Russian Sub Skirts Coast

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


I didn't say their military was pathetic, I said it was in bad shape. And equipment doesn't matter if you don't have the training. But a number of their APCs had armor that was so bad the troops chose to ride on the outside instead of in them. There are a number of places you can read unbiased reports on the fight, and most agree that the state of Russian equipment was very poor, but they had better training and were more used to said equipment.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by jibeho

 

The U.S. Military has the entire Atlantic Ocean WIRED FOR SOUND. The U.S. Navy knows EXACTLY where a Russian is located at any time.

It is a long time practice of U.S. Navy Subs to lie in wait near Russian Sub bases and then follow closely behind these Russian Subs as they leave their bases. U.S. Navy Subs are NEVER TALKED ABOUT as far as their activities and U.S. Subs are the quietest and most capable in the World.

Split Infinity

We may have the ocean wired for sound, but there are also numerous deficiencies in that system. For example, different water layers in the ocean conduct sound differently, and may in effect be largely insulated from one another. It's not hard to imagine that the Russians have been testing these out, to determine which layers they can cruise by in which provoke a reaction, and which layers serve to cloak their presence.

Underestimating an adversary is a fatal mistake, and every technological trick also has its own downside or weak spot. The Russians aren't dumb and despite their having less wealth, they have kept up with us in most arenas that count.

Also, they managed to hold onto manned space travel when their economy collapsed, and we didn't. This is an illustration that we aren't always the best despite throwing the most money at any given problem.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

I didn't say their military was pathetic, I said it was in bad shape. And equipment doesn't matter if you don't have the training. But a number of their APCs had armor that was so bad the troops chose to ride on the outside instead of in them. There are a number of places you can read unbiased reports on the fight, and most agree that the state of Russian equipment was very poor, but they had better training and were more used to said equipment.

Their training is pretty well regarded to equal out own, especially with elite units. Of course, with the grunts, if you can hit a man sized target at 50 yards you're "good to go" be it in the USA or Russia.

As far as riding on the outside of APCs, it's not because the armor was bad, it was simply because there was no organized or effective fighting from the Georgians after the first couple of hours, in the invaded areas.

The Russians are a credible adversary. This is all that needs to be said.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


The U.S. Military RARELY leaves anything to chance and if anything...tends to OVERESTIMATE adversaries. It is well known that reported BLUNDERS tend to be disinformation. This does not mean that they do not make mistakes...but as far as tracking Subs...the U.S. Military is way ahead of the curve.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


US military blunders are often just blunders. Our military has had enough issues just stomping around in Afghanistan, facing an enemy with late 19th century tactics and arms, that I find it difficult to believe that we'd have an easy time against an actual modern military.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


The US military in Afghanistan is also fighting like they did in Vietnam, where Washington and higher ups have way too much control over what's going on on the battlefield. Like the policy that they couldn't shoot towards a village, just in case they hurt someone.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


This is what the Military wants some to believe. You cannot compare what the U.S. has done in Afghanistan to what would occur if the U.S. Military was tasked with fighting an advanced foe.

The Chinese are well aware of this...Google Chinese Military Leadership invited to observe U.S. Naval Exercises Norfolk Virginia and other U.S. Military Bases.

After this occurred the Chinese Contingent was in a state of SHOCK! Much to the chagrin of the Chinese Communist Party...their own Navy Leadership stated that China was DECADES BEHIND the U.S. Military.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

The US military in Afghanistan is also fighting like they did in Vietnam, where Washington and higher ups have way too much control over what's going on on the battlefield. Like the policy that they couldn't shoot towards a village, just in case they hurt someone.

Of course, if the goal of the thing is to win hears and minds we can't just shoot randomly into villages. Not that I agree with this idea, I think that if you are going to war, it should be for moral reasons and you should put the screws down and truly defeat the enemy in every way possible until they surrender as a whole - Germany and Japan style.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

This is what the Military wants some to believe. You cannot compare what the U.S. has done in Afghanistan to what would occur if the U.S. Military was tasked with fighting an advanced foe.

The Chinese are well aware of this...Google Chinese Military Leadership invited to observe U.S. Naval Exercises Norfolk Virginia and other U.S. Military Bases.

