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Scottish independence: Cameron and Salmond strike referendum deal
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Scotland would try their darnedest to be part of NATO and the EU
Dont be so sure of that.
Your talking of involvement in future wars depending on scotland joining the EU, NATO. I think you missed the point of the last post... or did you ?
reply to post by kingmonkey
And you accuse the English of arrogance - but I guess you won't see the irony in that will you?
Yes, we have been involved in illegal wars - we were deliberately lied to and misled by two Scottish Prime Ministers and one of Scottish descent.
Yet you assume the moral highground.
I'm sorry but you seem to have bought into the romantic nonsense that free from the rest of the UK Scotland will be cured of all it's ill's and will enter into some sort of golden age.
Independant or not one thing is certain - the future holds some hard choices and difficult times for both Scotland and the UK - personally I think we'll all be better able to come through those times and effect real change together - but maybe that's just the romantic, idealistic fool in me?
It does seem that successive UK government's have loved nothing more than fighting illegal wars. An independent Scotland would have nothing to do with that.
And you accuse the English of arrogance - but I guess you won't see the irony in that will you?
Yes, we have been involved in illegal wars - we were deliberately lied to and misled by two Scottish Prime Ministers and one of Scottish descent.
Yet you assume the moral highground.
I'm sorry but you seem to have bought into the romantic nonsense that free from the rest of the UK Scotland will be cured of all it's ill's and will enter into some sort of golden age.
Independant or not one thing is certain - the future holds some hard choices and difficult times for both Scotland and the UK - personally I think we'll all be better able to come through those times and effect real change together - but maybe that's just the romantic, idealistic fool in me?
Yes, we have been involved in illegal wars - we were deliberately lied to and misled by two Scottish Prime Ministers and one of Scottish descent.
You are correct but who's agenda were they serving ?
Deny ignorance buddy.
Originally posted by tdk84
It does seem that successive UK government's have loved nothing more than fighting illegal wars. An independent Scotland would have nothing to do with that. It would then be up to the voting populous of whatever union remains to have their government alter their foreign policy. Good luck.
Yes they love illegal wars & what makes you think Scotland wouldn't be involved? I'd imagine Scotland would try their darnedest to be part of NATO and the EU. Such a potentially young country would do its best to keep relations as high as possible.
Defence and wars are such a tiny % of the greater issue's.edit on 22-10-2012 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)
£20+billion cost of Trident is of course a tiny issue facing a country which has slashed public spending
Dont be so sure of that.
I don't think they will have much choice in regards to the EU. They will need to be a member for trade, funding etc. I'd also imagine if a referendum for independence is won, there would also be a good chance on the referendum for Europe passing, just on the ground of 'we don't need London'.
Your talking of involvement in future wars depending on scotland joining the EU, NATO. I think you missed the point of the last post... or did you ?
What I'm saying is if they joined NATO and the EU, which I'd imagine they would their going to be involved in future wars. And a young nation such as Scotland wont have much choice in order to build/keep strong relations. Which is a catch-22, Scotland will no doubt have to join NATO and the EU to keep good relations.
edit on 22-10-2012 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)
£20+billion cost of Trident is of course a tiny issue facing a country which has slashed public spending
of course its a tiny factor, your not looking at the greater picture. debt, trade, resource's, currency, nato, eu etc.
If your asking me trident is a necessity but that's a different discussion.
Lets not forget as off January the UK was in £988.7 billion in debt, which puts Scotland in £81 billion debt roughly.
Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by kingmonkey
It does seem that successive UK government's have loved nothing more than fighting illegal wars. An independent Scotland would have nothing to do with that.
And you accuse the English of arrogance - but I guess you won't see the irony in that will you?
Yes, we have been involved in illegal wars - we were deliberately lied to and misled by two Scottish Prime Ministers and one of Scottish descent.
Yet you assume the moral highground.
I'm sorry but you seem to have bought into the romantic nonsense that free from the rest of the UK Scotland will be cured of all it's ill's and will enter into some sort of golden age.
Independant or not one thing is certain - the future holds some hard choices and difficult times for both Scotland and the UK - personally I think we'll all be better able to come through those times and effect real change together - but maybe that's just the romantic, idealistic fool in me?
Are you sure you read my posts?
I accused a previous poster of being arrogant given the content of his posts. I don't think it was at all possible to confuse that with accusing the English people of being arrogant. For the hard of thinking, I wasn't.
