Abortion - Free Will and Responsibility of Women, NOT Mankind

Originally posted by GideonFaith
I will disagree to semen and cutting hair as meaning you are taking human life away. Where does that even make sense?? So, you think even cutting your fingernails would be taking human life?

Why not, unless you are to claim that DNA is not human life? You don't think semen is human life? Because if it isn't, there shouldn't be any need for it when it comes to the cycle of pregnancy, right?

What exactly do you think human life is? You're not one of those people who believe it's another term for human being do you?

I think we all pay into programs for single and married women by paying our taxes.

You pay for those social programmes to support single mothers because it's a requirement, it's a mandate, that you do so. You don't do so for purely voluntary reasons, infact many pro-lifers are rallying against these very programmes which is ironic. Many State governments are even cutting into these programmes.

Where's your posts about those poor children suffering out there from hunger, disease? Where's your post about saving these social programmes, improving it, so that more future mothers would go forward with their pregnancies knowing they'd have the support? huh?

So, if other lazy human lives would take care of their children, this issue

So your position is that women *must* go forward with these pregnancies, and what, they *must* look after them? Do you think preaching and lecturing to them your morals and ethics like you are now is doing anything to change the cycle of abortions there? Do you think you posting on this board is changing the cycle of poverty out there?

Lazy humans? You think only lazy people choose abortions? This is a typical argument from "pro-lifers", they have a narrow view of why women choose abortions.

This is your argument essentially:

"abortion is murder, these women are murders, choose adoption, problem solved"

You aren't going to stop abortions this way, sorry.

reply to post by Quadrivium


No, because they aren't human beings, just like fertilized eggs aren't. Do you get it now?

When a woman has an abortion, human life is taken away.

Yes, and human life isn't human being silly. I'm not sure why you included the broad definition of life since it includes animals, insects, even bacteria. What are you trying to say here Quad? huh?

the discussion would be over

Why? Because you don't like your beliefs being taken apart piece by piece and actually examined? It's so easy to sit on the internet and use such narrowminded arguments such as "abortion is murder". It's easy because you don't put much thought behind those arguments.

You're more than welcome to rejoin me in this debate when you feel you're up to it again, I'm not going anywhere, and I'm not interested in "winning arguments" either as I take the argument of life very seriously.

Originally posted by GideonFaith
The government has several programs available to single parents. Single parents have more rights today, help with childcare, welfare, food stamps, housing plans

You seem to think our social programmes are secure when they aren't. We have a broken system, a broken government, we have poverty in this country. Merely claiming that the government will pick up the pieces, while ignoring the attempts by groups (many of whom include pro-life advocates) to cut these very programmes, is outside of reality. You also ignoring the fact that abortion is chose for other reasons, it also comes down to rights because we're not talking about your body here. You're crossing the topics of rape, molestation, threat to the life of the mother, you're talking about 9 months of pregnancy.

You can't expect to provide such narrowminded arguments and solutions to abortion because it is a complex issue.

As for the children in Africa, nothing bad towards them, but we have too many problems in America

It doesn't matter if we're discussing children in Africa, we're still discussing the life of human beings at the end of the day. Being a true pro-lifer doesn't end at the American border, it isn't about nationality, cultural and continental identity. Either you are a pro-lifer or you're not.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by GideonFaith
I will disagree to semen and cutting hair as meaning you are taking human life away. Where does that even make sense?? So, you think even cutting your fingernails would be taking human life?

Why not, unless you are to claim that DNA is not human life? You don't think semen is human life? Because if it isn't, there shouldn't be any need for it when it comes to the cycle of pregnancy, right?

What exactly do you think human life is? You're not one of those people who believe it's another term for human being do you?

I think we all pay into programs for single and married women by paying our taxes.

You pay for those social programmes to support single mothers because it's a requirement, it's a mandate, that you do so. You don't do so for purely voluntary reasons, infact many pro-lifers are rallying against these very programmes which is ironic. Many State governments are even cutting into these programmes.

Where's your posts about those poor children suffering out there from hunger, disease? Where's your post about saving these social programmes, improving it, so that more future mothers would go forward with their pregnancies knowing they'd have the support? huh?

So, if other lazy human lives would take care of their children, this issue

So your position is that women *must* go forward with these pregnancies, and what, they *must* look after them? Do you think preaching and lecturing to them your morals and ethics like you are now is doing anything to change the cycle of abortions there? Do you think you posting on this board is changing the cycle of poverty out there?

