the wages of sin is death

Romans 3:23
Because all people have sinned, they have fallen short of God's glory.


The hope for dead humans and those that will die.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5 28&29
Do not be astonished at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And they shall come out: those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil deeds, to the resurrection of judgment.

There is no hellfire it is simple a mistranslation of Sheol/Hades used as a scare tactic to scare ignorant people centuries ago, if the clergy class actually believed it themselves would they have acted in such an evil manner through the eons themselves?

So the answer to your question is death which is non-existence, but God has the ability to store every human in his memory and recreate them less any major physical flaws, as he promised to do in scripture. Of coarse the bible talks about the second death which means a person is gone for good non-existent not alive in some hell dimension with Satan and his demons, because there going to be dead too eventually.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

So the answer to your question is death which is non-existence, but God has the ability to store every human in his memory and recreate them less any major physical flaws, as he promised to do in scripture.

That's pretty interesting, considering vanity is one of the seven deadly sins. So basically, if we avoid the seven deadly sins, we are rewarded with them. If we fail to avoid the seven deadly sins, we are punished with them.

It's a giant circle, yet people act like it's a straight line. Makes so much sense.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Your "God" IS an egomaniac. He even
breaks his own commandments. He
impregnated another man's wife, he
killed billions, and he is a jealous god,
which means he covets. Furthermore,
he has shown himself PROUDLY capable of almost all seven deadly
sins. Not just capable, but PROUDLY
capable. He flaunts his practices of the
deadly sins.
What further proof do you need?

if anyone deserves to have ego then He is God, and He doesnt need it, ego means feeling superior, He is Supreme, you want God not to tell the truth? Anyways another thing, i am not christian but a muslim, now maybe you could spill some dirt on my religion too, i dint expect that, i thought we can discuss and you can take the offer of making your perfect god.
.
Technically God is a killer of all cause He made us mortal, now you would complain about that too!!

So all people who do not surrender
themselves to your "God" have free
will? Their fates are their own?

ya, but do you deny consequences of actions/inactions? But God would still know their fates.

If everything we have
so far discussed is to be taken as true, then their lives are predesignated.
Every person who exists, has existed,
or ever will exist has every instant of
their lives known and designed fully
by your "God". It is impossible for it to
be otherwise,

true! But they dont know it! Dont you get that? If from an apple & orange you pick up apple and find later that God already had planned orange for someone else would you whine? You got a fair choice, now get over it! And now repeat this type of sequences all your life and you get free choice yet predestined!!

Therefore, no
matter what you do, "God" has
foreseen it. And if it happened, it
happened because "God" allowed it.
This means there is no choice. There is only his plan, and you are the pawn
that fulfills it.

good! very close. If i put it in my way, This Whole Show is running for our benifit, if you get that. God knows but we dont. So at the end we would know too that we made choices and where those led us. No room to complain you see!

What excuse does he have not
to fix what he breaks?

He will, but you want it in this life, well if so then also tell how? The catch dont mess with anybody's free will.

But I'm human. I don't have
any clear idea of a perfect power,
because an imperfect mold does not
create a perfect vase. And if you were
the least bit prepared to hold your
own in this discussion, you would already know that about yourself as
well.

i like that attitude. And i am aware about myself. But then doesnt God know about our weakness, imperfections and the only way to guide us is to contact us yet not too obviously?
And if you admit your limitations, how you judge God so easily? You can only judge Him at the end. And He will judge us. Interesting!

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


so when i die, all my sins are gone and i just vanish away?
But Jesus pbuh died for sins of the world and went to Heaven. Fair?

reply to post by logical7

if anyone deserves to have ego then He is God, and He doesnt need it, ego means feeling superior, He is Supreme, you want God not to tell the truth?

Anyone who uses their power as an excuse to hurt or judge lesser beings is undeserving of that power. He's a parent, not a warlord. And anyone who allows such power to go to their head is most definitely not deserving of that power.

i thought we can discuss and you can take the offer of making your perfect god.

I don't make gods. It's a worthless exercise.

Technically God is a killer of all cause He made us mortal, now you would complain about that too!!

There's enabling something to die, and then there's expediting the process. There's a huge difference. Not to mention sending your creations into an eternity of agony because they turned out exactly the way you planned. That's just cruel.

ya, but do you deny consequences of actions/inactions? But God would still know their fates.

Indeed, and would be fully capable of changing those fates at any given instant. Hell, he could even arrange it so one action that would normally lead to another reaction leads to a completely different reaction, thereby sparing a terrible fate.

If from an apple & orange you pick up apple and find later that God already had planned orange for someone else would you whine?

