Dr. J. Allen Hynek, Rosicrucianism, and UFOs

Excellent thread, too bad I just noticed it today.

This Rosicrucianism is something I have never heard about, compared to how the usual Illuminati rants go on about occultism and Mason without much detail being explained other then the usual Satan, the enemy excuse because they didn't see it there way. Especially men of science and up most renowned credibility looking for some form of spirituality or understanding of the weird.

As for the metaphysical or the esoteric, I personally find that they do give some insight into the nature of consciousness and the attempts at explaining it with metaphysics. However, the problem is that each culture has a bias to it and usually goes with a few taboos, but whether these taboos serve as safety guidelines, or some form spiritual punishment or guilt depends on ones own perception of life and themselves.

Like Jesus being a savior or spiritual hero, granting a placebo or teddy bear effect, or how Satan or God(preference depending) is watching and waiting to strike for no dam reason.

I've been reading one e-book online, by a yogi named Gopi Kirshna called "Kundalini Awakening Systems" where it explains about his internal experiences with kundalini practices and it integration rather then how to arouse it really. A major summary of his story was that he had practiced yoga for 17 years, where one day he has a powerful metaphysical experience which had changed his entire introspect of life, where he goes through personal radical changes where as he felt completely detached from his personal goals or values. Where over the years, he had to let his body adjust to the various subtle changes in his body to get a better feel of it.

What I so far enjoy about his take is that he was believed to have been the intellectual, and how some of his experiences kind of relates to what I've experienced through some of my own rigors of trying to understand my own consciousness. He even goes quite in depth about kundalini, and uses the infamous serpent theme that often related to it. Where he explains that it more of a liquid light that connected to the nervous system, that it has a sinuous movement to it that goes through the body, where it like a snake jumping from one point to the other in mid air. And that it works through various nervous centres through the body, and that main problem is that some times it could be diverted wrong where some organs become stressed or over re-active, or that the nerves are some how starved of this energy. Usually these nerves centre are called "Nadi", where it ranges to the standard 7 chakras, to over 72,000 nerve endings and what not. However, it has a very elusive, volatile nature to it.

I've had something similar happen, where in my early attempt into the supernatural or spiritual was kind of the turbulent one, where I found about the new age and the charkas, and jumped the gun with little to no guidance. Where I was just practicing on what I believed was the third eye at the time, and that I had stressed a part of my brain and made it over active, which lead to a few major problems. Also, the book talks about a yogi term that called "Vrtta" where it means "whirling motion", that it relates to emotions and how conscious has a dispersion and how the mind makes multiples of itself. Where as their strict practices are meant to teach one the discipline to adapt with it to avoid unnecessary taboos.

Anyways, a little of topic, but the practices of Yoga and Buddha have caught my eye, where as they try to understand the nature of consciousness and it workings. Which is a lot better then just saying and brown nosing Jesus from my experience.

Plus it the kung fu fighting I always wanted since Buddha seems more Masculine, then Yoga Feminine display. Its like Mc'donalds with boy and girl toys, I wanted an Optimus Prime with my happy meal.

Sadly Canada's rather boring.

Of Arcane knowkedge and Western Hermeticism

The Rosicrucians and occultists have their own nondisclosure agreements, and beyond that some things need to be secret for a sensible reason, so I'll take a parallel route.

The mysteries, well some if them anyway, are designed to hide a truth and lead the student on another path. In plain language; a detour.

The Church did this with the Arthurian Legends to lead the enquirer away from the the world of Nemue, magic and the Nature Beings and to an approved place within christian thinking (the Christian egregor).

So too the concept of the devil. In short; the devil is an egregor (a thought form in occult terms). It is also a lie.

What is hidden beyond there is evil.

Some things should be left alone.

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

en.wikipedia.org...

Godel was one of the brightest scientists ever to live.

All knowledge is incomplete, and thus in a sense is a "lie".

People who know this, and work with this are either scientists or magicians.
(or both).

In the mysteries, at least the ones I studied, there were a few reasons for
hiding the truth and teaching "lies":

1) To protect against misuse of the knowledge.
2) If you tell the student the answer, he won't derive it him/herself, and in fact its the
pressure put on the organism that causes growth/evolution.. the "answer" almost
doesn't matter.
3) As a security measure... if a student goes around spouting the "truth", then the group
knows that it has been penetrated.. as that "truth" is actually a "lie" to catch spies.
4) And of course.. per godel's incompleteness theorum.. there only exist lies..

It's the old Boundary Layer conundrum that any honest seeker runs into almost
immediately.

