State's Secession is a Viral Meme. You can't leave!

Some more grist for the mill:

Just a quick thought I have been mulling over for the last 2-3 years.

I believe that every state has the right to secede from the Union based on the violation of article 4 section 4 of the constitution.

My thought process on the issue:

United States Constitution Article 4 Section 4 reads in part:

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, …

The 17th amendment provides for the direct election of US Senators.

Carefully reading Article 4, you should notice that the STATES are guaranteed a republican form of government. Since the states no longer have a vote (appointment of senators by their legislatures) in the United States government, this guarantee of a republican form of government to the STATES has been violated. The states as signatories to the constitution are direct parties in the contract represented by the US constitution. Since the contract has been breached, the parties are free to nullify the compact.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


Ha. I love the armchair revolutionaries on here. What a joke.

Here's a really interesting image. I'm laughing so hard here.




They can't even spell it right and should have their citizenship revoked just for that.

reply to post by Druid42


There is a solution. Get out of US Inc. and join the Republic. The Federal gov legislated into existence a corporation in the District of Columbia through the Act of 1871. This corporation went bankrupt in 1933 and was taken over by it's creditors. Are you a member of this corporation? More than likely, yes. US citizens are members of this corporation that is pretending to be a lawful government. Americans are not members of this corporation. We are members of the Republic.

I filed a copy of my recorded UCC-1 Financing Statement with my employer and was declared, by them, to be TAX EXEMPT. I am not a member of the United States Corporation so I am not liable for the income tax which is collected by the INTERNAL Revenue Service. Look at the IRS code and you will see just who is liable for this tax. Internal, meaning inside the corporation. The states don't need to secede. They just need to abolish their corporate charters as far as I know.
This whole whoopiddy-doo about secession will probably just get a bunch of people killed. Or they'll just ignore it all. You've seen or read about how Corp US treats those members who don't bow down and worship them.

reply to post by hanyak69


Unfortunately, you don't understand the difference between the United States and the states of the union. To see what happened you only need to go back to 1871. Look up the Act of 1871. (Incorporation of United States). While you're at it, look up the United States Bankruptcy of 1933 and find out what happened to this corporation called United States. Learn who you are. And what you are. Heh, by THEIR definition, I am not a person. A person, according to THEM, is a : trust, a corporation. That's not me! Is it you?

12160.info...

reply to post by Druid42


I think we're headed for that Civil War many books have portrayed.
This is serious business.

reply to post by Druid42


Your assessment that the Declaration is not "legal" is nonsense. Self-evident truths do not need to be authorized. There is no argument against this truth that is anything more than abusive shepherding or evidence of Stockholm Syndrome.

Secession is a civil and legally considerate way of expressing a natural right. But, just as with the American Civil War, the Federalists would be the first to resort to violence while feigning fault to be upon the Secessionists. Such is the way of the "criminal that claims to be the victim" (unwise shepherds).

However, your admonishment is accurate and I concur; Offensive violence is entirely inhuman and whoever initiates large scale violent conduct should be stamped out of this world.

Originally posted by VaterOrlaag
reply to post by jiggerj

 

They haven't attacked us for 11 years now. Oh wait, that was an inside job.

What makes you think that anyone is going to attack the US if a few states secede?

I heard 20 to 21 states thinking of splitting off from the U.S.

Originally posted by oper8zhin
So far it looks like all the [snip] Conservative Red states looking to leave.

All this over a BLACK President who wants to help the working folks more than the wealthy ones??

Geez!!

edit on 11/11/12 by masqua because: Edited comment lacking civility

I'm not sure whether or not that is sarcasm... If it isn't - then get a grip. It isn't about black or white or any other color. It's about Socialistic and Oppressive government vs. individual liberty and personal responsibility.

And if you believe he (or the majority of other democrats in higher office) really wants to "help" the working folks, you really haven't done your homework regarding the poverty-democrat connection.

Happy researching...

80,000 signatures for Texas I don't think any other state will get nearly as many

Originally posted by Bildo
reply to post by Druid42

 

There is a solution. Get out of US Inc. and join the Republic. The Federal gov legislated into existence a corporation in the District of Columbia through the Act of 1871. This corporation went bankrupt in 1933 and was taken over by it's creditors. Are you a member of this corporation? More than likely, yes. US citizens are members of this corporation that is pretending to be a lawful government. Americans are not members of this corporation. We are members of the Republic.