Eh...it depends on the situation. But that's completely beside the point. What I was talking about is knowing exactly the sort of fate that awaits someone (i.e. a terrible needless death at the hands of a deranged psychopath) and not lifting a single finger to stop it. Even though there's a thousand ways to do it and make it look like an accident.

I'm not talking apples and oranges. I'm talking much less trivial stuff, like fate.

You got a fair choice, now get over it! And now repeat this type of sequences all your life and you get free choice yet predestined!!

How is getting stabbed and raped while jogging in the park a fair choice? And how is getting set up throughout your entire life so that you can't help but earn a seat in hell - how is that a fair choice? You didn't design your life, this "God" did! There's no fairness involved when you are being toyed with by an omniscient omnipotent being. Both parties must be on equal playing grounds.

God knows but we dont. So at the end we would know too that we made choices and where those led us. No room to complain you see!

Are you deliberately misunderstanding me? When we die, that is supposedly it. Nothing more. We either go to heaven, or we go to hell. And "God" basically hand picks who goes where. So how does he do that? How does he judge someone 1,000 years before they're even conceived? I don't see the justice in that. Reincarnation would be a different story, but that's not what the Bible tells us, is it?

He will, but you want it in this life, well if so then also tell how? The catch dont mess with anybody's free will.

What free will? I have already explained that according to the character profile for this "God" dude, anything created by him is devoid of free will because its entire existence is chronicled before it ever materializes.

And nature doesn't have free will either. And neither does our environment. Is a falling brick or a flash of light too much to ask? Maybe a nudge to the arm so the knife doesn't land, or a stray shoe lace to trip someone up. So many lives could be saved that way.

i like that attitude. And i am aware about myself. But then doesnt God know about our weakness, imperfections and the only way to guide us is to contact us yet not too obviously?
And if you admit your limitations, how you judge God so easily? You can only judge Him at the end. And He will judge us. Interesting!

He judges us for the imperfections he gave us. And then we spend an eternity in fire and brimstone because we were born and lived exactly as he made us. He lifted not a finger to correct his design, yet he holds that against us. Do you not understand this?

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

so when i die, all my sins are gone and i just vanish away?
But Jesus pbuh died for sins of the world and went to Heaven. Fair?

edit on 16-11-2012 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

I would say Jesus was not a regular human, first he didn't die because of his sin, as he had none, but to save humanity from sin.

It seems people haven't figured out that death is the ultimate price to pay for sin, all sins, there is no higher price to be paid, as illustrated with Jesus death. But getting a resurrection later, after your soul has died, is what remains to be seen, 99% of humans that have lived and died are covered. People like Adam and Eve aren't.
And Judas because he sinned against the holy spirit, but they are still just dead, and they are never coming back, and they aren't in some 4th dimensional hellfire burning forever either.
In the end when it comes to hell people can believe the lies the church/clergy have spread to scare people or believe what the bible says, actually God.

Genesis 3:19b
You are dust, and you will return to dust

This is not just talking about our physical body.
Funny thing is Atheists have this part of the theology correct, compared to what most Christians think and believe.

So many have been sucked into the original Satanic lie, the one who started the idea of "the immorality of the soul"
Genesis 3:4
"You won't die!" the serpent replied to the woman.

Well that women died, and her soul at the same time, she went back to the dust as God said she would, Satan lied.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


i understand it all that you say. But tell me do you consider death as end and so complain that God is not doing a little change to save lives? Why is living longer important? A good person dying young is bad in your eyes? But what if that person had proved to be good, deserve heaven and so called back, do you get the bigger picture?? Ya babies die, innocents die, get raped, suffer but after that doesnt it give them heaven?will they complain?
.
And lets take it very personal, if you know this could be all true. And you have two choices, arent you completely free to choose? Why are you looking at this through the level of God and His Knowledge, why not as a humble individual. why a person would knowingly choose hell? and if that choice is made how is God to be blamed?
God isnt doing you any injustice, but by not accepting his Creator, a person does injustice to God.
Its very simple,
if i am told not to put hand in the flame and i do it, can i blame the one who told me? Or would you say that he should have done more to save me from the burn? You are denying personal responsibility completely. You expect God to make everything sweet and rosy for everyone, He dint give each one a mind, knowledge and ability to act for nothing. According to you all murderers, rapists etc should either not exist or not go to hell, in short you complain why God gave humans the power to do wrong and if he did, why he lets them wrong others, ok lets say He saves then whom will those wrong guys hurt? Another. saved again. Another. They sure deserve hell but for what crime? Precrime? Then He should just make it impossible to do wrong, wait a minute that would be angels, they dont have free will and always do the right thing.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


your explanations are new to me, i guess even many christians would disagree with you.
But tell me why Adam and Eve left out??