You can't know what you can't perceive, directly or indirectly.

so if you sit 1 or 1 trillion "impassable" boundary layers away from the things you want to know
it's all the same.

Truth is like those russian dolls that fit within each other, extending to infinity.

One of the most important things to possess, either as a magician or a scientist
is how to live with despair --- that and a very healthy sense of humor.

I remember seeing big ads for the Rosicrucians in the back of the various pulp UFO and "strange topics" magazines I used to get as a kid. I don't think I ever sent them anything, because their ads made it sound like a cult. But it's nice to find out that they weren't just jerks who only wanted money.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Well they send out those thin paper pamphlets. At least that's what I got when
I was a kid and asked to be sent the first set.

I'd wager that most people who claim to be "mystics" by virtue of being a Rosicrucian,
have probably just sent the money for the pamphlets over the years.

But I imagine there is a deeper level of participation.

I know that they have a first rate egyptian / sumerian museum in the south bay of
CA. I've been there twice. It's breathtaking.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

is how to live with despair --- that and a very healthy sense of humor.

Despair, I know too well and humour is always what saves me in the end from despair.

so if you sit 1 or 1 trillion "impassable" boundary layers away from the things you want to know
it's all the same.

I wonder if this is so for everyone.

I get into so much trouble because there are no boundaries for me in a practical sense. One only needs a starting point to begin. Like hunting, one needs only to know that the rabbit exists and you will find it.

If there are boundaries, then I wonder if they are all self imposed?

Obedience to arbitrary rules, be they society, the nondisclosure agreements, or initiatory oaths are agreements. Honouring agreements is a civilised way to behave bringing friendships and access to knowledge and is based on trust.

To break agreements brings distrust in it's wake, thus discord and chaos and one would find oneself eventually without friends and prey to predators. To survive one would then have to learn to be a predator oneself. Predators generally hunt alone, sometimes in packs, but that is not civilised society for human beings.

I think we begin life without boundaries and learn them as we learn civilised behavior; how to get on with our family, co-workers and neighbors.

"You can't climb over that fence!" So the child climbs the tree instead and drops over the fence.

It is within human society that secrets exist. The occultist trades his freedom for knowledge and power. So does the enquiring mind when he joins the corporation to learn more about UFOs. What good is knowledge and power if it cannot be used to assist others, right wrongs and build friendships?

"Only the high initiate may know the secrets of the soul!" So the child just goes next door and asks the neighbors.

It is as easy as that if one is friends with the neighbors.

For me it seems to be simply a matter of consequences. When it is discovered that you know such things; that it is common knowledge outside the enclosure, it is then that trouble comes your way.

But what is the human enclosure?

It is the egregor. Step outside of Buddhism and one can see the gods who were once human and what they have created. Step outside of Christianity and one can see what has been created by man. Science too is an egregor.

That egregors are societies and safe havens for people is, on one hand a blessing and yet it is a curse too, for egregors are also enclosures. Infinity in a closed space if one thinks the contents of the egregor is all there is.

Truth is like those russian dolls that fit within each other, extending to infinity.

Egregors are like that too. Russian dolls indeed but those dolls can hold multiple dolls. Step out far enough and one finds that the All Seeing Eye encloses them all. An egregor in reverse the Eye watches the egregors within and thus sees all.

But not really everything does it see. Step out of the egregors and the egregors will seek you out to include you once again. The sheep dogs will bring in those who stray from the flock.

Yet the All Seeing Eye is not the eye of an infinate god, nor the "Universe" of the new age. The Eye is just a construct in itself; a tool to see inside the egregors and thus watch us all. The Eye knows what pain is, the Eye knows fear. Perhaps that is why the Eye is here.

The Eye watches the world of egregors, it has limits, for it does not watch over the Nature Spirits nor anything else that is not within the egregors.

To watch over Nature Beings and others are the Devas in all their guises. To observe their interaction with the little Nature Spirits is to see an occupation force for the fairies fear the Devas.

The coming of religion and the taming of Nature is plain to see. Perhaps it is progress from one point of view. To control the weather, to control the environment, to control the world.

In the mysteries, at least the ones I studied, there were a few reasons for
hiding the truth and teaching "lies":

1) To protect against misuse of the knowledge.
2) If you tell the student the answer, he won't derive it him/herself, and in fact its the
pressure put on the organism that causes growth/evolution.. the "answer" almost
doesn't matter.
3) As a security measure... if a student goes around spouting the "truth", then the group
knows that it has been penetrated.. as that "truth" is actually a "lie" to catch spies.
4) And of course.. per godel's incompleteness theorum.. there only exist lies..

