State's Secession is a Viral Meme. You can't leave!

There has been a rash of petitions posted on the Whitehouse.gov Website, stating that 20 plus states want to "peacefully" leave the Union.

People need to realize this is not a valid attempt at secession.

It is a viral attempt by people who are frustrated by the recent election to make a statement. I find it both admirable and foolish at the same time. They are taking it to the Whitehouse website, and the President himself will be told about it. That's admirable. However, you have to register to sign, in order for it to be a valid petition, and the foolishness of people who are signing their real names is apparent. Do you really want to go on a "no fly list", and be marked by the government as a "domestic terrorist"? Causing dissent could be taken seriously.

Refreshing what was said earlier, the proper method would be for a state's legislature to draft up secession paperwork, and have it signed by the governor of that state, then as a group, the governors would present their suit to the Supreme Court, in a law suit. The states would have to sue the United States government for their right to secede. It'd be the biggest legal mess of all times.

There are many intermediate steps before that would ever occur. There is no precedent for this, and the constitution itself would be examined. Washington would go into turmoil. The country would become divided.

Here's the clincher (we are all familiar with these words!):

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Hey, that gives us the right to secede, right? Not hardly. Those words, little did you know, are from The Declaration of Independence, circa 1776. The Constitution, the law of the land, wasn't formed until circa 1787. The Declaration is not a legal document, and there is no precedent in the Constitution for secession. Messy, huh?

Although the Declaration of Independence stands with the Constitution as a founding document of the United States of America, its position in U.S. law is much less certain than that of the Constitution. The Declaration has been recognized as the founding act of law establishing the United States as a sovereign and independent nation, and Congress has placed it at the beginning of the U.S. Code, under the heading "The Organic Laws of the United States of America." The Supreme Court, however, has generally not considered it a part of the organic law of the country. For example, although the Declaration mentions a right to rebellion, this right, particularly with regard to violent rebellion, has not been recognized by the Supreme Court and other branches of the federal government. The most notable failure to uphold this right occurred when the Union put down the rebellion by the Southern Confederacy in the Civil War.

Terra Incognito. Sobering, for sure.

Then there is this little tid-bit:

Think Government Is Corrupt? You May Face 10 Years In Jail

Subversives who think government is corrupt and should be controlled by the people face 10 years in prison and a $25,000 dollar fine if they fail to register with authorities in South Carolina, in another chilling example of how free speech and dissent is being criminalized in America.

every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States … shall register with the Secretary of State.”

Under the sweeping terms of the law, members of tax protest organizations, the Tea Party movement and the States’ Rights movement based in South Carolina are

all domestic terrorists

if they fail to register their dissent with the authorities.

Each member has to register, or you are a Domestic Terrorist. Really?

police are being trained that libertarians, gun owners, Ron Paul supporters and anyone who is mildly political is a domestic extremist and a potential terrorist

I honestly don't know where this is going. It doesn't look good.

Of course, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Whether intentionally or not, you are misunderstanding the Declaration of Independence. It does not "give" us rights. We have them given from GOD. We have the right and duty to change the government with violence if necessary. That is why we have the second amendment. It isn't about hunting or self defense. The purpose of the second amendment is for ultimate recourse against a corrupt dictatorial government. The founding fathers made the point perfectly clear saying, among other things, "from time to time the tree of liberty needs be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants". That time is now. The current regime has all the powers that Hitler, Mao, Stalin and other dictators had. It is time to stand up and resist tyranny. Here is another quote from the founding fathers.

"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Seems to me that those holding high office who do not uphold protect and defend the Constitution are the domestic terrorists. Who are the ones who should be imprisoned?

reply to post by DarthMuerte

We have the right and duty to change the government with violence if necessary

Use violence and you'll be in a FEMA camp, labeled as a Terrorist. All our rights are slowly fading away. If we try to overthrow the government, it won't be pretty.

My point was is the the Declaration, while stating we may replace the government and redress, it's not considered a law. Those words are not in the actual Constitution. The Constitution is what the Supreme Court uses when setting a new precedent, and there is nothing in that grand ol' document stating our right to secede.

reply to post by ajay59


I would tend to agree with you. The real terrorists are the ones taking away our rights.

But they are in charge.

reply to post by Druid42


Wouldn't such a split weaken the nation (and whatever new nation arises) to the point where we would be ripe for attack from those that hate us?

Originally posted by Druid42
reply to post by DarthMuerte

 

We have the right and duty to change the government with violence if necessary

Use violence and you'll be in a FEMA camp, labeled as a Terrorist. All our rights are slowly fading away. If we try to overthrow the government, it won't be pretty.

My point was is the the Declaration, while stating we may replace the government and redress, it's not considered a law. Those words are not in the actual Constitution. The Constitution is what the Supreme Court uses when setting a new precedent, and there is nothing in that grand ol' document stating our right to secede.

I honestly don't know if you are being obtuse or if you really don't understand. The law is irrelevant here. I am pretty sure that the revolutionary war was "against the law". When I joined the military, my oath was to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC. What the current regime and the previous regime have done to the Constitution is unacceptable. There comes a time when in the course of events we must decide to stand for our principles or to lie down and accept what is being done. The political process has been proven too corrupt and we can no longer rely upon it to make our will known. Peaceful secession is the last option before violent revolution is all that remains. Nowhere in the Constitution does the document state that the voluntary association of the states is "permanent" and unalterable. The nation is divided between 2 paradigms that cannot long peacefully coexist. Violence is already being used and being threatened in many more cases against those who no longer accept the dictates of the regime. Violence is already being done, the question is will we continue to permit it, or will we stand up before it is too late?

reply to post by Druid42


Now That IS in the constitution, so THEY are the ones committing terrorism and treason! Should these people make a move to remove the freedom of any individual, it is THEY who are "breaking the law", and should be relocated to a FEMA camp!

reply to post by jiggerj


That would be the best time to attack. Thus the emphasis on the bogus petitions.