Lazy humans? You think only lazy people choose abortions? This is a typical argument from "pro-lifers", they have a narrow view of why women choose abortions.

This is your argument essentially:

"abortion is murder, these women are murders, choose adoption, problem solved"

You aren't going to stop abortions this way, sorry.

Can the items you are stating that is human life, make a another life? If not, then that is a mute discussion. You are right that we pay because we have to. I think I already stated that earlier. I also think this topic is about abortion, not children who are out there everywhere. The way to solve that is to support abstinence. Most of these single families have more rights to government programs, including healthcare and food stamps that would take care of these so called sick and hungry children. At the end of the day, they are making more than I make and are still having problems, then they need to go back to the healthcare and get some birth control and stop having so many children. Birth control can stop most abortions, because a human life would not exist if they were on it correctly. Poverty is only going to get worse, there are people who chose poverty to get all kinds of government assistance. These are the lazy people. Also if you create a human life or being, you are responsible for making sure that life can grow and prosper. What you decide to do after the baby is born is up to you. Most women decide by the end to keep their baby and some choose adoption, either way life was created and nobody was murdered or called a murderer. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but abortions are not going to stop no matter what you or I say either way. I was stating for the record that abortion is wrong and it's murder from day one of conception until the baby is born. Yes, that includes rape and incest. I don't agree with rape and incest. Because I have been there myself, I can say that if I had gotten pregnant, I couldn't of aborted my baby. Yes, I said my baby, because either way it would be half me that created that life. Whether it was in a marriage or whether in rape or incest, it's still me in there in that tiny baby.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by GideonFaith
The government has several programs available to single parents. Single parents have more rights today, help with childcare, welfare, food stamps, housing plans

You seem to think our social programmes are secure when they aren't. We have a broken system, a broken government, we have poverty in this country. Merely claiming that the government will pick up the pieces, while ignoring the attempts by groups (many of whom include pro-life advocates) to cut these very programmes, is outside of reality. You also ignoring the fact that abortion is chose for other reasons, it also comes down to rights because we're not talking about your body here. You're crossing the topics of rape, molestation, threat to the life of the mother, you're talking about 9 months of pregnancy.

You can't expect to provide such narrowminded arguments and solutions to abortion because it is a complex issue.

As for the children in Africa, nothing bad towards them, but we have too many problems in America

It doesn't matter if we're discussing children in Africa, we're still discussing the life of human beings at the end of the day. Being a true pro-lifer doesn't end at the American border, it isn't about nationality, cultural and continental identity. Either you are a pro-lifer or you're not.

Abortion may be complex to you, but it's not. People try to over analyze everything. As for our government taking away the programs, I must agree if you have been on them for year after year after year without even trying to find a stable job, then yes, you should be cut. If they are on illegal drugs or drunks, then yes, cut them. That is another subject and is not about abortion. I stated in an earlier post that if the mother or baby is in danger of death, then and only then should the mother have a decision to make. That is after all ways of trying to save the life of both mother and baby. I'm not even going to talk to you about children in Africa, that is off topic also. Once again, human life begins at conception and continues until the baby is born into this world. Abortion is murder, at the end of the day, it's just than simple, nothing complex.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

No, because they aren't human beings, just like fertilized eggs aren't. Do you get it now?

Your belief, got it.

Why? Because you don't like your beliefs being taken apart piece by piece and actually examined?

No, because I do not argue with children. I will debate an adult however.

It's so easy to sit on the internet and use such narrowminded arguments such as "abortion is murder". It's easy because you don't put much thought behind those arguments.

This is the reason the discussion is over, you can not win so you resort to personal attacks. You know nothing about me.
This makes your argument seem weak and childish. There is no challenge in debating you.
Don't get mad and attack, just accept it and move on.

You're more than welcome to rejoin me in this debate when you feel you're up to it again, I'm not going anywhere, and I'm not interested in "winning arguments" either as I take the argument of life very seriously.

That entire statement makes absolutely no sense......................How old are you???
Seriously. If you are the teenager you are acting like, try getting some real life experience before posting.
But if you are just bitter that you could not make your argument, grow up.

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by GideonFaith

It's real simple, here goes. Well one night my daddy and mama decided to become intimate. During this process, I was created. Where the sperm meets the egg and cells start to divide, yep, that was me! I thank them everyday for giving me life.