After this occurred the Chinese Contingent was in a state of SHOCK! Much to the chagrin of the Chinese Communist Party...their own Navy Leadership stated that China was DECADES BEHIND the U.S. Military.

Split Infinity

If the US military fought an advanced foe, we have no idea what would happen. Truth be told, we haven't been on even footing with an adversary since the second world war. It's not even possible any more - all our potential advanced foes have the bomb. A decapitation strike would probably occur, but it would no doubt be followed with the same thing by the foe (or the other way round) and then both sides would be about as advanced as WWI troopers but with more automatic weapons.

The Chinese play a different game than we do. They would not fight the same kind of conventional, mounted infantry war that we would. There would be a lot of misdirection, subversion, and the like. coupled with low-tech unmounted infantry action in mainly difficult terrain.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou

The U.S. would NEVER fight the Chinese on the Ground. The Chinese have ZERO Power Projection Capabilities and the U.S. would simply destroy any Chinese Troop Carriers on the Ocean or Air and contain the Chinese.

No matter how many Soldiers a Country has...if you have no ability to Project this Force or have little Mobility...huge numbers just turn into TARGETS. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

The U.S. would NEVER fight the Chinese on the Ground. The Chinese have ZERO Power Projection Capabilities and the U.S. would simply destroy any Chinese Troop Carriers on the Ocean or Air and contain the Chinese.

No matter how many Soldiers a Country has...if you have no ability to Project this Force or have little Mobility...huge numbers just turn into TARGETS. Split Infinity

The Chinese have power projection capabilities. They can load a hundred thousand conscripts onto a cargo ship at a crack and deliver them in secret, undetected until they are actually disembarking. They will not fight the war we want them to fight. They will fight dirty, they will not put a couple hundred marines onto a grey-painted ship and unload them at a beachhead like we will.

They will not be concerned with air power because they are interested in strictly regional domination. Figure, one out of five Chinese restaurant proprietors are working undercover already. That's a conservative estimate. They are advanced intel, recon, and saboteurs. Their job will be to soften up the locals for the invasion force, which will come as a total shock / surprise.

Our technological superiority will not count for # once # hits the fan. In order to ascertain the true capabilities of a potential foe, we have to be realistic about their capabilities and their potential strategy. They will NOT fight the war we are preparing for. This is their strategy in a nutshell.

If we want to actually prepare for an aggressive Chinese move, we have to consider the truth of the situation. The boss needs to hear this. Books have been written about this already.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


Uh...100,000 Soldiers in one cargo ship? Even if each Soldier stood up and occupied just 1 square yard this would mean the ship would have to have a cargo hold that is OVER 300,000 SQUARE FEET! To put this in perspective that would mean the Cargo Ship would be 200 feet wide by 1500 feet long! LOL!

There is no ship in the WORLD this BIG! LOL!
Split Infinity

reply to post by real_one


Russia didn't stop Sub/Bomber patrols because they were scared of the U.S., they stopped because of a massive lack of funding. So, no, love to burst your bubble, but Russia is not better than the U.S. Your Military is reliant on old outdated cold war era relics and "new" technology that the U.S. mastered during the 80's and 90's.

If we fight an "advanced" foe as you call it, Americans will not give a damn if we start killing civilians like what we do now in Afghanistan and Iraq. We kill one civilian and the whole world knows about it calling USA evil and blah blah blah, and the American public acts like they care when honestly, they really just don't. The people who pretend to care are just trying to make an image for themselves. You think USA has a bad image now? Imagine if we went in and invaded like the WW2 days? This puts strains on our troops we have to surgically take out enemy's with them taking cover behind children and women. I take it, it was different in WW2? Once we start losing more troops and equipment against a more advanced adversary Americans and the Government would care less what the world thinks and the unrestricted might of the United States will be applied.

Not only would we not care about our enemy, because quite frankly they dont care us, but our most advanced equipment will be put to use. They are not going to go into Hippie mentally, they are going to go to WW2 and Kick and take names later mentality. You're comparing apples to oranges here. Finally we get to see what the 53 Billion dollar black budget really consists of



en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by jibeho


yes..

they were let in .. dectected by senor nets LONG before they got in ..

so yea..

they were 'let in' ..

