Russian Sub Skirts Coast

reply to post by Zaphod58

Got that right. There are crazy people in this world that might do that stuff. I'm not one of them. I rage against that machine. So did Jim Morrison.

"And all the children are Insane".

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by CommandoJoe

 

Thanks for setting me straight on peace time operations of the boomer fleet. To a point. Staying "off the grid" is their job. They egress port at night in secret and follow routines that help lose any tails (like attack subs), then once "lost" they may lighten up a bit during "routine" operations.

I guarantee you there is at least one up under the ice as we speak. Not all, not all the time of course.

And by nuts, and I say this carefully for I respect your experience and patriotism. By "nuts" I mean me Personally, I would think it crazy to be part of any active unit who's responsibility may one day be to burn millions with nuclear fire. That kind of "nuts".

Thank you for your reply and sharing your experience.

Since I know you are into this kind of thing, I thought you might like to view this.

Yes, staying off the grid is a very important part of the job.
I'm sure it could happen, but in all of the deployments I was involved in, we never left port at night... We would submerge on the way out through the Straights of Juan de Fuca - and I'm sure that area has an extensive sonar net to keep eyes on any subs that might potentially track us...

I really doubt that many if any Tridents spend much time under the ice - there really is no reason for it. Our missile range is great enough that we don't need to be all that close to the target(s). In addition, in order to launch we would have to break through the ice exposing our position rather that launching while submerged as we normally would. And while it makes for dramatic pictures/video, breaking through the ice brings the risk of damage to the hull, launch doors, etc, and is not standard practice for any sub that I know of...

Also, if you know anything about the military, we train, train some more, train again, train all the time for many possibilities, even unusual ones. If an ice launch was standard practice or even a remote possibility, you can bet we would have trained for it - in all my deployments, that never came up...

I can understand if you had the perspective that we are a boat full of guys just waiting to "burn millions with nuclear fire" and thinking that is nuts, but we hoped that we never had to fulfill that part of our mission. In fact, our patrols are called "strategic deterrent patrols" - The other guy knows we're somewhere out there and won't attack because of it. You know, the whole mutually assured destruction thing... As I said in my previous post, the submarine force is made up of quality people - by and large, we are very intelligent and quite level headed.

reply to post by CommandoJoe


I've known several people from subs, and they were very level headed, and they were very nice people. I just am amazed at the dichotomy of having to have such intelligent people that know their missiles will kill millions, but are still able to launch them if necessary. In any other aspect of society, they would be labeled psychotic.

reply to post by CommandoJoe

I wrote you a big reply and when I went to post it I got this...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So, I'll leave it at that. Sorry

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by CommandoJoe

 

I've known several people from subs, and they were very level headed, and they were very nice people. I just am amazed at the dichotomy of having to have such intelligent people that know their missiles will kill millions, but are still able to launch them if necessary. In any other aspect of society, they would be labeled psychotic.

Agreed 100%, I have had a couple of decent friends who hailed from the cold war SSBN community in Washington.

IMHO some of the best, most professional and well grounded soldiers as a group are the sub crews.

Unlike AFSPC or AFGSC, which clearly departed from the razor focused nuclear strike force that was Curtiss Lemay's vision for SAC, the U.S. nuclear submarine force has remained on par with Hyman Rickover's original standards of hyper professionalism.

No offense to the current generation safeguarding our land based nuclear retaliatory capabilities but the ghost of General Lemay must have been turning in his grave over that Barksdale AFB cruise missile business a couple of years back.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by CommandoJoe

 

I've known several people from subs, and they were very level headed, and they were very nice people. I just am amazed at the dichotomy of having to have such intelligent people that know their missiles will kill millions, but are still able to launch them if necessary. In any other aspect of society, they would be labeled psychotic.

We knew the chance of having to launch missiles was VERY low and at that point we are just doing a job like anyone else... In reality, the actual purpose of an SSBN is to prevent attacks against our country - everyone knows that if they launch ICBM's against the US there will be retaliation from subs around the world and land based sites - this is what keeps the peace. It's not an ideal situation, but it is the situation we are in for the time being...
In the case where we had to launch, that means some serious SHTF and either we are retaliating against someone who has attacked us, or preventing someone from attacking our country, friends, and family... In either case, I'm sure I would be sick to my stomach at having to launch nuclear weapons at anyone...

How do you view the typical ground soldier that picks up a rifle in service of his country? They have killed a lot more people than any nuclear missile launched from a sub has (Zero)... Granted, the potential destructive power of an SSBN is far greater, but at the end of the day the result is the same - someone did their job by following orders and people died... Do you consider them psychotic as well, or do they get a pass because they might be of lower intelligence and are just pulling a trigger rather than operating nuclear reactors and ICBM systems? I'm not trying to be adversarial or anything, just curious...

reply to post by CommandoJoe


A ground soldier is different though. If I pick up an M-4, and start shooting back at someone, at most I'm going to kill probably three or four people. If I launch a single ICBM, I could be looking at the death of upwards of a million from that one weapon alone. That being said, I understand the mentality that you brought up, of if you had to launch, it was because someone else launched first, etc.