Cancer and bed bugs too.

Are they sentient beings? Do they have a soul consciousness?

Is the consciousness built into the cells of the physical? Or - - maybe its the chemicals in our brains.

NO - - it is not that simple.

To you, its not that simple. But to me, it is very simple. If you need to read it again, see above. IMHO all the other garbage you have up there is just that, GARBAGE.

Why do we exist at all?

If there is no reason for our existence - - what does it matter?

Cancer is a living thing just trying to exist - - but we aggressively try to stop its existence.

One could consider over population and irresponsible procreation a "cancer" on humanity.

GARBAGE? You want to refer to something as garbage? Try all the abandoned - abused - and uncared for already LIVING CHILDREN in this world.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by GideonFaith

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by GideonFaith

It's real simple, here goes. Well one night my daddy and mama decided to become intimate. During this process, I was created. Where the sperm meets the egg and cells start to divide, yep, that was me! I thank them everyday for giving me life.

Cancer and bed bugs too.

Are they sentient beings? Do they have a soul consciousness?

Is the consciousness built into the cells of the physical? Or - - maybe its the chemicals in our brains.

NO - - it is not that simple.

To you, its not that simple. But to me, it is very simple. If you need to read it again, see above. IMHO all the other garbage you have up there is just that, GARBAGE.

Why do we exist at all?

If there is no reason for our existence - - what does it matter?

Cancer is a living thing just trying to exist - - but we aggressively try to stop its existence.

One could consider over population and irresponsible procreation a "cancer" on humanity.

GARBAGE? You want to refer to something as garbage? Try all the abandoned - abused - and uncared for already LIVING CHILDREN in this world.

I already explained to you why we exist. I still have no clue what cancer has to do with a living human?!?! There is enough cancer and other diseases that keep the population down, even the GMO is working hard on keeping population down. Abortion doesn't need to be the answer for population reduction!! YOU want to talk about GARBAGE? That is what is happening to all the aborted babies in America now. Being thrown away like garbage. You just posted that LIVING CHILDREN ARE GARBAGE!!!! Seriously??? There are children who are abandoned (aborted babies included), abused (aborted babies included) and uncared (once again, aborted babies included), but if you ask them, I am sure they would rather be alive, then aborted. I don't think they would think of themselves as garbage either!!

Originally posted by GideonFaith
Can the items you are stating that is human life, make a another life?

Depends what you mean by this. Have you heard of cloning? They've been successful with cloning sheep in this area. If your argument is that can human life naturally produce human beings, well human beings can do this naturally (provided we're speaking of the opposite sex) because they form part of that definition of "human life".

I also think this topic is about abortion

The core part to debating the issue of abortion is that of debating human rights, defining what a human being is. Incase you didn't know, children are considered human beings, and if one is to argue the "right to life" for all "human beings" then this argument extends to children and adult human beings outside the womb, those who are not granted that right to live, through way of poverty, neglect.

Being a true pro-lifer doesn't end with the womb.

Birth control can stop most abortions,

What do you mean it can stop most abortions? Birth control already prevents most cases of abortions, most people already use birth control you know? Yes the availability of more birth control will help bring down that number more so, but it's not going to completely end abortions. There are many reasons as to why women choose the path of abortions, birth control isn't always an option and it doesn't always work.

Also if you create a human life or being, you are responsible for making sure that life can grow and prosper.

I agree and disagree. While I believe that it is the better option to go with pregnancy, to give it a chance, I would not anyway believe a rape victim is "responsible" for her further" responsibility. Frankly it's none of my business and it's none of yours. These victims don't owe anybody anything, they don't owe you anything, they don't have to take *responsibility* for a crime they suffered through.

As for women in other cases, I'd like them to take responsibility as I feel pregnancy is always the better choice, but it's not my place to tell them what to do with their bodies. It's not my place to tell you what you *must* do with your body. The pro-life argument was lost 30 years ago, the decision comes down to the woman herself and it will always come down to her and her alone.

Now, if you want continue preaching about how all women should take responsibility for pregnancy and not have abortions, be my guest, but you're not really making a case to them for the benefits of being mothers. Instead you're just lecturing them with your morals, and this kind of attitude has not gotten the pro-life movement anywhere over the 3 decades. At some point pro-lifers are going to have to ask themselves why women aren't listening to their lectures and insults. Maybe because they don't really offer solutions, and they don't offer support either, just arguments and insults.

