Hebrews 5:7-10... powerful verses that challenge many Christian doctrines

Let me ask you a question:

When you take a part of infinity, does that infinity decrease?

Those who are savvy to simple math know that the answer is clearly.. No.

So if the infinite and eternal God created Jesus Christ directly of His own Spirit, then is Jesus Christ finite?

NO. IMPOSSIBLE.

Infinity is Infinity ALWAYS. No matter how you cut it.

You can point out subsets in infinity - for example there is an infinite number line. But I can make a boundary and say, "Out of all infinity, I desire only the numbers that are calculable by my two hands." And because I still have all of my fingers and I have no apparent deformities, I would therefore be commanding, according to our decimal system, the numbers one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and ten. So there is a subset here.

But if we look deeper, we see that there are infinite portions of these same ten numbers!

Jesus Christ is formed directly of the Spirit of God and is the result of the marriage of the Spirit of God with the flesh of a woman, which is the flesh of man. Infinity married something cursed to limitation (although mankind was not created with that limitation, but placed it upon himself by means of sin. God also, as it is written, put "eternity into our hearts". But we sinned and took it from ourselves - though we can access it through His Spirit, we cannot access it in our cursed flesh - which is why we have Jesus Christ! He married the Spirit of God and flesh - and now He is given the Throne because He has ascended! He is the One who makes the choice! He causes us to BE LIKE HIM.)

"As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

This verse clearly shows us that the previous verse was talking about Scripture. SO when God said, "You are my Son and today have I begotten you," that verse is talking about Scripture. Hence why the next verse says, "As he said also in another place."

I have already described what the order of Melchizedek is. Look at my very first post in this same series.

"Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;"

The semicolon from two verses ago halted the statement and made an expressive statement. This verse is the continuing of "So also Christ glorified not himself to be made high priest;"

So Jesus Christ clearly had days of flesh; but also therefore has days that are not of His flesh - or else why would it need to be made understood to be His former state of being?

He offered up prayers and supplications with His crying and tears to God, Our Father, His Spirit, the Spirit within Him (and also above, His flesh being subject to dominion of God within Him and also above and everywhere; because God is a Spirit) because His flesh feared death greatly. Is that not a normal flesh fear? Was Jesus Christ not subject to all temptations and fears the same as we are being that He was made human? And He was heard IN THAT HE FEARED. Meaning God said to Him, "I know that you are afraid". He did not leave Him alone with His crying. He was comforted knowing that He was heard - but just because we are heard, just because our complaints are received well; does that mean that God should change His will? IF it is good to do, He will. If it is not good to change His will, then He will not. He is a perfect and righteous God and He ONLY does that which is perfect.

"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;"

Notice the context here. Even though He was the Son of God; already full of the Good of His Spirit - His flesh STILL YET needed to learn obedience to the Spirit. This is the PERFECT marriage of the flesh to the Spirit. You see, it was not enough that God reintroduced Himself to the lineage of mankind - or else Jesus Christ would not have had to continue to suffer and also to die. But because of the trials on this planet that Jesus Christ suffered- because of all of His life experiences in the flesh; and many they were, much more than is written in the Bible, for it is written that He became a man and did not stay a child. So He had many years to His name. And YET as a man He had done NO WRONG. NONE OF US CAN SAY THAT!!!! He had suffered more by thirty than any of us have because He kept His flesh bridled ALL TOGETHER. And His flesh learned obedience to the Spirit within Him much the same way that our flesh becomes calloused to the pain of working with our hands, or dealing with heat, or dealing with cold; it adapts and learns. So Jesus brought His flesh into subjection unto all forms of suffering, and for the better! Sometimes we adapt imperfectly; He made no mistakes. His flesh learned to handle all that it needed to learn to handle. And it, Jesus' flesh, obeyed Him RIGHT INTO DEATH - knowing full well that He did not deserve a second of it.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

Jesus Christ is formed directly of the Spirit of God and is the result of the marriage of the Spirit of God with the flesh of a woman, which is the flesh of man.

What?
That may be a theory you made up but it is not found in the Bible.
The person who later became the man, Jesus, already existed, and had existed before the creation of this world.
I think you may want to reread the New Testament and keep a lookout for that in places like Hebrews, Philippians, and Colossians.