Originally posted by jibeho


Who said Russia is not a threat to the U.S.A.? I know the muscle flexing is a regular occurrence but, this is rather bold!! and the timing??

According to the source, this Sub was conducting anti-submarine warfare drills against U.S. ballistic and cruise missile submarines based at Kings Bay, Georgia.

Kings Bay is home to 2 guided missile subs and 6 nuclear missile subs. Wow!

freebeacon.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

This really bothers me as I live 30 miles from Kings Bay and It brings backs memories of the Cuban Missele Crisis when I was young. So they still are taking aim on my part of this rock. Will never forget how afraid people were then.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

Uh...100,000 Soldiers in one cargo ship? Even if each Soldier stood up and occupied just 1 square yard this would mean the ship would have to have a cargo hold that is OVER 300,000 SQUARE FEET! To put this in perspective that would mean the Cargo Ship would be 200 feet wide by 1500 feet long! LOL!

There is no ship in the WORLD this BIG! LOL!
Split Infinity

So you figure these guys would all just stand on the bottom of a giant cargo hold 80' tall?

Think layers, man.

And yes, the Chinese could cram that many guys into a cargo ship. Landing 5 simultaneously in ports on the W. Coast of the USA, using communist Union dockworkers as inside men, they could overwhelm local defenses and establish a pretty good defense-in-depth before we'd have any clue that it happened.

Originally posted by Antonio1
reply to post by real_one

 

Russia didn't stop Sub/Bomber patrols because they were scared of the U.S., they stopped because of a massive lack of funding. So, no, love to burst your bubble, but Russia is not better than the U.S. Your Military is reliant on old outdated cold war era relics and "new" technology that the U.S. mastered during the 80's and 90's.

Actually, if you've been paying attention Russia has not stopped bomber patrols or sub patrols.

Nobody said that Russia is better equipped, however they present a credible threat and if you don't see this you're blind.

reply to post by Komodo


You have no idea if the Russian subs were detected by sensor nets, and even if you did, you have no idea about the submarine patrols NOT detected by sensor nets. You'll never hear about sub patrols that penetrate the sensor nets successfully, and no doubt attempts to penetrate are successful much more often than you'd hear about.

I mean, yay, we're invincible!

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by Komodo

 

You have no idea if the Russian subs were detected by sensor nets, and even if you did, you have no idea about the submarine patrols NOT detected by sensor nets. You'll never hear about sub patrols that penetrate the sensor nets successfully, and no doubt attempts to penetrate are successful much more often than you'd hear about.

I mean, yay, we're invincible!

edit on 25-11-2012 by HattoriHanzou because: (no reason given)

You are greatly underestimating USN ASW capabilities.

Do you think Russia's subs sortie in a vacuum? The SOSUS network is only one tool that is functionally antiquated and used primarily by oceanographers, the U.S. has a myriad of space based and modern terrestrial intelligence assets that are extremely efficient.

The only reason you hear what you do through the MSM is because somebody in the halls of the Pentagon purposefully released the information to further an agenda, usually to put pressure on congress to approve funding or stave off budget cuts in a certain area.

Technological dominance aside, currently the U.S. SSN fleet alone outnumbers the entire Russian submarine fleet, SSN, SSBN and SSK by 2 to 1 (and only half of those are seaworthy at any given time.)

The legitimacy of the total hegemony currently enjoyed by the U.S. in undersea warfare is only debated on forums like ATS where few of the posters have any real idea of the subject.

If you are interested in facts, not internet fluff, have a read of the Center for Naval Warfare Studies thoughts on the topic regarding the PLAN ...

Chinese evaluations of the u.s. navy submarine force

The paper makes some very good points and is worth a quick look by anyone interested in the topic.



Edit: I noticed your Avatar says you are in Portland. Have you taken the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry tour of the U.S.S. Blueback down on the eastbank of the river?

OMSI is home to the U.S. Navy's last non-nuclear, fast-attack submarine, the USS Blueback (SS-581)!