I think it was also clear in my previous posts that I was referring to current and previous UK Government, apparently serving the best interests of the UK populous, involving us in foreign wars not one person. Did the then Scottish prime minister not have the backing of not only his party, but the opposition? No moral high ground was sought in my post. I even suggested that the people of England could also effect similar change re. Foreign policy post independence for Scotland.
And yes, post independence I do hope that Scotland will be cured of all its ills......what sane person wouldn't want that for their country? I don't think the path will be easy by any means, but one thing is sure, I have seen nothing that would suggest that we are 'better together'
Originally posted by tdk84
£20+billion cost of Trident is of course a tiny issue facing a country which has slashed public spending
of course its a tiny factor, your not looking at the greater picture. debt, trade, resource's, currency, nato, eu etc.
If your asking me trident is a necessity but that's a different discussion.
Lets not forget as off January the UK was in £988.7 billion in debt, which puts Scotland in £81 billion debt roughly.
Well there's the clincher surely? If we are better together in this great union, then why the huge debt?
Peace
Well there's the clincher surely? If we are better together in this great union, then why the huge debt?
Peace
Because it would be so much greater without the Union? Its not like the UK is an anomaly, a lot of countries are in debt. Were a lot more fortunate then a lot of countries in Europe, just look across the way to Spain and Ireland.
Just today Ireland have been looking at sustainable debt solutions.
Scotland will no doubt suffer more from a separation but being so close to the rest of Britain, you suffer, we suffer.
Their couldn't be a worst time to be talking of independence... maybe during an economic boom it may have grounds to actually being manageable in a sustainable way. But again, stronger together and probably the reason it hasn't happened before, people are greedy.
edit on 22-10-2012 by tdk84
because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Zecharia
And why do you suppose the leaders of a newly independant Scotland would be any less amoral, corrupt and self-advancing?
I assure you, I'm well aware of the elitist and incestuous nature of our society and it's electoral and government process - I'm not the one who is under the misguided illusion that an independant Scotland will somehow be a paragon of virtue free from the inherent misfeasance that plague's us.
You are correct but who's agenda were they serving ?
And why do you suppose the leaders of a newly independant Scotland would be any less amoral, corrupt and self-advancing?
Deny ignorance buddy.
I assure you, I'm well aware of the elitist and incestuous nature of our society and it's electoral and government process - I'm not the one who is under the misguided illusion that an independant Scotland will somehow be a paragon of virtue free from the inherent misfeasance that plague's us.
I never said they would, i mentioned earlier in the thread the dangers of this and im under no illusion this could happen.
What i did say if you took the time to read the whole thread is that i felt we would have a better chance at reform on our own path and not the one we are being led down now but im glad you agree on there being an issue with those currently in power.
What i did say if you took the time to read the whole thread is that i felt we would have a better chance at reform on our own path and not the one we are being led down now but im glad you agree on there being an issue with those currently in power.
reply to post by kingmonkey
You clearly misunderstood the sentiment behind that "rule the world" comment.
It was more an observation of what we can achieve when working together. You've chosen to try and spin that into some sort of "let's unite and conquer" battle-cry.
What I also said in a later post (it's nice cherry picking the ones you want to use, isn't it?) was that the Empire did bad as well as good. It's not romanticism, just simple facts. And, once again, don't forget the full and active participation of Scotland in the Empire, you can't have it both ways like I said to the American.
reply to post by kingmonkey
It's not arrogant at all, it's based on precedent. The Irish regiments remained part of the British Army when they got independence, the Gurkha's the same (although India also maintained a Brigade on their independence). It isn't unreasonable to assume we will keep the Scottish regiments (or at least one with the rest being disbanded). If you ask the guys in those Regiments, I think you'll find an overwhelming desire to remain in the Union anyway.
As for the Fleet, it has usually been built by a variety of yards around the UK, some in Scotland, others in England (or even Northern Ireland at one point). The current fleet (Type 45's, Type 23's, Carriers and Subs) is quite a mixed bag. All subs are built in the England, with the other surface ships being split between English and Scottish Yards. For the new Global Combat Ship contract (the replacement for the Type 23), if Scotland went independent, they would get none of this work which would effectively kill what remains of Scottish shipbuilding as it is purely defence contracts keeping them open (the same with English Yards)
You accuse me of being arrogant, but these are the facts of the matter. If you don't like them, it's not my problem, but rather yours.
You clearly misunderstood the sentiment behind that "rule the world" comment.
It was more an observation of what we can achieve when working together. You've chosen to try and spin that into some sort of "let's unite and conquer" battle-cry.
