Why this talk of France as a "friend"?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by edsinger

Till he was actually asked to put up or shut up, but he was so far up saddams arse that....well we know for sure now dont we?

I see. Let me be sure I understand your position. No country, no matter how much of a friend or what support it has given in the past, should ever decide to do aanything that the U.S of A

Ok I will bite, maybe you would ahve a point if it was not EVERY SINGLE TIME. The Government there has been knifen us for 40 years....

Originally posted by edsinger
come to think of it, the Germans and the Brits dont like em much either..

Actually, there was a very interesting event in late 2003 at one of the EU meetings... news.bbc.co.uk...

As for Britain, I was invited this summer to the French embassy in Ottawa (my workplace worked with the embassy's cultural division, so we got cocktail invitations) for the celebration of the centennial of the Entente cordiale, a treaty signed in 1904, putting an end to centuries of antagonism between the two countries. Interestingly enough, my invitation card bore the logos of both the Ambassador of France and the British High Commissioner.

The feeling I got at that cocktail (I actually had a lengthy conversation with a retired English historian) was that the current disagreement on Iraq was far from being seen as a relationship-breaking event, and that both countries view their century-old alliance as very important - it's gotten them through two world wars and the end of colonialism in Africa.

www.entente-cordiale.org...

Thats a pojnt I have made before.... Us english have fought the French almost constantly for about a thousand years...but we get on, we take the piss, but there is no hate..

Now...

The US don't get there way, and all of a sudden France is evil and wicked, and you do stupid things like renaming your french fries (or chips, as we call them, elimnates the need for renaming ) or a mustard company has to reinforce the message that it isn't french, its just a name, in order to get people buying it again... what a joke!

And every week you get crappy threads like this about "How bad France is" etc etc, get over it for fecks sake!!

[edit on 19/10/04 by stumason]

Originally posted by edsinger

Ok I will bite, maybe you would ahve a point if it was not EVERY SINGLE TIME. The Government there has been knifen us for 40 years....

Every single time? Perhaps you would care to provide what that every single time gievn every single opportunity for the last 40 years has been. Failing to do so would of course expose you as being an alarmist, bigot and republican shill.

Will you be including their total backing on the war in Afghanistan?

Will you also be including their total backing of America after the twin towers were brought down?

And more recently, will you be including the 58 million vaccine shots your government now looks to Aventis Pasteur to provide?

Is it not the height of irony that a country hated just because it refused to stand with you in Iraq, is there without question to fire a different kind of shot on your behalf? The shot that will actually save American lives instead of take them.

If anyone has been "knifen" anyone dear sir, it is you, others like you, your president, and his handlers as they plunge that blade to the shaft into a country that has stood with America time after time, all because they dared to call your war bogus, and even worse in your eyes, were right! So please, enlighten me as to what that "EVERY SINGLE TIME " in the last 40 years has been.

Hating France is soooo...90's...

SomewhereinBetween Stumason and otts, you all make real good points, and it seems that this edsinger guy makes more noise about hating french people than he does about OBL and alqaeda....its really quite laughable that someone thinks the french are more of a problem than the people who attacked america.....this guy nevr has 1 single argument with substance, always just trying to convince people that france is soooo horrible.... He has lost credibility with me as a debater.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Every single time? Perhaps you would care to provide what that every single time gievn every single opportunity for the last 40 years has been. Failing to do so would of course expose you as being an alarmist, bigot and republican shill.

Well the list would go from at least the withdrawal from NATO till the deliberate undercutting of the US attempts to get the UN's support in Iraq to enforce the UN's own threats. Of course now we know why dont we?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Will you be including their total backing on the war in Afghanistan?

How many troops did they send?? Please get real.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Will you also be including their total backing of America after the twin towers were brought down?

So was the whole world and yet when Bush told the world what we would do, no one listened and now they accuse him of being a liar? What did Bush say?