It's just always struck me as odd that you have to have people that are highly intelligent, and have a better understanding of what's going to happen when that missile hits than just about anyone else being in charge of launching them. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and if I've made it out to seem that way, then it's just my typing style. I'd rather have people that understand them better than most in charge of them, than someone that thinks they're just another weapon to use.

Originally posted by intrptr

Thats interesting to say the least. "Perfect timing" for the Russian snoop. Yah, Vee dock here for storm and listen to... you know... the weather."

That vessel called the AGI has been in the area since late September. The vessel was identified not as an AGI but an ocean going tug SB-406. No true AGI would be so open as to transmit international weather in Morse Code. The international weather format contains the latitude and longitude.

SB-406 image link

www.shipspotting.com...

The following link has the identity of the Russian Navy vessel that sought storm sanctuary.

therealrevo.com...

These are some examples of the Morse Code weather being transmitted by the vessel back in early October. At the time the X-37B was scheduled to be launched but was cancelled. RJQ84 is the vessel transmitting the weather and RIW is Moscow. The weather transmitted is international format. The following is the information stripped out to just the latitude and longitude and course speed group.
All the positions are off the Florida coast. I can sometimes pick up the transmissions here in the UK but sometimes use a remote receiver in Kentucky. According to a German radio enthusiast the vessel is now transmitting weather from the Gulf of Mexico.

Off Florida in the first week of October.

8345 Kilohertz

8345 RIW DE RJQ84 02001 99295 70781 22212 @0024Z

The above equates to

29.5N 78.1W Heading North East at 6-10 Knots


8345 RIW DE RJQ84 01181 99293 70794 22212 @0007Z

The above equates to

29.3N 79.4W Heading North East at 6-10 Knots


8345 RIW DE RJQ84 04001 99286 70784 22221 @0001Z

The above equates to

28.6N 78.4W Heading East at 1-5 Knots


At the time the X-37B was due to be launched and recovered in Florida. It was telling that this vessel arrived in the run up to the intended launch and loitered in the area. The launch was later cancelled and a later date during November was suggested in the media.

Another UK radio enthusiast also copied the vessel in Morse on the 29th September. The weather latitude and longitude was off the Florida Coast.

mt-milcom.blogspot.co.uk...

reply to post by tommyjo

It was telling that this vessel arrived in the run up to the intended launch and loitered in the area.

Thanks. Theeerrre's yur sign...

I knew I smelt a rat.

We do it to though I guess.

reply to post by intrptr


The Russian Navy Tug will probably stay hoping that the X-37b launch will take place at the end of the month.

As of the 11th the SB-406 Tug was at the following position. Still sending international weather in Morse Code. This time to Headquarters Northen Fleet, Severomorsk.


12464 Kilohertz

RIT DE RJQ84 11121 99315 70785

This equates to

31.5N 78.5W Heading ?

Map Link for position off US coast

reply to post by tommyjo

Still sending international weather in Morse Code.

Interesting... What you bet that "weather report" is also hiding code? Are there "mistakes" in the morse signals for letters?

Prior to WWII the French Underground broadcast and received "open air" transmissions that said stuff that seemed innocuous but really hid activation code and target information, etc.

Right out in the open. The Occupying Germans couldn't decipher it, there was nothing to decipher.

"The rain falls mainly on the plain in Spain." That might be a signal to some underground cell to blow up a railroad trestle or something. They already knew what they were supposed to do once they heard it.

reply to post by tommyjo


From the sound of things, they're going to be hoping for awhile. The Air Force has put the launch on hold until they find out why one of the upper stage rocket engines lost power on the last launch. They have been investigating for over a month and still don't know why, and it sounds like it might take a couple months more to figure it out.

reply to post by intrptr



It is just standard international weather code. The Russians use some of their Auxiliary vessels to act as weather ships. They can obviously deny it if they want and simply cease transmitting. They normally do this when they go on exercise periods. Currently there is a Black Sea Fleet Tug on exercise with the Italian Navy in the Mediterranean and it has ceased international weather during the exercise. Prior to the exercise it was sending weather every six hours.

rusnavy.com...

This is the standard international weather code. See following guide.

www.vos.noaa.gov...

For example here is the weather from the Amur Class Floating Workshop PM-56 as it headed for Tartus, Syria on the 25th October. Depending on the conditions I can normally pick it up here in the UK.

7763 Kilohertz

RCV DE RIR98 458 18 25 2200 458 = SML FOR RJE73 RJH45 =
25181 99346 10346 41598 63404 10230 40100 58013 70222 86420 22212 00190 20000 88000 25014 = + RIR98 K

If you go back to the link above you will be able to read the international weather and sea state codes. The interesting part is that the latitude and longitude, course and speed are contained in the message.