Honestly KPB it read through the wikipedia article on Gödel's theorem and could not connect with what was said. There was no heart to it. Such things feel, to me at least, like the abstractions of intellect from within an egregor. Just my view there and I don't doubt that within the egregors concerned that the theorums hold true and indeed that all knowledge is lies.

Yet is it so outside of those intellects and egregor? Some things would be universal and common to all the egregors inside and out. Yet within the egregors not everything is the same.

If one were to create a world, or simply a cage for a creature that matter, an egregor would suffice to keep our creature happy and contained.

Yet I wonder. Would not the egregor eventually become so structured that it becomes a prison?

My view is that book-learning is not true knowledge. Book-learning does share a how-to of things as does an oral tradition. Learning that a cat has claws is one thing but until we meet the cat and feel the claws ourselves it is theoretical.

I often liken our boundary of self to be a window to what is and book-learning and theories to be like pictures cut out of a magazine and pasted on our window. Too many pictures and we will no longer be able to perceive the what is beyond our self.

You've caught me on a morning after days of conflict and so my mood is reflective. Intuitive fella you are KPB

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

Just remember that the brain is a Universe-class (world-class at least) virtual reality generator.

The people who think it's easy to escape the confines of the human imagination are legion.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I think you already know that it is very lonely outside.

But that is perhaps a human condition?

Just remember that the brain is a Universe-class (world-class at least) virtual reality generator.

It is and I like to make use of it in practice. For me the world of Nature is very feminine,or at least it does not have a masculine differentiation as do humans with the division of sexes.

I always see the Nature Beings who adopt human appearance such as the nymphs as "girls". It is my choice to a degree because I like to think of "girls" as sugar and spice and all things nice. That point of view is just a basis for a relationship which is mutual.

Yet it is not lost on me that a diminutive goddess of war might be cute, yet she can kill me without batting an eyelid in a fight. Well, at least she puts forward the idea she can. One meets interesting people in old Templar castles bathed in blood . . . .

I know your story of the magician, it is a good one.

I also remember you saying that it is happiest to not know everything, or at least pretend you don't know.

For me,it is a case of I don't want to know. But sometimes one has to know in order to achieve something for someone else. Say; to free a spirit from a magician's control for instance. Then one must know.

Afterwards one can sit down and forget and go back to admiring the forms of fairies in the garden and growing things.

I'm happiest to be a hopeless romantic when it comes to my "girls" and I'm also happy to take up arms in their defense.

C'est la vie.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

a reply to: Blue Shift

I haven't met too many Rosicrucians in the street as I keep to myself. The AMORC probably does have both the paper mystics as well as those who live it. I just don't underestimate them.

And the monographs cost money to print and post, and then there is the museum to finance.

Just from the outside, I've always felt Rosicrucians to be primarily collectors of knowledge in essence.

That museum I would love to visit, yet at the same time I don't want to meet what is there. It is said they have one of the crystal skulls.

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

I don't have much to add to such a deep discussion, but I am fascinated by the philosophies and allegory.

a reply to: The GUT

I'm enjoying the luxury of simply speaking openly here rather then defensively so as not to hurt someone's feeling in the busy threads.

But also there is a point to it too.

Keep in mind that I'm learning also from both yourself and KPB and adding to my understanding, so I don't know the answers myself. Hopefully we can together.

I find it somewhat remarkable, synchronicity-level remarkable, that two men who would have such an impact--both scientifically and philosophically--on Ufology, would share a common interest in Rosicrucianism.

Some might say it clouded or "colored" their judgements in regards to Ufology, but both Dr. Jacques Vallee and his friend and mentor Dr. J. Allen Hynek had an affinity for--and training in--Rosicruscianism.

Maybe, however, it was just the opposite. Instead of coloring their research, maybe it informed their mutual quest. It could be that Hynek and Vallee's familiarity and affinity for the "Mystical" put the UFO puzzle into a sharper focus.

In mirageman's thread we opened up the idea of consciousness as being important in understanding UFOs.

KPB introduced a biological component of a dark nature.

And why do they need parasitologists and bio-engineers for in a UFO "academy"?

And why Rosicrucians and other occultist's?

Rosicrucians are also alchemists.

Alchemey is not just transmutating lead into gold. Alchemy also includes the creation of life, the homonculus as a part of their knowledge.