I filed a copy of my recorded UCC-1 Financing Statement with my employer and was declared, by them, to be TAX EXEMPT. I am not a member of the United States Corporation so I am not liable for the income tax which is collected by the INTERNAL Revenue Service. Look at the IRS code and you will see just who is liable for this tax. Internal, meaning inside the corporation. The states don't need to secede. They just need to abolish their corporate charters as far as I know.
This whole whoopiddy-doo about secession will probably just get a bunch of people killed. Or they'll just ignore it all. You've seen or read about how Corp US treats those members who don't bow down and worship them.

So how exactly does a UCC-1 Financing Statement help you out... I'm totally not following you.

Not that wikipedia is THE fount of truth, but here is what they have to say on the topic:

A UCC-1 financing statement (an abbreviation for Uniform Commercial Code-1) is a legal form that a creditor files to give notice that it has or may have an interest in the personal property of a debtor (a person who owes a debt to the creditor as typically specified in the agreement creating the debt).[1] This form is filed in order to "perfect" a creditor's security interest by giving public notice that there is a right to take possession of and sell certain assets for repayment of a specific debt with a certain priority. Such notices of sale are often found in the local newspapers. Once the form has been filed, the creditor establishes a relative priority with other creditors of the debtor.[2] This process is also called "perfecting the security interest" in the property, and this type of loan is a secured loan.[3] A financing statement may also be filed in the real estate records by a lessor of fixtures to establish the priority of the lessor's rights against a holder of a mortgage or other lien on the real property. The creditor's rights against the debtor and the lessor's rights against the lessee are based on the credit documents and the lease, respectively, and not the financing statement.

So what exactly are you getting at?

so lets say the states secede...... and then what?? what about the half of the state that doesn't want to secede? what if they can't afford to move? i know i can't leave texas legally unless i give my kids to their father. not to mention the COST of moving out of state.

seriously... the realistic logistics of it are stupid. half the people would revolt and the entire nation would be in turmoil. it would be asking for a serious civil war just because obama is the president for 4 more years. how 'bout in another four years you VOTE.

the republicans survived clinton and they can live through obama.

get over it.

Originally posted by Bildo
reply to post by hanyak69

 

Unfortunately, you don't understand the difference between the United States and the states of the union. To see what happened you only need to go back to 1871. Look up the Act of 1871. (Incorporation of United States). While you're at it, look up the United States Bankruptcy of 1933 and find out what happened to this corporation called United States. Learn who you are. And what you are. Heh, by THEIR definition, I am not a person. A person, according to THEM, is a : trust, a corporation. That's not me! Is it you?

12160.info...

Your link requires a login...

2nd line....

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady

Originally posted by Druid42
reply to post by jiggerj

 

That would be the best time to attack. Thus the emphasis on the bogus petitions.

The world has to love us about now.

Y'all are nuts to think people will join the Administration for fear of being attacked. That would be the ultimate cowardice. These petitions are just people sending the government a message of how pi$$ed off they feel. Does anybody think the White House will do anything with these?

Nobody needs to attack us now. It's two elections too late. The revolution occurred within the government.

Communist Party Leader: Obama Victory “Dawn of a New Era”
www.trevorloudon.com...

Only change I see is that the Dems should be labelled the Red party now.

edit on 11/11/2012 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)

Slight correction - 3 elections too late (arguably 4)...

Oh - and if you are really of a conspiratorial bent, then the real coup happened when Hinckley tried to assassinate President Reagan. The specter of Prescott Bush looms large.

Originally posted by timmhaines
reply to post by Druid42

 

So we would have to build a border around Texa?. What would they do if Mexico attacked? Doesn't sound like a smart move. Food would have to be imported.

Out of all the states, California and Texas are the only two that have the inertia/critical mass to operate as sovereign nations...

Covering even a minor number of the reasons would be book length, but importing food wouldn't be an issue.

Out of all these arguments about why it can't be done, the one revolving around how financially intertwined we are to each other, to our state, to corporations, and to foreign creditors at national, local, and individual levels is the best. He who has the gold makes the rules... The banking PTB are holding the reins and we dance to their tune.

reply to post by Druid42

and there is no precedent in the Constitution for secession. Messy, huh?

