What is punishment for taking up sins of the world? Death or Hell??

will sinners and rejectors of 'divine' Jesus pbuh just die or go to hell?
If hell then wouldnt the saviour also had to take the same punishment to take on the sins of all as just death wouldnt be enough and neither would it be doing justice. he cant die for 3 days and then go to heaven!!
Thoughts?

To die is different from what anyone supposed, and luckier – Whitman

I have died once an can tell you this man is correct, it is nothing like you think, and is more than you can ever suppose whilst your here.

reply to post by logical7


You are applying logic to myth. It doesn't work.

Originally posted by AsuspiciousMANappears
To die is different from what anyone supposed, and luckier – Whitman

I have died once an can tell you this man is correct, it is nothing like you think, and is more than you can ever suppose whilst your here.

could you elaborate. what is it to die? and what are you trying to say?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

You are applying logic to myth. It doesn't work.

i am trying to make a myth, myth again. It has been around so long its taken as a fact.
They play of words annoy me when they dont make sense and only appeal to the one's who already have the required mindset.

reply to post by logical7


Sure, in my case I passed through a place some might call hell, but it wasn't meant as a hell or even look like what we describe as hell. It was a super intelligence in motion, every single atom had billions of bits of detail more colours more meaning in a single instance than my human brain could handle. But this place didn't even exist in a way I have ever known, my mind couldn't really comprehend it.

It felt like a life time, I know people say that but its not like you think, its more like having a 100mb usb fill up in 10 seconds compared to 1 hour....you just take in so much information so fast then come back to Earth and can only compare it to how long it would take to receive that date in hours or days here.

It was horrible because I knew that place didn't care about me, I was less than a insect I could get lost in it and I was not built for existing there. I suddenly felt like as if I was in the wrong class at school I am only a year 1 student in a year 10 class. I had feelings you don't have on Earth. It was as if Earth is 1 of billions of schools and we are only evolved a certain amount so can only be in an environment with people the same level as us...but seeing outside our classroom was shocking...to see we are not the highest things in existence, we are being sheltered so we can grow without being overshadowed.

But that was just a place kinda like Earth existence for other beings that are not were we are from. But then I got to the next bit..home, And that was perfect, Warm, not like a different dimension and not like Earth and not cloudy or but just solid looking and not godly but people in my perception did where robes kinda like Romans, but it was to make less accomplished souls feel not so crap, haha It is hard to explain an I usually lose people around this mark but were are like crystal light of different colours but it is not a empty as it sounds, some people look sooo amazing and that's why they don't make us feel bad. Its a place you were actually born. You have a kind of family that is better than any Earth family it might include some of your family from Earth right now. And you choose to be on this planet, under these conditions. Believe it or not we see coming to Earth an forgetting everything as fun and work but we get exited. We want to live a mystery of imagined unlimited possibility's . Your personality here is probably not what it will be over there (home).

I cannot do it justice because I don't have the words or similar things here to compare it to. Also you can only know a certain amount about it, as there is rules on how much Earth entire consciousness can know at a given time period. You don't know it at the moment but your existence is #ing fantastic!....you wont believe me but if you had seen what I have you would tell people too.

There is no hell, and not really a reachable god there is a different way of thinking over there. if you live in fear of hell I Guarantee you will kick yourself when you die, Enjoy life what ever that means to you, you are in an environment where you can't really be hurt but EVERYTHING is recorded and learned from at a later time.

Originally posted by logical7
will sinners and rejectors of 'divine' Jesus pbuh just die or go to hell?
If hell then wouldnt the saviour also had to take the same punishment to take on the sins of all as just death wouldnt be enough and neither would it be doing justice. he cant die for 3 days and then go to heaven!!
Thoughts?

The price humans pay for sin is death.

God is Savior, worship only the Most High, the Feared.

AV 1Pt 4:1 . Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

AV 1Pt 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

AV 1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I have heard of your faith in the Lord and of your love for the saints. That's why I say continuously thanks en recall you in my prayers.

reply to post by logical7


The flesh is made to sin. Look at lions with their pride of multiple females is that not lust? Although we can look at it as he's trying to insure the survival of his bloodline.

Look at the same lions do they not fight over territory is that not greed?