SO when God said, "You are my Son and today have I begotten you," that verse is talking about Scripture.

Probably the scripture where The Lord declares Solomon his chosen to take David's throne. So that language is being used to describe God indicating Jesus as being the Messiah.
You may want to also study the use of the Old Testament in the New Testament. Also the way that it should not be taken at face value since it is drawing parallels rather than (in this case) trying to be accurate in the way of a historical description of events.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

And so therefore, because Jesus' flesh died without any mistakes, without any imperfections at all -- Jesus' flesh was MADE PERFECT.

Read that again.

The flesh was in perfect subjection to the Spirit of God. The flesh no longer was tempted because it had suffered all things. IT had learned to deal with all things. IT was no longer subject to evil. It was in full perfect marriage with the Spirit of God. Jesus Christ the flesh BECAME GOD. God manifested His Spirit into flesh form. Jesus Christ IS our Idol. He is the perfect character of God made physically manifest. What was once only spiritual is now a full physical reality. And therefore the flesh was made incorruptible. The flesh had finally been granted infinity and eternity. The flesh can now tap into the very power of God. Jesus Christ is this power.

And so therefore because Jesus Christ learned all things of the flesh, mastered the flesh, caused it to be in full subjection - now the temple of the flesh is made perfect and is therefore a perfect conduit for the power of God in the flesh. So therefore whatever Jesus Christ judges, that thing is right or that thing is wrong - and He knows because He has been there. He knows what all of it is like and He knows what all of it is. He is the decider for all of us. So if we obey Him because of what He knows about us and because of what He was able to do; all we have to do is obey Him.

But make no mistake - God the Father, the Great Spirit, is still above, and all around. But He is also within the Lord Jesus Christ. Just like Jesus said, "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." Do you not see? Is not the breath of God in us all? So He is in us. And Jesus Christ is in the Father because of His Spirit. And we are in Christ because of His Word. And He is in us also because of His Word and also because of His flesh. He IS the only way we have any access to God at all other than the fact that God had given Adam His breath and He allows us to breathe still. So we are all living on the grace of God anyway; regardless of our belief in Jesus Christ. But it is our belief in Jesus Christ that grants us life and not death. For life is forever - but death is a state of temporary living that ends in nothing - for can death be a thing if there wasn't something? So therefore, it is not life that exists temporarily and then passes away - but that IS the definition of death. But life is that which, though it might go to sleep and enter into the realm of death, death cannot touch life because Life above it. Life is existence and death is not. So how can death make existence to not exist? It cannot, because itself it cannot exist to make an offense or a defense. But here is another mystery -- death itself will be destroyed! The idea of a storage place for non-existence will be eradicated because all that will exist will be all things that do exist and there will be no mention of a thing that does not exist.

"Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."

Still the glory goes to God that Jesus Christ is made not only our sacrifice, but also the High Priest which puts into force that very sacrifice. And His flesh, the bread, and His blood, the wine, He gave to us freely that He might be in us that we might be able to receive of His power and receive everlasting life and glory and blessings and even be able to, as He said, sit on His throne with Him! And HE will make us priests and kings and judges with Him. He gives us of His tithes! He gives us all things that belong to Him, those of us that believe on His name, and accept Him, and desire His love and to be like Him, and work everyday to that end! I am overloaded with joy at the mere thought! How can you NOT understand?! How can you reject such a beautiful thing from such a beautiful God?! Therein is madness! And also, here is the wisdom of the true believers of Jesus Christ - that we have not rejected such a simple to understand and a beautiful thing.

"Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing."

And I have many more to say; but only for your sake will I cut this somewhat short. Because there is no end; and the Bible is not as long as it is because so much happened -- the Bible is SHORT as it is for our sakes because we are foolish and narrow and simple and unable to sit through more than a trillion words without going crazy. One of the number one complaints from the scoffers is that the history is not fully accurate or detailed - or that some parts are too detailed - or that there isn't enough of this or that to support this thing or that thing... but the very same refuse to understand that the Holy Bible is written for the good of ALL kinds and manner of men and women and children. How much can we remember in this current form?

reply to post by TarzanBeta

God the Father, the Great Spirit . . .