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

your explanations are new to me, i guess even many christians would disagree with you.
But tell me why Adam and Eve left out??

It's true many Christians do disagree with me on this topic, I don't let 2000 years of theological lies cloud my ability to discern God's word as it is written. Some are very vindictive that way, because they want hell to exist to punish those they see living an evil life. But I know that death and non-existence is enough of a punishment from God. What parent would torture his own children forever ? None.

As for Adam and Eve they are excluded because they were perfect and without sin, until they defied God, their sin put a death sentence on themselves and all there offspring. We get considerable leeway because God knows we are born with sin in us that we have to fight our whole lives against it too, and we have Jesus ransom sacrifice that covers all physical sins.
But we are expected to fight it, not say to God too bad this is the way I am.
He wants us all to fight the dark side of our sinful nature, not embrace it, and let it run wild.

I believe he watches how hard of a fight we put up, based on our emotional, mental, and genetic make up.
For some they are naturally good people, even atheists can be naturally good people not even following the Biblical code, they just try to be good, it's in their personal nature. Then you get some believers that are nasty people it's in their nature to be evil.

In the end our actions speak more than any put on label or title.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

But we are expected to fight it, not say to God too bad this is the way I am.

Even if its because of him that we were born that way?

For some they are naturally good people, even atheists can be naturally good people not even following the Biblical code, they just try to be good, it's in their personal nature. Then you get some believers that are nasty people it's in their nature to be evil.

The words 'good' and 'evil' reveal more about the person using the word than the object or person being described. Someone else can come along and look at the same situation and say something completely different about it. Furthermore, good and evil are ways of describing how something makes us feel.

So in truth, we should be saying, "I feel like that's evil" or "I feel like that's good", because in the end, that's how WE feel. Our emotions are not guaranteed to absolutely define anything.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

As for Adam and Eve they are excluded because they were perfect
and without sin, until they defied God,
their sin put a death sentence on
themselves and all there offspring.

their sin was disobedience, and even the humans after them disobeyed, so why only they punished more?
The story of Adam and Eve just tells us how we are, how we are inclined towards disobedience when tempted.
And now God is testing us too as to how much we have learnt from the mistake of our parents,Adam and Eve.
Because otherwise what was the need to send us on this earth? God could have just let the son die for everyone's original sin and we could always be in Heaven.
Better God could have just forgiven as He knew the intention of the son to die for sins, there wasnt a need of actual death just like Abraham phuh was ready to sacrifice his son but God dint actually let it happen as he knew the intention in heart. So we have to still give the same simple test, "dont do what God forbade!" or we'l repeat the legacy of our parents.

reply to post by logical7

their sin was disobedience, and even the humans after them disobeyed, so why only they punished more?

Their sin was not disobedience. Their sin was vanity. They ate of the tree o good and evil, which gave them the ability to distinguish between that which they felt was good and that which they felt was bad. As a result, they judged themselves as unworthy because they saw their nakedness as being bad.

van·i·ty/ˈvanətē/
Noun:

1. Excessive pride in or admiration of one's own appearance or achievements.
2. Denoting a person or company that publishes works at the author's expense: "a vanity press".

Synonyms:
conceit - futility - vainglory - pride - arrogance

As we can see, another word for vanity is conceit. Their thoughts after eating the fruit were concerned with one thing only - themselves. Their condition, and how their father would react to their condition. They were concerned for their own sake. Vanity.

Disobedience is an obsolete way of looking at it. Disobedience is a VAIN way of looking at it. A dispassionate, narrow-minded view of the story.

And now God is testing us too as to how much we have learnt from the mistake of our parents,Adam and Eve.

No. Everything I see today that could possibly be construed as a test came from one man or another.

Because otherwise what was the need to send us on this earth? God could have just let the son die for everyone's original sin and we could always be in Heaven.

That would have been much more simple, yes.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

THeir sin was not disobedience. Their
sin was vanity.

Their sin was disobedience, vanity was the result/consequence. And ya Vanity leads to more sins so vanity is the cause of sins but not the original sin because vanity dint exist when it was committed. It was disobedience.

No. Everything I see today that could
possibly be construed as a test came
from one man or another.

true! Who designed it to be that way? The oppresser is tested by power, the oppressed tested by the oppression. Humility of the one with power is tested against the patience and faith of the oppressed, sense of Justice of the observers to act, to object is tested too. See the intelligent design??

reply to post by logical7

Their sin was disobedience, vanity was the result/consequence. And ya Vanity leads to more sins so vanity is the cause of sins but not the original sin because vanity dint exist when it was committed. It was disobedience.