Look at monekys tearing eachother apart is that not like hatred between warring tribes.

Fact is the flesh sins. It's the soul that's divine. And creatures of intelligence is supposed to find a balance in both.

If you were born to sin then your flesh is full of it. It's your responsibility to control it so that it's balanced and does not impede on others experiencing their life.

Originally posted by metalholic
reply to post by logical7

 

The flesh is made to sin. Look at lions with their pride of multiple females is that not lust? Although we can look at it as he's trying to insure the survival of his bloodline.

Look at the same lions do they not fight over territory is that not greed?

Look at monekys tearing eachother apart is that not like hatred between warring tribes.

Fact is the flesh sins. It's the soul that's divine. And creatures of intelligence is supposed to find a balance in both.

If you were born to sin then your flesh is full of it. It's your responsibility to control it so that it's balanced and does not impede on others experiencing their life.

very true! Each is responsible for himself/herself. "no soul shall bear the burden of other"

reply to post by logical7


A loving Father would never condem his children...

The people you speak of will be reborn... Into the body and situation they deserve...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

A loving Father would never condem his children...

The people you speak of will be reborn... Into the body and situation they deserve...

edit on 14-11-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

what you say may or may not be true, The Loving Father is not just Loving, He will also do Justice, even Justice to Himself, ya he is Forgiving and Merciful but then the one who wants that should come to him humbly and ask. And what greater injustice than to worship anything else other than the true Creator or associate with Him the deities that did nothing.
Its like you save my life once and i am flowing with thanks to your neigbour, thanking him, giving him gifts, praising him. If i knowingly do it. Wouldnt i be very unjust.
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And not to mention the injustice the good children of God would feel when they see nobody being punished? Did they do good and suffered in vain all their life?
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Ya i know that they enjoyed the peace and satisfaction that comes with being close to God.
But is good and evil equal? No.
Then there should be difference in the consequence too.
.
Do you meant people who dont believe Jesus pbuh as divine and atheist etc would be reborn? Till they believe?

reply to post by logical7


Don't ask questions and then just reject answers in favor of what you want to believe, or were raised to believe. And yes, I do see that mentality sneaking through your posts.

No loving parent condemns their children. To hell with righteousness - righteousness is the act of believing you are better than someone else, or they are below your standards. It has caused more pain than healing!

Punishment for taking up sins of the world is lack of understanding. And eventually, you will find yourself in a situation where you either destroy yourself, or learn from your mistakes. Because of this, hell is worse than useless. It is an abomination, the exact opposite of everything that this universe thrives on, and as such, it simply cannot be.

The only hell that exists, is within our minds. Terrorize yourself into endlessly seeking the perfection you'll never find, if you want to, but it will all be in vain until you learn to accept the possibilities that your imperfections embody. Perfection is hell, because only in learning through your imperfections can you truly experience joy. Perfection leaves no goals, no achievements, no forward or anything. It is meaningless, fruitless, without challenge or change. Is monotony your goal? Is conformity your goal?

Please keep this in mind.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


my aim to put this post is obvious, i am challenging the belief that one son dying for the sins of all is not enough and neither just if people who carry their own sins would be thrown in hell by the same theology. Either just death for all or hell for the son. Which i dont want but just speaking hypothetically.
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But then the theology of god dying for sins and the theory of salvation through the son doesnt stand.
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I know like you said before that i am trying to find logic of a myth.
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Its a myth to you but not christians. I am not an atheist, i am a muslim and things make sense in islam if anyone cares to look beyond the MSM and fundamental christian misinformation.
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I am looking for a convincing answer to my OP with reasons, dint get it yet..

reply to post by Akragon


Free will and experiences because there are so many of them there are many different people and situations. We could see it as condemning but that's because we don't see the grander scheme.

reply to post by logical7

what you say may or may not be true, The Loving Father is not just Loving, He will also do Justice, even Justice to Himself, ya he is Forgiving and Merciful but then the one who wants that should come to him humbly and ask. And what greater injustice than to worship anything else other than the true Creator or associate with Him the deities that did nothing.
Its like you save my life once and i am flowing with thanks to your neigbour, thanking him, giving him gifts, praising him. If i knowingly do it. Wouldnt i be very unjust.