What I also said in a later post (it's nice cherry picking the ones you want to use, isn't it?) was that the Empire did bad as well as good. It's not romanticism, just simple facts. And, once again, don't forget the full and active participation of Scotland in the Empire, you can't have it both ways like I said to the American.
reply to post by kingmonkey
It's not arrogant at all, it's based on precedent. The Irish regiments remained part of the British Army when they got independence, the Gurkha's the same (although India also maintained a Brigade on their independence). It isn't unreasonable to assume we will keep the Scottish regiments (or at least one with the rest being disbanded). If you ask the guys in those Regiments, I think you'll find an overwhelming desire to remain in the Union anyway.
As for the Fleet, it has usually been built by a variety of yards around the UK, some in Scotland, others in England (or even Northern Ireland at one point). The current fleet (Type 45's, Type 23's, Carriers and Subs) is quite a mixed bag. All subs are built in the England, with the other surface ships being split between English and Scottish Yards. For the new Global Combat Ship contract (the replacement for the Type 23), if Scotland went independent, they would get none of this work which would effectively kill what remains of Scottish shipbuilding as it is purely defence contracts keeping them open (the same with English Yards)
You accuse me of being arrogant, but these are the facts of the matter. If you don't like them, it's not my problem, but rather yours.
MSPs John Finnie and Jean Urquhart quit SNP over Nato policy
would you look at that... a pro NATO vote.
would you look at that... a pro NATO vote.
Originally posted by tdk84
MSPs John Finnie and Jean Urquhart quit SNP over Nato policy
would you look at that... a pro NATO vote.
The SNP are taking a hammering today. Oh well, let's please remember that a vote for 'Yes' is not a vote for the SNP, I don't particularly want them running the country after Independence either. I'm voting for Independence not for a political party.
we all go on about how we know our governments are # , then as soon as either of us accuses the other government of any ill or wrongdoing , we are
back defending them as if they can do no wrong !
WTF !
seriously , our collective governments are #e and no amount of fixing them now will resolve our issues or make our lives permenantly better in anyway unless we do away with them all !
its quite annoying to be offered independence when all that will happen is we will have our independence but still have the same #e system keeping us down !
Why even argue the subject amongst us if we are all on the same boat , we are all being raped and taking it ! Union or no!
WTF !
seriously , our collective governments are #e and no amount of fixing them now will resolve our issues or make our lives permenantly better in anyway unless we do away with them all !
its quite annoying to be offered independence when all that will happen is we will have our independence but still have the same #e system keeping us down !
Why even argue the subject amongst us if we are all on the same boat , we are all being raped and taking it ! Union or no!
reply to post by sapien82
Well, that's probably the most accurate post I've seen in this thread for a while.
Personally I feel we have more chance of changing the system itself by standing together, strength in numbers and solidarity etc, than we have by going our own separate ways.
I know I'm repeating myself but I firmly believe that Direct Democracy and devolved powers to the individual nations and regions all within some sort of Federal Union offers the people of the UK, possibly even the whole of The British Isles, the best chance to have a real say in how we are governed and the opportunity to grow and develop into a strong and proud 'united nation' that rewards good old fashioned hard work, endeavour and enterprise whilst being a caring and compassionate society - something we can ALL be proud of.
Naive and idealistic I know but?
The important thing is that independance or not, nothing will change for the better until we change the status quo that the current outdated electoral and parliamentary systems maintain and stranglehold that the elite's, bankers and industrialists etc have over all of us.
Apologies, rant over.
Well, that's probably the most accurate post I've seen in this thread for a while.
Personally I feel we have more chance of changing the system itself by standing together, strength in numbers and solidarity etc, than we have by going our own separate ways.
I know I'm repeating myself but I firmly believe that Direct Democracy and devolved powers to the individual nations and regions all within some sort of Federal Union offers the people of the UK, possibly even the whole of The British Isles, the best chance to have a real say in how we are governed and the opportunity to grow and develop into a strong and proud 'united nation' that rewards good old fashioned hard work, endeavour and enterprise whilst being a caring and compassionate society - something we can ALL be proud of.
Naive and idealistic I know but?
The important thing is that independance or not, nothing will change for the better until we change the status quo that the current outdated electoral and parliamentary systems maintain and stranglehold that the elite's, bankers and industrialists etc have over all of us.
Apologies, rant over.
Alba gu brath!
I do hope Salmond the Sassenach knows that Alba is the gaelic form of Albion. And it means Britain.
But I doubt he does.
I do hope Salmond the Sassenach knows that Alba is the gaelic form of Albion. And it means Britain.
But I doubt he does.
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