Having issued directives to guide his administration�s preparations for war, on Thursday, September 20, President Bush addressed the nation before a joint session of Congress. �Tonight,� he said, �we are a country awakened to danger.� The President blamed al Qaeda for 9/11 and the 1998 embassy bombings and, for the first time, declared that al Qaeda was �responsible for bombing the USS Cole.� He reiterated the ultimatum that had already been conveyed privately. �The Taliban must act, and act immediately,� he said. �They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.� The President added that America�s quarrel was not with Islam: �The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every [emphasis mine] government that supports them.� Other regimes faced hard choices, he pointed out: �Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make: Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.�
President Bush argued that the new war went beyond Bin Ladin. �Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there,� he said. �It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped, and defeated. �The President had a message for the Pentagon: �The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud.� He also had a message for those outside the United States. �This is civilization�s fight,� he said. �We ask every nation to join us.�


Did he lie? Nope...but when we went to carry it out the French were there knives in hand.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
And more recently, will you be including the 58 million vaccine shots your government now looks to Aventis Pasteur to provide?

Well if their is money to be made....you sont think they are doing this just out of kindness do you? Maybe they are I dunno, but it sure will provide them with ammunition to discount the obvious bias against the US.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Is it not the height of irony that a country hated just because it refused to stand with you in Iraq, is there without question to fire a different kind of shot on your behalf? The shot that will actually save American lives instead of take them.

We have had this problem with the French for a LONG time. It is just in 911 when we needed them.....they were not only not there, but undercutting us at the same time. As for saving US lives with the shots, thats great, maybe they now feel guilty, who knows why?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
If anyone has been "knifen" anyone dear sir, it is you, others like you, your president, and his handlers as they plunge that blade to the shaft into a country that has stood with America time after time, all because they dared to call your war bogus, and even worse in your eyes, were right! So please, enlighten me as to what that "EVERY SINGLE TIME " in the last 40 years has been.

Stood with America time after time????





You tell me one where they have had our back? Like has already been stated, the war of the rebellious colonists was in the French interest against their main enemy..

How about I give you one where we had france's back , besides Indochina, the Cold War etc etc? how about this one:

Originally posted by krackel He has lost credibility with me as a debater.

My loss I assure you...


I say this about France becuase I am sick of hearing how good an ally of the US they are. If you did a poll in the US , you would find that many if not most feel the same way I do. Even democrats.

And to assume that I would put the French in the same catagory as Al Qaeda, well sir you are way off....way offf..

Well the list would go from at least the withdrawal from NATO till the deliberate undercutting of the US attempts to get the UN's support in Iraq to enforce the UN's own threats. Of course now we know why dont we?

The UN "threats" to which you pertain where as follows:

demanding an immediate and full disclosure of their weapons program.

What did Iraq do?

Immediately allow in inspectors and fully co-operated with the inspections

How many troops did they send?? Please get real.

About 5000 SF and other troops, 1 Aircraft carrier and some Mirage Fighter-bombers apparently....

French Deployment

Originally posted by edsinger
My loss I assure you...


I say this about France becuase I am sick of hearing how good an ally of the US they are. If you did a poll in the US , you would find that many if not most feel the same way I do. Even democrats.

And to assume that I would put the French in the same catagory as Al Qaeda, well sir you are way off....way offf..

No one is making arguments that the french are our greatest allies, quite the opposite, people are trying to demonize france because they chose not to join us in our $200 billion mistake. and I hear you making france bashing threads every day, and as an american who is also a citizen of france, I just wonder, why do you have such a personal vendetta? What do you think you will accomplish by making more animosity between our allies? Do you honestly think if we piss France off enough and burn all our bridges with them, it will make us safer here in the US? Get realisitc, we made a mistake and we need to start fixing our errors.

krackel - actually, what I've noticed is that by ridiculing France as an enemy of America and a nation of smelly cowards who got paid off by Saddam, what some people successfully is to strip France of any right to its opinion or dissent.