So what are you doing now, teaching lore of the American Indians?
Which is OK with me but you should probably point out that it has nothing to do with Christianity as handed down to us by the Apostles.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


It's a simple matter of you not understanding the full ministry of Jesus Christ. Hebrews teaches us that Jesus became lower than the angels when he incarnated as a man and walked the earth. In other words it's God in the flesh deliberately humbling himself. Since the whole universe can not contain God,
1 Kings 8:27

"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

it is impossible for all of God to have incarnated as Jesus. In other words the father and son could not be the same being at this time.

Hebrews also teaches that Jesus is God in Hebrews chapter 1. Thus you would have to call the author of Hebrews confused or a liar to believe he would create a contradiction in his own book. Rather you instead should assume that it is possible for Jesus to be God and yet be separate from him, which is what the Bible teaches.

Hebrews 1:8

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

So the author of Hebrews directly calls the Son, God. He does so earlier in Hebrews 1:3 as well.

But the Spirit of God is alive forevermore for sure!

And because God is the author of His scriptures, we know that the Holy Bible is the best possible means for us to determine the tools we need to understand God and to begin personally receiving His commands and His wisdom.

To have a complain that God did not elaborate more on one thing or another for you is completely ridiculous. All you have to do is but ask God with a humble heart and HE WILL reveal it to you, if He wills that you know it and at a certain time that is good for you to know. And if you are patient instead of greedy, He knows that you are hungry for His knowledge; He will not make you starve. But He will make sure that you become aware as to whether you truly want to know something or if something is not valuable or worth the effort for you. So sometimes He might give you space and time. But as for me, The Lord knows me. He reveals to me often - things that I do not ask for as well. And sometimes things that I ask for He does not reveal, or He does not reveal it in a manner which I might expect. But because I am always seeking with my eyes open, my ears open, my heart open, or whatever faculties by which He chooses to reveal whatever to me, then I am able to accept what He gives. It is not because of me that I have anything; It is because He gives it. But I can do my part and simply pay attention - which is NOT HARD TO DO AT ALL. But you make it hard because of your greed for knowledge, wisdom, glory, power; whatever your motive is... all things that are good from God, but are not good for you to take unto yourselves, for that is how you make yourself, in your heart, above God - and if you claim to be above God, why would God go out of His way to help you, seeing as you are so strong that you are above God? Who is above and stronger, and asks help of the one that is lower and less powerful? So why should God help you if you consider yourself so self-sufficient? You hypocrite, you were born into a world that preexists you!!! NONE OF YOU ARE SELF SUFFICIENT. It is a bold-faced lie you tell to yourselves, your parents told you, you tell your children; self-sufficiency. As if you birthed yourself. What did you turn yourself inside out and produce your mother, your father, and yourself also? And why not the rest of your ancestors? I wonder how you plan to explain how all humanity that preexists you came from your flesh?

Are you still dull of hearing? Is it that there are too many words for you to comprehend and you are too lazy to read? If so, then why do you even attempt to read the Word of God? Or is it that you simply refuse to pay attention to the wisdom of God; which is simple and easy to understand and yet men do not come up with it of their own accord because it is not revealed, all of its genius, without the direct revelation of God - whether it be through His Spirit directly or through His scriptures. If you are dull of hearing physically, then do you still have sight? That is a silly question if you are reading this. If this is recited to you, then you have hearing. If by any other means, USE those faculties to learn about GOD however possible because YOU will see and you will hear again.

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat."

And this next verse does not really apply to the OP because the OP does not know enough to teach. But this is for all those here who gave NO attempt whatsoever at teaching. You see, you should have been teaching; but instead, you only offered milk, and not even good milk at that. You have forgotten the first principles of the oracles of God - you have forgotten the true basics; if you had not, then you would have understood how to explain the rest of the house in full detail. But if you cannot describe the doorway into which you entered, how in the world are you going to be able to explain the exquisite detail of the foyer; the stairs leading up to the sanctuary of the bedroom, the architecture and the design of the entire home - the colors, the window placement, the dining set-up, the type of flooring... all the things that go into building the house, you have failed to describe. And so you yourself have need of MILK because you cannot handle the strong meat. If you could handle the strong meat, you would have OFFERED IT with the milk which should have been given as a precursor and an appetizer to the true knowledge that one might receive; much like how I began my series of posts with a beginning statement to the most ignorant statement on the entire thread, to a poster whom, by reason of their association with a pop culture icon, claim to be so incredibly intelligent; and yet they have no knowledge or wisdom whatsoever about one of the most basic truths about God's prophets and priests.