So all the seven deadly sins are not actually sins, but the FRUIT of sins? Vanity leads to disobedience. Are you saying none of the seven sins existed at that time? What evidence do you have to support this?

Humility of the one with power is tested against the patience and faith of the oppressed, sense of Justice of the observers to act, to object is tested too.

That's a fairly foolish test to give to humans. That's a never-ending cycle of self-service waiting to happen, right there. The oppressors want to be served, the oppressed want to be served, the oppressors punish the oppressed for not serving them, the oppressed are rebelling against the oppressors, and it just goes round and round and round. You can see it throughout history. Does it end? No, we only get better at it. And in getting better, more lives are lost and more of the world gets destroyed and we understand less and less and we hurt more and more.

We were designed far too flawed to recognize our mistakes and rectify them. Where's the fun in being good?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

So all the seven deadly sins are not
actually sins, but the FRUIT of sins?
Vanity leads to disobedience. Are you
saying none of the seven sins existed
at that time? What evidence do you
have to support this?

Ya they are more correctly fruit of sin. How could sins exist till the 1st thought came in the mind of man, ya God was aware of them obviously. So what you mean by exist should be more defined. The first murder was between abel and cain i guess.
But simply put they were born due to vanity and failure to obey God. Proof? I just have reasoning.

We were designed far too flawed to
recognize our mistakes and rectify them. Where's the fun in being good?

you are too pessimistic about it, its a flaw by design.
Quran2:30) Just think when your Lord said to the angels: “Lo! I am about to place a vicegerent on earth,” they said: “Will You place on it one who will spread mischief and shed blood while we celebrate Your glory and extol Your holiness?” He said: “Surely I know what you do not know.”
i have told you the flaw is byproduct of free will(too free to do wrong) and the solution is to obey God by submitting the part of free will thats lead by vanity.

reply to post by logical7

Ya they are more correctly fruit of sin. How could sins exist till the 1st thought came in the mind of man, ya God was aware of them obviously. So what you mean by exist should be more defined. The first murder was between abel and cain i guess.
But simply put they were born due to vanity and failure to obey God. Proof? I just have reasoning.

Reasoning says that the seven deadly sins are the trees from which all negative fruit is born. They aren't fruit in and of themselves. I'd like you to explain your so-called "reasoning" in deeper detail.

you are too pessimistic about it, its a flaw by design.

So Fox, CNN, NBC, Dateline, and all the other news programs are too pessimistic? Or are they showing us the truth - or part of it, anyway.

i have told you the flaw is byproduct of free will(too free to do wrong) and the solution is to obey God by submitting the part of free will thats lead by vanity.

You don't listen very well. I've already explained that when everything that is good and bad was created by an omniscient being, that being is responsible for everything that happens. And should that being choose not to change something, that being is saying, "I like this idea better. I choose not to change it. It happens according to my will."

There is no free will when your creator knows exactly what will come of every single variable and has the power to intervene, but chooses not to. If a chess player chooses to move one pawn and not the other, that player is still responsible for the pawn that is taken. That player is responsible for having made the decision to sacrifice the pawn. There is no free will involved. The only being who has free will, according to the Bible, is "God". He has the free will to determine our lack of free will, as determined by his incredible foresight and subsequent lack of intervention.

How many times must I explain this to you?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Reasoning says that the seven deadly
sins are the trees from which all
negative fruit is born. They aren't fruit
in and of themselves. I'd like you to
explain your so-called "reasoning" in
deeper detail.

why dont you tell me about the trees, tell me your reasoning why the seven sins dont have a common origin.

So Fox, CNN, NBC, Dateline, and all the
other news programs are too
pessimistic? Or are they showing us
the truth - or part of it, anyway.

i dint deny what the world is now. I just asked why you think it wouldnt change. And these programs just report what their masters want. There is a lot good in the world but its not newsworthy.