Quad! Why am I not surprised that you've decided to coming running back to me with more of your arguments?

So much for ending the debate I guess.

reply to post by Quadrivium

Your belief

It's not my belief, it's a fact. If you want to continue living in this delusion I can't force you to think otherwise.

This is the reason the discussion is over

If it's over, why are you still here in this discussion arguing with me?

Feel free to hit me up with any further arguments on why fertilized eggs are human babies, and why all women who choose abortion are murders. I'm not really interested in your personal drama, go take it up somewhere else.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by GideonFaith
Can the items you are stating that is human life, make a another life?

Depends what you mean by this. Have you heard of cloning? They've been successful with cloning sheep in this area. If your argument is that can human life naturally produce human beings, well human beings can do this naturally (provided we're speaking of the opposite sex) because they form part of that definition of "human life".

I also think this topic is about abortion

The core part to debating the issue of abortion is that of debating human rights, defining what a human being is. Incase you didn't know, children are considered human beings, and if one is to argue the "right to life" for all "human beings" then this argument extends to children and adult human beings outside the womb, those who are not granted that right to live, through way of poverty, neglect.

Being a true pro-lifer doesn't end with the womb.

Birth control can stop most abortions,

What do you mean it can stop most abortions? Birth control already prevents most cases of abortions, most people already use birth control you know? Yes the availability of more birth control will help bring down that number more so, but it's not going to completely end abortions. There are many reasons as to why women choose the path of abortions, birth control isn't always an option and it doesn't always work.

Also if you create a human life or being, you are responsible for making sure that life can grow and prosper.

I agree and disagree. While I believe that it is the better option to go with pregnancy, to give it a chance, I would not anyway believe a rape victim is "responsible" for her further" responsibility. Frankly it's none of my business and it's none of yours. These victims don't owe anybody anything, they don't owe you anything, they don't have to take *responsibility* for a crime they suffered through.

As for women in other cases, I'd like them to take responsibility as I feel pregnancy is always the better choice, but it's not my place to tell them what to do with their bodies. It's not my place to tell you what you *must* do with your body. The pro-life argument was lost 30 years ago, the decision comes down to the woman herself and it will always come down to her and her alone.

Now, if you want continue preaching about how all women should take responsibility for pregnancy and not have abortions, be my guest, but you're not really making a case to them for the benefits of being mothers. Instead you're just lecturing them with your morals, and this kind of attitude has not gotten the pro-life movement anywhere over the 3 decades. At some point pro-lifers are going to have to ask themselves why women aren't listening to their lectures and insults. Maybe because they don't really offer solutions, and they don't offer support either, just arguments and insults.

No, I live in the dark ages and I didn't even know cloning was going on! Cloning has nothing to do with abortions. Unless, they are now aborting clones too So, how many children and adults that are living today wish they had been aborted?? I would think the numbers would be scarce. There is a HUGE difference in living in poverty and neglect or being put in the garbage (aborted). Birth control is available in county health departments, even in our school systems for free. Yes, birth control could stop 99% of unwanted pregnancies. Abstinence would stop 100%. If you are not prepared to be a parent, abstinence is the way they should be going. Rape victims have the choice of going to the emergency room to get the morning after pill. I don't agree with it, but it would be a better choice than aborting later. I think they don't listen to anyone whether they are lecturing or not is because all they think about is themselves and are too selfish in the end. Personally, I think they should of thought of the fact they could get pregnant before having sex to begin with. It's not rocket science!

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by Annee

 

Pro-lifers (the ones who believe all women and children should be shamed and/or punished if they choose abortion) seem to have a sense of moral superiority. Once you go outside the womb, there's litte to no motivation for them to bother investing even half the time on preserving the life of human beings because:

A) It's going to actually cost them
B) It doesn't allow them to dictate what others *must* do
C) It does nothing to feed their egos and their sense of moral superiority.

Oh I know - - its totally self-righteous.

They can chastise me all they want for having an abortion. I had two LIVING children who would have suffered if I didn't. It was a very difficult circumstance.

There is not ONE unselfish reason to bring another child into this world. Not having a child because you are not ready to take care of is an unselfish act.

Unlike them - - my childhood dream was to join the Peace Corp as a teacher or medical personnel. Medical reasons prevented it.