The way this is achieved, among others, is to discredit the French right down to their history. And if you post links and research to disprove what is being said (namely, that France has always lost its wars), they go pretty much ignored, because they go against the plan - the value is in repetition, over and over again like a mantra, of the suggestion that France is a nation of cowards until it sinks in. This is like the old saying - by repeating a lie often enough, people will believe it.

And you know what? These people have done their work so well that no one will ever post a link to a French government source ever again. They've done their work so well that some posters have found a way to oppose the fact that France sending extra flu vaccines to the U.S.

EDITED to add thumbs down.

[edit on 19-10-2004 by Otts]

Originally posted by stumason

The UN "threats" to which you pertain where as follows:

demanding an immediate and full disclosure of their weapons program.

What did Iraq do?

Immediately allow in inspectors and fully co-operated with the inspections

How many troops did they send?? Please get real.

About 5000 SF and other troops, 1 Aircraft carrier and some Mirage Fighter-bombers apparently....

French Deployment

PS the resolutions said unhindered? Did you see they same coverage I did? I mean turcks out the back UN Inspectors in the front?????


Uh wait a second.....


KABUL, Afghanistan (CNN) -- The first contingent of French troops have joined the international peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan


See it says peacekeeping, where where they when the actual war was going on? The Brits were there......

Originally posted by krackelI just wonder, why do you have such a personal vendetta? What do you think you will accomplish by making more animosity between our allies? Do you honestly think if we piss France off enough and burn all our bridges with them, it will make us safer here in the US?

To be honest, I hope things get better but right now with friends like that who needs................

Look facts are facts........The French were telling Saddam that they would veto any effort that the US brought forth, the UN couldnt work like that.

Now we know why....

oh well now that you posted that cartoon, wow. down with France! THose bastard are trying to blow us up in iraq!!! lets invade France and march through the arc de triomphe!

Originally posted by krackel
oh well now that you posted that cartoon, wow. down with France! THose bastard are trying to blow us up in iraq!!! lets invade France and march through the arc de triomphe!

Its the irony of the sabatage to the alliance that is France.......see it is a CARTOON.

PS the resolutions said unhindered? Did you see they same coverage I did? I mean turcks out the back UN Inspectors in the front?????

I have heard this claim many times. Coverage? What on FOX? RFLMAO!!!

What I say is... Where is the proof?

If you saw trucks leaving, why did you not track them?

Where are they now? Why haven't you blown them up in air strikes?

Why haven't you trotted them out for the world to see that Iraq had WMD?

They do not exist do they?

I do not have to prove they do not exist,the burden of proof is on you to prove that they DO.

(and don't say they are in Syria as that is utter BS. If they where, then you should get them. But they aren't , so you cannot)

[edit on 19/10/04 by stumason]

edsinger:

This was your claim:

Ok I will bite, maybe you would ahve a point if it was not EVERY SINGLE TIME. The Government there has been knifen us for 40 years....

My challenge to you was to support that claim with fact, not obtuse talking points as received in your daily digest from rove.com. Therefore, responses like this suggest to me that your thoughts are not your own, and they are nothing but hollow accusations thrown out in the hopes they will find a wall and stick to it:

Well the list would go from at least the withdrawal from NATO till the deliberate undercutting of the US attempts to get the UN's support in Iraq to enforce the UN's own threats. Of course now we know why dont we?

Give me that list, or to make it more simple for you, at least the top three from the last forty years.

How many troops did they send?? Please get real.

Even one is sufficient since the French did not declare war on Afghanistan, your president did.

So was the whole world and yet when Bush told the world what we would do, no one listened and now they accuse him of being a liar? What did Bush say?

Therein lies the difference between you, me and the whole world. Bush may tell, but he does not command the whole world. One man, your exalted president, in your eyes, decided to tell/order the whole world. Lest you forget his title is President of the United States not President of the whole world. Aside from that, he was dead wrong, he was told he was dead wrong and while he considers himself to be sitting on the right hand of God, halos and all, the rest of the world considered him to be full of ----(insert your favourite synonym for feces here) and that in a democratic society, makes him wrong!