"For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe."

We see many of us only using a few verses here and there to make our points. And we simply ask them to speak simply for themselves. And while the word of God DOES speak, does not also the Spirit of God speak through us? So then WHY are we not having conversations with our fellow human beings today? We ourselves are not books; but we learn the wisdom from God's scripture and we share it and we APPLY it.

What is right is what is right. Apply it. Simply regurgitating those things to which all people have access is not going to help unless these things are shared in better wisdom and with the light of God to reveal the purpose of the things being said.

Not to mention the clear and utter lack of passion for the Word of God. You're babes. You need to go back to the milk - or if you desire stronger meat, start BELIEVING what milk has been fed to you.

"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Those of us who are practiced in the Lord (and by no means do I claim to be the most practiced at all; I know for sure that I am, of all of His true children, the least of the proper of His children. I have no idea how to be as good as the rest of His true children, of which there seem to be very few and I sometimes question whether I have ever met another one of His! - but the character I see expressed today as a position of goodness, which seems to reflect godliness; if this character is still advertised, then it must be that people still recognize the character of goodness for what it is- although it is rare.) we are full of age by reason of our discipline. This is the whole POINT of discipleship. Discipline. It is not a coincidence that the words are the same.

I am only 28 years old. If being only 28 years old I can claim a greater age than anyone who has replied to this thread, and more-so, most people at this entire website, and even further, greater than most people on the planet (though I still know that I am the least of the ones who are wise in the Lord on this planet, though there are very few it would seem) then there is really no excuse for the rest of you. And you will hate to be convicted of it. But BE convicted of it and do something about it.

You will claim to see boldness and arrogance. But what you call boldness and arrogance God calls humility in HIS name and faithfulness to HIS Word - and the courage to speak for God knowing that He is with me and that He has given me His wisdom. AND now you know it. So you cannot deny it. So DO it.

Pray to God in all honesty. Read His Word in ALL HONESTY and integrity. Make a commitment of learning His Word in TRUTH. There is no reason to make a specific plan or a date or a schedule. Do we make plans? Or does the Lord? If He causes you to make a plan, make a plan. If He doesn't, then don't.

WE should obey our leaders; because they can not have power of us except for that which the Lord allows. But also remember that we should obey God rather than men. SO if men tell us to disobey God, by reason of His commandments, or actions against true love (which people still seem to misunderstand-- people constantly think in their fear and ignorance that true love is full of giggles and warmth and cuddles and poodles and balloons; but the reality is that TRUE Love is not ONLY full of comfort, but is also very harsh for the purpose of discipline - not anger, but discipline. But anger is there because without anger, there is no passion. But the manifestation of the anger is righteous - not that we are justified in our anger, but that we are angry for the Lord and for the love of the one who needs discipline - that we encourage and strengthen them -- and do we make people strong by cuddling them? NO! WE comfort them - which is encouraging, and also a great thing to do, if the Lord wills; for the Lord gives the increase. All work we do is completely in vain; nature might say, "If you do this, you receive this." But without the Lord, there is no increase. Nature is SECONDARY to the Lord.)


Again I will remind you that I am 28 years old and I am able to detect true good and true evil. Of course, it is not of myself - it is because of God and His Spirit within me. The Lord Jesus Christ has seen fit to bless me with His life and His power and His wisdom. And therefore I discern true good and true evil. And although I am certainly not perfect myself, no, not yet - and although I still make mistakes; I have been blessed with the ability to understand all the manipulations of evil. I have also been blessed to understand when something appears wrong on the outside and yet also to be able to see the inner-workings of an event and be able to see that there is a good heart there doing a thing that looks strange; and I am able to determine it.