Stripped out it reads 99346 10346 22212

This equates to 34.6N 34.6E Heading North East at 6-10 Knots

goo.gl...

The auxiliary vessels are just sending regular international weather. If they require to go secure then they either fully encode Morse messages or they set up a High Frequency data link by establishing the frequencies first by Morse Code.

See following guide.

www.astrosol.ch...

If they want to go secure communications they follow the following format.

www.astrosol.ch...

After establishing Morse call ups they send the frequencies to each other in the clear and then send encrypted data either in voice or teleprinter. Of course they can also do this via a Morse message using their secure codes. Obviously unless you know the key then the messages are unreadable.

Currently the Russians are in the process of sending Task Forces to the Gulf of Aden/Horn of Africa for anti-piracy patrols.

rusnavy.com...

The large Black Sea Fleet Tanker Ivan Bubnov has been sending International Weather on its passage from the Black Sea. As of midday it was hove to at the following. It will probably transit the Suez Canal with the rest of the Black Sea Task Force?

12464 Kilohertz

RCV DE RCJG 13121 99387 10256 22200 @1220Z

This equates to

38.7N 25.6E Hove to

goo.gl...

reply to post by Zaphod58


It does look that way. They will probably wait until the end of the month? Possibly head off for a bit of a rest in Cuba?

During September a Russian Navy Intelligence Ship was photographed in Cuba.

www.shipspotting.com...

reply to post by tommyjo


The current launch window is something like November 27th. But everything I'm hearing as of two days ago, is that they still don't have a clue why the second stage of a Delta IV carrying a GPS satellite rocket had the problem it did. It was a slightly different engine (the A as opposed to the B on the rocket launching the X-37), but they have quite a bit of parts commonality, so they don't want to take any chances, with one of only two of their space planes.

The general consensus is that while the launch of the satellite was successful, it was only because they caught the problem and extended the burn, and had enough fuel to do so. The fear is that if it happens again, it could be worse, and risk the X-37 if it can't reach orbit, and has nowhere to land as an alternate field.

The Russian Navy Tug that sought storm refuge in Jacksonville is still active. Unfortunately RJQ84 is using an unknown frequency. I heard Northern Fleet Headquarters, (RIT) Severomorsk in contact with RJQ84 during 11 GMT on 11155 Kilohertz. The HQ was receipting a number of Morse messages from RJQ84.

Originally posted by victor7

Originally posted by randomname
lets examine what is actually swimming 200 miles of the coast of america.

can the usa stop a missile from hitting new york at that range going mach 23.

at that speed america would have 40 seconds of response time from that distance.

a typical russian nuclear missile has about 10 warheads and 40 decoys. for america to stop just one of these missiles, a manned aegis anti missile system would have to acquire, target and shoot down 50 warheads, travelling at mach 23 in less that 40 seconds. that's just one icbm.

then it would have to defeat the missiles countermeasures. which includes the 40 decoys, chaff released in space confusing ground radar, radar jammers on the warheads and decoys and last but not least, a deliberate nuclear detonation in space to create a radar blackout zone that would allow future missiles to pass thru undetected.

yup, maybe if you're wondering why there isn't any missile defences around your city, is because its pointless, a waste of money and you won't survive.

Russia is spent power, no need to worry or fear. Economically they came to know in 80s that their system of communism based on commodity and energy revenues would not be able to keep up with the US or West. Since 1991, they have done little to modify their reliance on the energy revenues. Unless Russia suddenly comes up with something very strong economically, in next 10 years or so it will be reduced to a 3rd rate power (from 2nd rate currently) in military terms. Country to watch out for is China, it is growing both economically and in military terms.

We heard this kind of talk before Russia stomped Georgia. "How could they do this" and "We didn't even think they had any working tanks!"

Hahahaha.

Pride goeth before the fall, so let's not get too big for our britches.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


Actually the Russian invasion of Georgia proved what bad shape the Russian military is in, which led to all their modernization programs.

reply to post by jibeho

The U.S. Military has the entire Atlantic Ocean WIRED FOR SOUND. The U.S. Navy knows EXACTLY where a Russian is located at any time.

It is a long time practice of U.S. Navy Subs to lie in wait near Russian Sub bases and then follow closely behind these Russian Subs as they leave their bases. U.S. Navy Subs are NEVER TALKED ABOUT as far as their activities and U.S. Subs are the quietest and most capable in the World.

Split Infinity

reply to post by Zaphod58


Where do you get this stuff? They absolutely stomped Georgia, which had a fair bit of newer NATO equipment.

That operation was extremely fast, quite successful, and despite our superior electronic and optical surveillance capabilities we had no idea that there was a whole tank brigade ready to strike so quickly.

Even a couple years later defense analysts are still stammering about that one.