There wasn't one in British law during the colony rebellion, either.

But ultimately, your statement is irrelevant, as the constitution is a voluntary agreement between the states and the federal government.

The federal government doesn't have the Jurisdiction to prevent states from seceding from the union.

Originally posted by VaterOrlaag
reply to post by Ahabstar

 

Is it a requirement of moderators to be extremely ignorant?

No more than it is thought to be a requirement by some members to be snarky and uncivil when trying to prove a point. The side-effect is a special condition of relativity of Godwin's Rule in that if you can't express yourself in a polite manner, your point tends to be dismissed.

I'm sure you're not aware that red states suck away a lot of the tax dollars from the blue states.

I am sure you missed the part where I explained about large cities versus small communities turn states blue for the most part in the ratio of red counties to blue counties. And that large cities in those states consume the most in welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing, etc.

Obama Supporters Subsidize Romney Supporters

Blue States Subsidize Red States Studies show that states that elect Democrats contribute the most in federal taxes relative to what they consume in government services. Conversely, many states that elect Republicans contribute the least in taxes relative to the services they consume. This is true even though many Democratic states contain large, poor, urban populations of color.

With the exception of New Mexico and Virginia, 8, count the, EIGHT of the most tax-dependent states are Red states (Mississippi, Alaska, Louisiana, West Virginia, North Dakota, Alabama, South Dakota and Kentucky).

These are also states that have far lower standards of living, lack of large industry, lower populations and the most important factor--large amounts of farmland. Why is that important? Farm land subsidized by the Department of Agriculture to not grow crops in order to keep food prices artificially higher. As farming efficiency has produced higher yields over the years, a bumper crop devalues the market value and the farmer risks losing the farm or deciding to quit farming altogether. You may wish to read up on the Milk Wars for a better understanding.

Please do your research next time.

You will notice that the large portion of the post dealt with the question of secession and the Constitution more than welfare, Red/Blue states and whether or not a condition to being a moderator of ATS is being ignorant. Which is the topic of topic of the thread as evident by the title "State's Secession is a Viral Meme. You can't leave!" Some would say that your post was off-topic, others would say it was ill-mannered. As for me, I see it more as reacting rather than reading.

Also, if the most tax-dependent states wish to secede, they'll lose quite a bit of money.

All depends on what you believe in more, your right to self-determination including the ability to fail to comfortably achieve a goal or that the US dollar will hold and then gain value in a job market that has bleak forecasts for the immediate future.

Not a very bright move, eh?

Considering that most of the oil refining for the entire country comes from Louisiana, Texas and Oklahoma; the majority of all food and agriculture comes from the Midwest (mostly all Red States) and a considerable amount of the serving military as well as bases are in the poorest states that you listed, I would say that dropping the attitude and listening to those people's concerns before you found yourself cold, hungry and defenseless would be a very bright move. Especially since a good number of those Blue States up on the Northeast have about $50 Billion worth of more immediate problems to contend with at the moment...namely being cold, hungry and defenseless enough already without having to wonder if the people coming across the country offering to lend a hand has paid dues to a union or not.

reply to post by Ahabstar


I must applaud your response. Very thorough.

Considering that most of the oil refining for the entire country comes from Louisiana, Texas and Oklahoma; the majority of all food and agriculture comes from the Midwest (mostly all Red States)

That is what people are not realizing. Their food and gasoline comes from the states that lean strongly Republican. If they live in cities, they are far removed from the work that goes into producing crops, the work involved in extracting oil from the ground. Yet, the cities voted Blue.

I have niece in Texas, and she tells me that the local conversation is pro-secession. She says they have been talking about it for years. I didn't know that. To know that there is a state having pre-defined conversations about the topic is revealing. Especially a state, such as Texas, that contributes the lion's share to the economy.

To see metropolitan areas voting blue, especially in my home state, and the rural areas red, leads me to believe there is a bigger disparity than what the MSM leads us to believe.

Time will tell.

reply to post by jiggerj


So?

They can't.

And someone starred this.

Do any of you read anymore?

reply to post by Ahabstar


If they have all these resources available to them, then why suck away tax dollars from other states?

That's my question.

And why are these states always backwards in social progress?