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

I'll flat out tell you, that when you do "occult things you have far less actual
free will than you assume. If you look for the signs you will realize it.

I know that's creepy. People can't take the truth. That's why we invent God and
Angels / Demons and UFOs.

But then again, all of our lives are somewhat scripted.. actors on the stage..
and it's ok.. it's how it works for pretty much everyone.

On the days you are most effective, you might approach being a true psychic.

On your worst days, you are just deluding yourself.

Watch.

You will notice a convergence.

A thread.

Maybe once in a life you will be at the right place, and the right time
to make a difference.

Then maybe 20 other times for a smaller difference.

Maybe it's giving a stranger a hug.. that's your entire "higher purpose".

The rest is at least mostly self-delusion.

It's the Magician's game.

Kev

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

The Sumerian wing, the much smaller wing, is worth viewing.. no matter what.
don't worry about an egregore there.. the crowds of the unknowing masses keep
the place pretty cleared out.

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

There are two homonculus in the body.... together they form a crucial
part of the antennae. It's basic neurology, not "woo".

Inner alchemy indeed.

I did ask JV about his Rosicrucian studies. He's made no secret that he's studied
various things in his search for new science.

I can't speak for him... but of all the "sorcerer scientists" I've met or conversed with,
(the number is like something like 5), I don't think that any of them think that any
particular system has ever "delivered" "real results", at most some spooky lingering
effects.

That's why i don't buy the conspiracy theory that these guys all gather every sunday
in a circle and sacrifice babies while invoking Baal and having sex magic.

Unfortunately I think that pedophilia is pretty common in some circles.. but the
"sorcerer scientists" at least, the ones I know anyway, or family men, with really
big and open minds.

but I can't speak for anyone or everyone.

Just my impression.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I'll flat out tell you, that when you do "occult things you have far less actual
free will than you assume. If you look for the signs you will realize it.

And yeah, I'll flat out tell you I know. (Smile)

But where do we work if not in the world we are within?

One can only try to make a difference otherwise we end up ineffectual bystanders as you've said yourself.


a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I have never heard of the Sumerian wing. What is it?

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I did ask JV about his Rosicrucian studies. He's made no secret that he's studied
various things in his search for new science.

I can't speak for him... but of all the "sorcerer scientists" I've met or conversed with,
(the number is like something like 5), I don't think that any of them think that any
particular system has ever "delivered" "real results", at most some spooky lingering
effects.

I quite agree, my wondering is what is the egregor is up too. Egregors are not just thought forms and they are full of the discarnate.

hat's why i don't buy the conspiracy theory that these guys all gather every sunday
in a circle and sacrifice babies while invoking Baal and having sex magic.

Nor do I, I think most people are just normal people doing what they think is normal, kiss the wife goodbye and pat the kids on the head on the way to the busstop normal.

But what happens in the unseen world is perhaps something else.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

There are two homonculus in the body.... together they form a crucial
part of the antennae. It's basic neurology, not "woo".

Inner alchemy indeed.

I never said it was inner alchemy . . . . .

Just keep in mind a lot of ATS is new to me and the antennae is too. Hard for me to put it into context.

So are the two homonculi artificial creations?


Edit. Geez that was dumb " . . . are the two homonculi artificial creations."

Of course they are, duh! I'm so stupid at times.

Okay so who puts the homonculi there and who makes them?

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

Just read a neurology textbook, and you'll eventually catch on to what I'm referring.
everyone has them. But they are just the exoteric part.

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

you should just come down and see the museum.. you won't regret it.
It's not spooky or occult. Far from it. Just a world-class of exhibit egyptian and
sumerian artifacts. Some of the shots from TV shows come from there
apparently.

Hey -- let me tell you something about the ancient mysteries.. people make them
far more "occult" than they were.

you want to know one of the biggest initiatory secrets of all time? people killed
over the knowledge? It took you years to maybe work up to the knowledge?

Ok.. drum roll... and I'm not kidding...

"Men have something to do with making babies too".

Ever heard about the red and white essences in Tantric Buddhism?

Super duper mystical things, right?

Er. Not really.

We learn about it in highschool when like 13 these days.

There ARE "arcane things".

But far less than people think.. and a background in science will help you
with even that.

Kev

No wonder...Hynek and Vallee had/have far-out Rosicrucian thoughts on the UFO enigma, since both were/are ufology moles for the CIA.

"Every UFO organization is monitoried by government informers"

"What is the purpose of the CIA in ufology?"

www.topsecretwriters.com...

"The thing about truth is, not a lot of people can handle it." - Conner McGregor