Now what exactly does his war-mongering narrative to the citizens of the United States have to do with the rest of the world and the question I asked of you?

Do you recall my statement earlier? Here it :

Failing to do so would of course expose you as being an alarmist, bigot and republican shill.

I am Canadian, therefore I will not penalize you harshly and instead count all of your failures above as one, and not three endorsements of my statement above.

Eagerly awaiting your rebuttal.

Sorry it took so long as I ahve been a bit busy but here goes....


*Refusal to allow F-111's a fly over in 1986 so they would not offend Libya.

*In June 2000, during President Clinton's last year in office, France was the only one (talk about unilateralism) of 107 countries to refuse to sign a U.S. initiative aimed at encouraging democracy around the world.

*pursuing d�tente with the Soviet Union, withdrawing militarily from NATO


*"Polish troops in Iraq have found four French-built advanced anti-aircraft missiles which were built this year, a Polish Defense Ministry spokesman told Reuters Friday.


*Charles DeGaulle made opposition to America the North Star of his foreign policy, and that was back in the 1960s.

*The country has always gone its own course, never caring about the opinion or well-being of the rest of the world. In World War II, France handed over Paris and its Jews to the Nazis without firing a shot, but managed to fire bunches of them at U.S. troops liberating North Africa. More recently, it rejected the costs of NATO, while enjoying its security umbrella.
www.decaturdaily.com...


*If France kept it�s promise to Poland and attacked Germany when it said it would, there might not have been a World War II.

*Did you know that Paris is the only modern capitol to ever be surrendered without a single shot fired in it�s defense !



A link

France hesitates in backing up the free World in its war against Islamic terrorism

Through much of the Cold War, the Soviet Union enjoyed some sympathy and support among French elites simply because it was not America. Many French intellectuals loved Stalin because he was not FDR. They supported Kim Il-sung in the Korean War because he was fighting the Americans. In Vietnam, they sided with the Vietcong because America was on the other side. They adored the Khmer Rouge for the same reason.

www.factsofisrael.com...


Another

slate.msn.com...


Pentagon adviser: France 'no longer ally'

www.upi.com...


America Has No More Use for France as an Ally

www.freerepublic.com...
America Has No More Use for France as an Ally
The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 2/23/2003 | D. EDWARD KNOWLES


Posted on 02/23/2003 8:39:03 PM PST by Utah Girl



The United States has not been seeking French support for military action against Saddam because of any material help the French could provide. Going to war without France is, in the words of former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense Jed Babbin, like going deer hunting without an accordion.

The French have no objection to unilateral military interventions. They are engaged in one now in the Ivory Coast, where they are getting badly kicked. This is a typical result.


The French haven't had a battlefield success since the time of Napoleon. The Germans whipped them in the Franco-Prussian War, and again in World Wars I and II. The Vietnamese kicked them out of Indochina, and the Algerians kicked them out of North Africa.

The only value the French could have in a "Coalition of the Willing" would be to teach the Iraqis how to surrender. But -- on the evidence of the first Persian Gulf war -- the Iraqis already have this down pat.




here is a book for you:

www.amazon.com...



France: Friend or foe?

www.msnbc.msn.com...


Trans-Atlantic troubles
Europe, America and the split over Iraq

www.msnbc.msn.com...



France Behind Forged Niger Documentation

www.captainsquartersblog.com...

I could do research and repost all the same links I've posted over and over again about the French R�sistance, the Forces of Free France fighting alongside the Americans in North Africa in 1942-43, the number of French soldiers who died before P�tain finally signed France's surrender (and he was a traitor), but what's the use? You'd just ignore them.

answer this one question edsinger:

Why do you make more posts about france than you do about terrorism?