The world has to love us about now.

It qill never happen. One example will show why. Take Texas for one example, or as some might plead, "Please take Texas." As of 2006, there were 253,000 federal employees in Texas. Dump these people in the unemployment pool there and eliminate the sales taxes paid by these people and you have a wrecked economy, even without considering the devastating impact of losing all military spending in the state.
Waco and Killeen, TX would wither away and die. Ft Hood pumps $9.3 Billion into the local economy. And 24,600 houses would be dumped on the local economy.
And you get similar numbers from Fort Bliss (El Paso) and Ft. Sam Houston (San Antonio) and NAS Corpus Christi, and Randolph, Laughlin, Dyess, Goodfellow, Lackland and Sheppard Air Force Bases. When Bergstrom AFB was closed in 1993, it pounded the Austin area.
They really should be careful of what they ask for.

reply to post by DarthMuerte

What the current regime and the previous regime have done to the Constitution is unacceptable

I'll take it you are referring to the Patriot Act and the formation of the DHS? I have my own beefs about them.

Create a huge super-agency, give it unlimited powers, call it the Department of Homeland Security, and default to that in case of the next crisis.

The DHS has so much authority, we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg yet.

You are a true patriot. You do understand. Something must be done, agreed.

reply to post by F4guy


I think Texas would be able to stand on it's own. There's something about human spirit to attest to. It would be tough, but persevere.

Fact still remains, it's unprecedented. There has never been a peaceful split from the Union.

reply to post by DarthMuerte

I honestly don't know if you are being obtuse or if you really don't understand. The law is irrelevant here. I am pretty sure that the revolutionary war was "against the law". When I joined the military, my oath was to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC. What the current regime and the previous regime have done to the Constitution is unacceptable. There comes a time when in the course of events we must decide to stand for our principles or to lie down and accept what is being done. The political process has been proven too corrupt and we can no longer rely upon it to make our will known. Peaceful secession is the last option before violent revolution is all that remains. Nowhere in the Constitution does the document state that the voluntary association of the states is "permanent" and unalterable. The nation is divided between 2 paradigms that cannot long peacefully coexist. Violence is already being used and being threatened in many more cases against those who no longer accept the dictates of the regime. Violence is already being done, the question is will we continue to permit it, or will we stand up before it is too late?

WOW!!!!! Very well written comment! So many buried gems in it........................You obviously get it my friend!


It could very well be seen as a lose-lose situtation for us. However, will it be written in history that we gave in and excepted our slavery, or will it be remembered that the people of the US stood up and fought for their freedoms........very troubling times ahead indeed....

I thank you for putting some more pieces into the puzzle. I must say that I had not realized that the Declaration of Independence was not a part of our laws, but a part of our principles. This puts it all into a new perspective. If this continues, they will have a large number of individuals that have purposefully placed before their country that they are discontent with the situation. This should not make them domestic terrorists. It should be our right to bring before our leaders their grievances. We should not be threatened with any form of crime for that. A good leader will listen to those complaints to see which way they can build a bridge between the two sides.

reply to post by Attrei

I agree that good leaders would listen. The problem is that we don't have any with the possible exception of Ron Paul.

I, like many now, before and likely to come after see the other important documents like the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation and so on..., as the blue prints and encyclopedias, the building blocks as it were, of the U.S. Constitution. Interpretation of any should be left to the understanding and idealism of the time when they were written. To use modern thinking to try to undermine the meaning is evil in itself.

Originally posted by Druid42
Think Government Is Corrupt? You May Face 10 Years In Jail

Subversives who think government is corrupt and should be controlled by the people face 10 years in prison and a $25,000 dollar fine if they fail to register with authorities in South Carolina, in another chilling example of how free speech and dissent is being criminalized in America.

every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States … shall register with the Secretary of State.”

Under the sweeping terms of the law, members of tax protest organizations, the Tea Party movement and the States’ Rights movement based in South Carolina are

all domestic terrorists

if they fail to register their dissent with the authorities.

Each member has to register, or you are a Domestic Terrorist. Really?

police are being trained that libertarians, gun owners, Ron Paul supporters and anyone who is mildly political is a domestic extremist and a potential terrorist

I honestly don't know where this is going. It doesn't look good.

Of course, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I am absolutely shocked and disgusted. And this is more than a little scary.

Another great point from the article you linked, for those who hadn't yet considered the real purpose and ultimate effect of a law like this:

Of course, since nobody is going to register as a “subversive” with South Carolina authorities, their failure to “comply” with the regulation will later be used against them as a means of eliciting criminal charges, in what represents a clear end run around the First Amendment. The government isn’t going to just come out all guns blazing and ban free speech, they are simply going to make anyone who refuses to register for permission a criminal for failing to adhere to a separate mandate.

reply to post by Attrei


That very threat levied against ANY American is what is disturbing.

You are fine if you don't speak out.

Loss of freedom to further the agenda. Protecting the citizens can only be achieved by taking away all their rights. Hardly.

Solutions?

If any of those petitions were to reach 25,000, what would happen next? What would have to be the actual process for something like this to happen? IS there a process in place for a state to separate from the US?

reply to post by Druid42


Solution? The answer to 1984 is 1776.