This is the result of our discipline - that we are able to understand these things.

And of course, there are even greater results. There are far too many to list here. The Holy Bible gives us PLENTY of reasons to follow the Lord Jesus Christ. If those reasons aren't enough, nothing I could ever say would convince you otherwise; except that the Lord willed that you might learn some other way. Which He might, but there is nothing that comes to mind other than that which I have been compelled to say.

But you worry yourselves with your levels of intelligence; your level of knowledge; you are waiting for a change, you're seeking something new, you're fighting for glory of some kind, you're looking to blow off steam and cause a ruckus and cause strife, you're looking for some attention at any cost; you're looking to appear to God as if you're doing a good work by Him - which you may or may not, but why do you seek to appear instead of simply to just do because you love Him and not because you desire from Him?

And I understand that particular temptation as well - but is it not enough that our names are written in Heaven? We cannot please Him - the LORD Jesus Christ pleased Him. The LORD speaks for us. We please Him by loving Him and obeying the commandments of God.

And what are the commandments of God?

They are summed up easily. As Jesus said:

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mark 12:28-31

These are the commandments of God.

Now we refer to the Ten Commandments. These commandments are the commandments of God - and they are summed up in the commandments above.

But how do we perform those commandments?

By doing the acts in the Ten Commandments... easy.

As for the Sabbath, how do we perform this commandment? It used to be so easy before the captivity at Babylon - then the Sabbath became the sixth day at sundown until the seventh day at sundown (instead of following the lunar schedule, it then started following a secular seven-day week schedule which quickly differed from the moon phases and also the week matched to Babylonian time) - and then eventually the calendars were changed and the days were all switched and everything is out of whack! So How do we obey His commandment? Because we do not know the day God had appointed for the Sabbath; not yet - or at least, it has not been revealed to me yet.

Jesus saw fit to accept the Sabbath that was being followed when He was walking on the earth in the flesh. So, therefore, why should it change? But if you are not convicted of it, do not worry; because I do not believe that it is everyone's conviction or charge. But because my family believe in obeying the commandments of God, and because we started out following the Sabbath according to the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist and the Seventh-day Remnant, therefore, we, by reason of what we have become accustomed to, keep the Sabbath on that day. However, we are not so legalistic (it does not take long reading about Jesus to see - as well, He said, "it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath" - and because He IS Lord of Sabaoth, therefore, what He says is Law.) But we do not judge what day people keep the Sabbath as long as it is kept properly to what God has truly convicted them.

Just like we wouldn't judge whether someone was actually coveting a thing when they mention a thing. If my wife says, "Oh, wow I want that shovel!" Am I going to say, "How dare you covet a thing?!" Her heart was probably not filled with vile covetousness; but rather, she saw a good thing and knew that it was accessible and therefore wanted it. There is a big difference - and so we judge rather lightly these things. IN fact, we should be careful not to judge unless we know a thing because we will be judged by our words and by our actions as witnesses against ourselves! OUR HYPOCRISY IS WHAT JUDGES US IN THE END.

So. Obey the commandments of God. And do further than the commandments say - LOVE your neighbors. Do not just fear hurting them - but love loving them! And who is your neighbor? Jesus said in parable that your neighbor is whoever is near you, simply enough! So whoever is within your reach, whether it be physical or electronic, or whatever; LOVE is your responsibility.

And remember, Love is not always just hugs and kisses. Love is about putting people back in their place to set them on the right path again. Eternity is more important than NOW.

Be good.

Pray to the Lord and you will receive. Be open to receive by any means possible.

Pay attention - CLOSE attention to detail especially. But do not be full of worry or anything.

Expect to be severely tested. Expect to be laying down, feeling all of the weight of the world crushing your very soul. Expect to beg and beg for relief and for it to only be found in tiny increments.......

Only to realize after so much suffering that a lot of that suffering would not have been necessary if we had just paid attention to a thing or corrected our own attitude or foolishness. When we are in the Lord Jesus Christ, He allows us to suffer even more the consequences of our mistakes that our flesh might learn to obey Him!!!!!

HE IS SO BEAUTIFUL!