You don't listen very well. I've already
explained that when everything that is
good and bad was created by an
omniscient being, that being is
responsible for everything that
happens. And should that being choose not to change something, that
being is saying, "I like this idea better.
I choose not to change it. It happens
according to my will."
There is no free will when your creator
knows exactly what will come of every single variable and has the
power to intervene, but chooses not
to. If a chess player chooses to move
one pawn and not the other, that
player is still responsible for the pawn
that is taken. That player is responsible for having made the decision to
sacrifice the pawn. There is no free will
involved. The only being who has free
will, according to the Bible, is "God".
He has the free will to determine our
lack of free will, as determined by his incredible foresight and subsequent
lack of intervention.
How many times must I explain this to
you?

i can say the same to you. I do understand what you say very well. Let me put it this way, if this is a big game, you say God made the losers knowing their fate. Ya true, but whats the other way? The game cant work with just winners. Or God would just make good people and put them in heaven.
Now my way to look at it.
Forget that God knows it all.God made the game, but it has rules. And the starting point is neutral for each. Now when asked if you wana play, you say, "you make us play only if we win"
you want God to make the choice for you but if God did that, there wouldnt be need of free will.
If God had asked you, if you wana play and showed you heaven and hell as the two possible outcomes, would you refuse this life you got and choose to just vanish again?

reply to post by logical7

why dont you tell me about the trees, tell me your reasoning why the seven sins dont have a common origin.

They do. All seven deadly sins have one sin from which they can all spring - VANITY.

i can say the same to you. I do understand what you say very well. Let me put it this way, if this is a big game, you say God made the losers knowing their fate. Ya true, but whats the other way? The game cant work with just winners. Or God would just make good people and put them in heaven.

That last sentence. Right there. If "God" really and truly loves us, then why didn't he just do that? Assuming he really exists, of course.

Forget that God knows it all.God made the game, but it has rules. And the starting point is neutral for each.

If there are rules that he cannot break, then he isn't omnipotent, is he? He can't do ANYTHING he wants, only SOME of what he wants. That's not omnipotence.

Now when asked if you wana play, you say, "you make us play only if we win"
you want God to make the choice for you but if God did that, there wouldnt be need of free will.
If God had asked you, if you wana play and showed you heaven and hell as the two possible outcomes, would you refuse this life you got and choose to just vanish again?

I didn't ask to play. Given the choice, I wouldn't want to. But that choice was taken from me. And now, apparently, "God" wants to take this choice away from me. Either I serve him, or I burn in hell for all of eternity. Well, that's one hell of a toss up! I didn't choose to be born, I didn't choose to be on this planet, I didn't choose to be in this universe, I didn't choose to BE ALIVE!! And now, I don't get a fair choice of how I live my life.

Looking around at the world, seeing how money presides over love and people are killing each other and we're ruled by some "God" that wants us to bow to him and beg for forgiveness because we turned out exactly as he foresaw and planned, do I want to be here?

I gotta go with 'No' on that one. I don't see any point in playing a game that's rigged from the start, in every way imaginable.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

They do. All seven deadly sins have
one sin from which they can all spring
- VANITY.

and VANITY came before the first(original) sin or after? And so what was the first sin??

If there are rules that he cannot break,
then he isn't omnipotent, is he? He
can't do ANYTHING he wants, only
SOME of what he wants. That's not
omnipotence.

rules are for players, would you play a game whose rules can change anytime? U'l again complain about that. The simple point is He choose not to interfere till a time & after that each would be judged. You basically say if He is God then He should do what i think is best or He is not God! Really??

I gotta go with 'No' on that one. I
don't see any point in playing a game
that's rigged from the start, in every
way imaginable.

i hope that, you mean it when you say that you would not choose to be alive!
Rigged ya!! in favour of the ones who believe in the Creator of the Game. and who are good, help others, do their bit no matter how bad things are. Not in favour of the opposites.
The start is neutral not the end, but you are free to choose sides!
If you allow me to give an advice, try looking if something's wrong in you before finding faults in God in which you dont belief. Self knowlegde first my friend.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

But we are expected to fight it, not say to God too bad this is the way I am.

Even if its because of him that we were born that way?

For some they are naturally good people, even atheists can be naturally good people not even following the Biblical code, they just try to be good, it's in their personal nature. Then you get some believers that are nasty people it's in their nature to be evil.

The words 'good' and 'evil' reveal more about the person using the word than the object or person being described. Someone else can come along and look at the same situation and say something completely different about it. Furthermore, good and evil are ways of describing how something makes us feel.

So in truth, we should be saying, "I feel like that's evil" or "I feel like that's good", because in the end, that's how WE feel. Our emotions are not guaranteed to absolutely define anything.

Oh man do I have an answer for this and it is found in a popular science fiction movie you might know it.

Good is a point of view - Darth Sidious, "Revenge Of The Sith"

If you know the context this was said in and the character who said it, my point is made, if not, go watch the movies.
There is a very basic lesson to be learned, the dark side of our nature must be curtailed, if not we invite a morality that see's no limits or boundaries, that usually doesn't end to well for either us or our families, or even the people around us.

Still don't believe me then go watch this movie....perhaps then you will understand where the dark side can ultimately lead at it's very worst, they thought it was "good' too from there point of view.