I raised my 2 children and helped raise my grandchildren. At 66 I'm raising my 4 year old grandson.

As far as I'm concerned responsible procreation is essential to the health of this planet and the children in it. And I do include abortion in responsible procreation.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Quad! Why am I not surprised that you've decided to coming running back to me with more of your arguments?

So much for ending the debate I guess.

You know I have to have the last word!

It's not my belief, it's a fact. If you want to continue living in this delusion I can't force you to think otherwise.

Wrong SG, It would be correct to say that it is YOUR belief that it is fact.
For every scientific research link you post saying it is fact (which you have not done). I can post one (and I have) saying it isn't.

You are acting like a spoiled child IMHO,
This is the reason the discussion is over....well almost anyway

We on ATS have a responsibility to DENY IGNORANCE
I am sorry to say I have come to the point where I can no longer deny yours.

Put your beliefs aside and do some research.
I do not want to hear the sob story about all of the long, grueling days you have spent researching this topic. I want you to PROVE IT.
I do not care how you "feel" about it, with your feelings come your beliefs.

If YOU can stop putting words in my mouth, stop acting like a pouting child and debate the things I have stated in a civil manner we may be able to continue........ but we both know you can not do that, don't we?
Quad

Snuffing someones life is not being responsible or an act of unselfishness.
This is not simply the free will of women only. That in its self is ignorant and selfish.

[This is a highly emotive subject in a highly emotive thread.
It polarises people like most no other subject.
We all have free will..so in theory God allows us any action.
But society rightly sets rules in order to maintain order and protect the well being of human beings.
Law reflects human will.
The argument is when does a human being become a living being?
But the question always should be would you have wanted your mother to have terminated you.
Where would you be now if that had happenned?
Here on ATS reading this thread?
No you would be dead..
That is just my view on this subject.

Originally posted by Dr Expired
This is a highly emotive subject in a highly emotive thread.
It polarises people like most no other subject.
We all have free will..so in theory God allows us any action.
But society rightly sets rules in order to maintain order and protect the well being of human beings.
Law reflects human will.
The argument is when does a human being become a living being?
But the question always should be would you have wanted your mother to have terminated you.
Where would you be now if that had happenned?
Here on ATS reading this thread?
No you would be dead.
That is just my view on this subject.

Nicely worded Dr. that is what I have been saying.

If a woman has an abortion she is taking away human LIFE.

LIFE, meaning all the experiences this person would have, ever. This is taken away.

Originally posted by sweetliberty
Snuffing someones life is not being responsible or an act of unselfishness.
This is not simply the free will of women only. That in its self is ignorant and selfish.

Removing a parasite is not snuffing out someone.

And YES! Responsible procreation on an overpopulated planet - - - is responsible and unselfish.

And abortion is included in responsible procreation.

Until every LIVING CHILD is cared for - - - I have no interest in the self-righteous Pro-Lifers. They are doing more harm then good.

HER story.
Enough said.

Originally posted by Dr Expired

But the question always should be would you have wanted your mother to have terminated you.

To me this is the dumbest argument ever.

If I didn't exist - - I wouldn't care - - because I wouldn't know.

And No - - it doesn't bother me at all.

Originally posted by Quadrivium
Wrong SG, It would be correct to say that it is YOUR belief

It's not my belief. There's no consensus in the scientific community that fertilized eggs are human beings:

One thing you’ll notice is the frantic attempt to qualify everything by inserting the qualifier “human” before every mention of the word “life”, to the point where they are even adding it when quoting me! Alas, it doesn’t help them at all. I’m also confident that the freshly fertilized zygote is not human, either. There’s more to being human than bearing a cell with the right collection of genes.

scienceblogs.com...

Can you grant fertilized eggs the same rights as human beings? No you can't, because they are not human beings. The circumstances they face are vastly different from human beings. You're not going to have police treat a death of a fertilized egg in the same way as a murdered human being, you're not going to have fertilized eggs counted in the census records. You cannot treat them like human beings because they aren't human beings.

If YOU can stop putting words in my mouth

Why don't you stop lying about your position everytime you are being called out on it. Either you believe fertilized eggs are human beings or you don't, and if you believe they are human beings too, then you believe the same rights should be afforded. It's either one or the other so if I'm supposedly "putting words" in your mouth, why don't you reassess what you're actually arguing.