And we know it while we are suffering.. but we don't fully see it until we are out and we are looking back and seeing all the wonderful things; the adventures; the changes.

And my changes are not near complete. My spiritual changes have a ways to go and my life on this planet still has a little ways to go - and there are massive changes in store. Of which many of you will most certainly become aware.

If you have had the patience and the wisdom to continue reading, I thank you very much. I am still but a humble human being; with a passion for the Lord Jesus Christ. This passion YOU should have.

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by TarzanBeta

 

Jesus Christ is formed directly of the Spirit of God and is the result of the marriage of the Spirit of God with the flesh of a woman, which is the flesh of man.

What?
That may be a theory you made up but it is not found in the Bible.
The person who later became the man, Jesus, already existed, and had existed before the creation of this world.
I think you may want to reread the New Testament and keep a lookout for that in places like Hebrews, Philippians, and Colossians.

SO when God said, "You are my Son and today have I begotten you," that verse is talking about Scripture.

Probably the scripture where The Lord declares Solomon his chosen to take David's throne. So that language is being used to describe God indicating Jesus as being the Messiah.
You may want to also study the use of the Old Testament in the New Testament. Also the way that it should not be taken at face value since it is drawing parallels rather than (in this case) trying to be accurate in the way of a historical description of events.

edit on 10-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19

The Word is the Spirit of God that pre-existed Jesus Christ in His flesh form. The Spirit within Him IS that Word. But the flesh of Jesus Christ was created and you know this. How dare you pick and choose instead of accepting wisdom? The Spirit of God entered Mary and she became with child. Is this NOT the marriage of the Spirit of God with the flesh? Is this not the beginning of one called Jesus who became the anointed? Is NOT the Spirit of God that dwells in Him eternal? Where have I spoken wrongly?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by TarzanBeta

 

God the Father, the Great Spirit . . .

So what are you doing now, teaching lore of the American Indians?
Which is OK with me but you should probably point out that it has nothing to do with Christianity as handed down to us by the Apostles.

You are of your father Satan.

God the Father is a SPIRIT. He IS the Great Spirit. There is no Spirit that is Greater.

Have you not read?!

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 4:24

And so if I call Him a Great Spirit, He is less?? He IS the Great Spirit.

And what is wrong with the Native Americans recognizing the Great Spirit? Just because they were strayed in many ways in their religion does not mean they did not recognize Him as well.

Have you not read how Paul was in Rome and he saw all the sculptures of deities and he mourned at the sight of them; but them he saw the altar that said, "TO THE UNKNOWN GOD" -- so even the ancient Romans knew of God the Father, but did not understand Him fully. And Paul understood that and told them, "That God of which you speak, He is the one to you I preach!"

So, once again.

Where have I spoken wrongly, you who desire to contest only out of the arrogance of your ignorance?

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by windword

 

Yes, those are all signs... of his physical resurrection. I find it hard to believe that you weren't fully aware of that, so, once again, please present your "good evidence."

Oh, am I to believe that Jesus, as an example, was resurrected, with all his scars and wounds, and not glorified in perfection? Will John the Baptist be walking around heaven with his head in his hands too, in his physically resurrected body?

I don't believe that we will still be hungry in the afterlife, in our new and perfect, resurrected bodies. I don't buy it that we'll still have a need to steal honey from bees for nourishment and to kill and eat flesh meat!

Will we use rifles to hunt our food in heaven or will we have servants to do the kills, gut and skin and prepare the meat for us? Since Jesus used his mouth to eat, chewing and digesting his food, will we need toilet paper in heaven too? I bet it's softer that Angel Soft!

If we are hungry in heaven and still eating meat and stealing honey from bees, will we still have sex with the same physical entertainment system that lies between our legs and shares our sewage system, in our new and perfect, resurrected bodies? Or, will God forbid sex in heaven but allow for the murder and eating of innocent animals?

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. (John 19:31-33 NIV)

It was customary to break the legs of those crucified in order to cause their deaths quickly. They obviously didn't need to do that for Jesus, who was already dead (one assumes that soldiers would be careful enough to know the difference between someone who was dead, and someone who was "faking".)