In your example... You're basically saying i saved your life for the sake of praise... IF i save a persons life i seek no reward other then knowing i did what had to be done...

So let me ask... IF you save a persons life... and they do not thank you, or give you any reward... would you regret saving said person?

And not to mention the injustice the good children of God would feel when they see nobody being punished?

So a "good child of God" looks forward to watching others being punished for their sins?

Interesting... :shk:

Did they do good and suffered in vain all their life?

Take that one up with your God...

Ya i know that they enjoyed the peace and satisfaction that comes with being close to God.
But is good and evil equal? No.
Then there should be difference in the consequence too.

Obviously... As i stated in my original post... They are reborn Into the body and situation they deserve

Do you meant people who dont believe Jesus pbuh as divine and atheist etc would be reborn? Till they believe?

I didn't say that... Athiests have their purpose just like everyone else in the phyical world...

Do you believe that people MUST believe in Jesus to gain access to the afterlife?

Everyone makes it there my friend... but not everyone will be happy once they get there...

Do you honestly believe that a person whos never heard of Jesus will be condemed to hell, even if they've lived a good life?

Thats a little sad... Typical of a Christian's belief, but sad none the less

reply to post by Akragon


you took my example in a way that i dint mean, i would save a person or do any good just for the sake of God not for praise.
I wanted to you to just look at that example objectively for justice and compare the analogy with God giving us this life, giving everything we have and then i go and worship a stone, a man etc that can do nothing, isnt that injustice to the Creator?
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And when you say that people who dint believe in God would not be happy in the afterlife, i agree with you.
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When everyone would be given their account and they would see their actions in this life, either they would be happy or filled with regret and suffer.
.
And about a person who never knew about Jesus pbuh or Muhammad pbuh, he wouldnt end up in hell for that. Every baby is born with the true belief and the right tendancy, its called "fitrah" in arabic, only later the baby may drift away by influence of surrounding.and so its said that every baby is born muslim(adverb-surrendered to God not the religious group/label) and so when someone accepts islam he/she is called reverted rather than converted.
But ya, knowing about the prophets and rejecting them is not the same. Bible and Quran give a good idea about people who rejected a prophet.

reply to post by logical7

And about a person who never knew about Jesus pbuh or Muhammad pbuh, he wouldnt end up in hell for that. Every baby is born with the true belief and the right tendancy, its called "fitrah" in arabic, only later the baby may drift away by influence of surrounding.

Bull crap. If a child is raised away from all spirituality, I can guarantee that chances are equally good that it may be Christian, Buddhit, or Taoist.

Quite honestly, you are full of it.

reply to post by logical7

you took my example in a way that i dint mean, i would save a person or do any good just for the sake of God not for praise.

My mistake... i have a knack for finding flaws in peoples arguements.

I wanted to you to just look at that example objectively for justice and compare the analogy with God giving us this life, giving everything we have and then i go and worship a stone, a man etc that can do nothing, isnt that injustice to the Creator?

So God is Jealous?

That means you believe the OT God is the true God?

I do not... I personally believe the OT God is an imposter...

And when you say that people who dint believe in God would not be happy in the afterlife, i agree with you.

I didn't say that... You're putting words in my mouth.... I said "some people" will not be happy... I didn't specify who... that is not my call.

When everyone would be given their account and they would see their actions in this life, either they would be happy or filled with regret and suffer.

At which point, do you believe people that regret their lives will be destoyed or given another chance?

Does your God forgive or condem?

And about a person who never knew about Jesus pbuh or Muhammad pbuh, he wouldnt end up in hell for that. Every baby is born with the true belief and the right tendancy, its called "fitrah" in arabic, only later the baby may drift away by influence of surrounding.and so its said that every baby is born muslim(adverb-surrendered to God not the religious group/label) and so when someone accepts islam he/she is called reverted rather than converted.
But ya, knowing about the prophets and rejecting them is not the same. Bible and Quran give a good idea about people who rejected a prophet.

This is true... babies are always innocent...

But i was talking about full grown adults that have lived their lives and never once heard of your prophet or Jesus... Do you believe Hell is their destination?