If you'd like, I can find you a link to a pretty horrific medical article that details out, in excruciating detail, the physical effects of Roman scourging and crucifixion. It ain't pretty, take my word for it, but it makes it clear that old Nicodemus didn't take Jesus down, revive and heal him in an hour of myrrh giving (as some nitwit tried to claim recently.)

I read that article, by the quack that claims to be able to do an autopsy on no body, but based on speculation of 2000 year old rumors, ignoring the fact that the patient was up and around, walking, talking and eating.

There is no better evidence that Jesus didn't die on the cross than the fact that witnesses have him up and around, walking, talking and EATING. You can say anything you want about resurrection, but it doesn't make it true. Jesus was alive, and the fact that he needed substance and ate food is all the proof that is needed. Your facts, based on some crooked, quack doctor's opinion, are no more based on reality than Mel Gibson's movie, "The Passion."

reply to post by LeSigh


In all you bloviation, you still have provided no evidence that Jesus actually went to Hell, Hades or wherever it is that is claimed that he went.

It's pretty poetry and a great metaphor for the journey of each and every soul, but there really is no proof that Jesus did these deeds for us, on our behalf, so that we would have to.

Jesus' life is a metaphor the journey that we all must take.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

Jesus Christ did all of these things, to the full. Psalms 110:4 is the Old Testament prophecy concerning Jesus Christ and His anointing as our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

So Jesus followed after the Order of Melchizedek, he wasn't new and innovative, but just a student and teacher of another ancient philosophy?

Who was Melchizedek and why is his life and teachings so sanitized from the Bible?

reply to post by TarzanBeta

Where have I spoken wrongly, you who desire to contest only out of the arrogance of your ignorance?

You have arrogantly asserted that your perceived god is the same god of all people.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

in verse 11, you read that there are MANY things to say of Jesus Christ, and they are hard to be told because YOU ARE DULL OF HEARING.

How does take away from what the previous verses have to say about Jesus being saved from death...and that he was a human who had to learn obedience.

However, Jesus Christ HIMSELF told the disciples all things that must happen to Him and Simon Peter, when he attempted to tell Jesus that he did not have to suffer such things, was immediately rebuked because he had allowed Satan to work through him

He did.
It appears Jesus wanted a way out and prayed to the One who could save him from death for "the cup to pass from him"....
And as Hebrews tells us, his prayer was heard.

Which is a little weird considering Jesus was supposed to have been executed.
Now, I'm just reading from the text. If there is a contradiction in the text, you admit it.

Just don't pretend that the words in the verses actually mean something else.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

So I will show you the error of your way, if the Lord will it; and if you do not see the error, then you may remain in your error all the same.

You accuse me of deceit and spreading lies.
But what if it is you who have been deceived, by people who concocted the many false doctrines of Christianity? And what if I am the one with the truth? What then?

Also get this straight... I am no stranger to Christianity and I know my way around the bible. In fact, you might have liked me a few years ago, when I believed what you believe.... the doctrines about Jesus dying for the sins of the world and all of that. I literally fell in love with Christianity. Back then, my thinking was "everybodys saying this about Christ and Christianity, so this has to be true . I bought into the whole idea about Jesus died for our sins. I admit I was very touched by the concept of Jesus dying for our sins so we could be saved. I wouldn't dare question what these christians were saying back then because I thought it would be 'sin' to even question the bible. I believed if its there in the bible, its got to be true. I was very naive.

Much later, I started to develop a sense of discernment regarding the bible. I started to read between the lines and questions started piling. I started noticing the various tactics Christians were using to explain away obvious contradictions. I also started to observe how Christians would disagree with each other on so many matters. I sensed that something wasn't right.... and it just started to feel like I wasn't sure what I had walked into.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

Jesus Christ is formed directly of the Spirit of God and is the result of the marriage of the Spirit of God with the flesh of a woman, which is the flesh of man.

Nowhere in the bible does it say that there was a marriage between the spirit of God and the flesh of a woman.

Are you a Mormon or JW?

both of them are cults you know? that's why main stream Christianity rejects them.

reply to post by r2d246

Are you a Mormon or JW?
both of them are cults you know? that's why main stream Christianity rejects them.

Who are you asking? Me?