Hebrews 5:7-10... powerful verses that challenge many Christian doctrines

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Ya you

reply to post by r2d246


I said I studied in a Christian school.
It doesn't mean I am a Christian by birth.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by windword

 

They seem unable to address Hebrews 5:7-10 without giving me a theology lesson from their point of view.. or redefining terms like "death".

What's there to redefine? Here's what JESUS said would happen.

Matthew 17:22-23

22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:17-19

17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,

19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Mark 9:31

31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Mark 10:32-34

32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 18:31-33

31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

So, what's not to believe?

reply to post by Deetermined

What's there to redefine? Here's what JESUS said would happen.

Yes, Jesus said all that.

Jesus also prayed to the One who could save him from death for "the cup to pass from him"....
And Hebrews tells us, his prayer was heard.

1. Jesus said he would be captured and killed.
2. Jesus also prayed to be saved.
3. Jesus' prayer was heard.


Why is it so difficult to digest?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

However, Jesus Christ HIMSELF told the disciples all things that must happen to Him and Simon Peter, when he attempted to tell Jesus that he did not have to suffer such things, was immediately rebuked because he had allowed Satan to work through him

He did.
It appears Jesus wanted a way out and prayed to the One who could save him from death for "the cup to pass from him"....
And as Hebrews tells us, his prayer was heard.

Which is a little weird considering Jesus was supposed to have been executed.
Now, I'm just reading from the text. If there is a contradiction in the text, you admit it.

Just don't pretend that the words in the verses actually mean something else.

Did you understand this verse? You do know that the verse/comment you quoted was stating that Satan was working through Simon Peter to tell Jesus that he didn't need to suffer such things. Jesus rebuked Simon Peter for stating such a thing. Jesus knew it was God's will that he die, just like he told all of his disciples earlier.

Remember, Satan himself tried to tell Jesus that he didn't need to suffer such things and Jesus rebuked him for saying it too.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Yes, Jesus said all that.

Jesus also prayed to the One who could save him from death for "the cup to pass from him"....
And Hebrews tells us, his prayer was heard.

1. Jesus said he would be captured and killed.
2. Jesus also prayed to be saved.
3. Jesus' prayer was heard.

Why is it so difficult to digest?

Luke 22:43

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

At this point, the Spirit of God had parted from him (temporarily) and an angel was the one sent to give him strength. There would have been no need for the angel otherwise. Jesus was turning into full human status to feel the full affects that any other human would in the same situation, emotions and all.

reply to post by Deetermined

Jesus rebuked Simon Peter for stating such a thing. Jesus knew it was God's will that he die, just like he told all of his disciples earlier.

Jesus didn't "know" it was Gods will that he die.
He had a hope that God would save him...which is why Jesus prayed saying "if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will."

You know what Jesus did when he said "but as you will"? He had submitted to God.

And as Hebrews 5:7 tells us, he was heard because of his reverent submission.

reply to post by Deetermined

At this point, the Spirit of God had parted from him (temporarily)

And how do you know that?
Did you read that in the bible or are you making up your own explanations?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
8Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
-Hebrews 5:7-10




Lets break it down and go over it in detail... and see what we find.

1. "During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission."

a) Jesus had to pray to the "One who could save him from death"... showing that only God could have saved him from death. Jesus cannot be God.

You added the "Jesus cannot be God". It's not there in this verse. Jesus was setting an example for us. Recall he was man and God. So he was setting an example for us as a MAN.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


b) Jesus was seeking a way out. Recall his prayer before his capture.... "Let this cup pass from me". He did not willingly surrender to the Jews to make his so called "sacrifice".

What you have added here directly contradicts other Scripture and is only half a quotation anyway. What he prayed was, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will".

This verse teaches us that there was no other way for us to be saved.

In other places it does say that he willingly laid down his life. See for example, "I lay down my life... No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord." John 10:11-18.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


c) Jesus was heard, meaning he was saved from death. Which basically counters the claim about Jesus being dead for 3 days for three days. It cant be said that a man was saved from death AND was dead for 3 days.

You've simply misunderstood. He was saved from death in that he was resurrected after three days of being physically DEAD. This is the same way that we too can be saved from death.

You must also know that death in Scripture often refers to spiritual death, that irrevocable state of separation from God. It's not the same thing as physical death (which we all experience). This is explained elsewhere in Scripture.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


2. Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

a) Jesus had to learn obedience.
Does someone who is "fully man and fully God" need to learn obedience?

Anyone who is fully man needs to learn obedience. This doesn't imply he wasn't fully obedient. Here "learn" is in the sense of having an experiential knowledge of, not in the sense of trial and error.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


b) The promise of eternal salvation is for all who obey him...
OBEY, not just believe he died on the cross for their sins. I also don't recall Jesus teaching people that they need to believe that he died for their sins to be saved. Not even AFTER his resurrection when his followers saw him. Why is that?

This is explained at length in the book of 1 John. It's very short and I recommend reading it.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


c) Jesus was designated by God to be a high priest in Melchizedeks order.
Jesus was NOT God but instead was appointed by God.

You added the bit about Jesus not being God. It appears nowhere in the verse and is not implied by it.

After his glorification, Jesus was exalted above every name, and so was "designated" many things. He had to suffer first so that he might be glorified.

I disagree with your analysis of these verses. You are trying to read something into them which is obviously not implied.

"Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1 John 5:5.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by windword

 

Yes, those are all signs... of his physical resurrection. I find it hard to believe that you weren't fully aware of that, so, once again, please present your "good evidence."

Oh, am I to believe that Jesus, as an example, was resurrected, with all his scars and wounds, and not glorified in perfection? Will John the Baptist be walking around heaven with his head in his hands too, in his physically resurrected body?

A childish response like you've provided isn't really merited, particularly when you've missed a key point about resurrection -- we are not resurrected in heaven, we're resurrected in God's Kingdom here on Earth after Christ returns.

As to what you will eat or do, aren't those components of who you are? Aren't they aspects of your personality?

Geez, if you're resurrected and you want to be a vegetarian, be a vegetarian, I don't think that there's any law against it.

If you'd like, I can find you a link to a pretty horrific medical article that details out, in excruciating detail, the physical effects of Roman scourging and crucifixion. It ain't pretty, take my word for it, but it makes it clear that old Nicodemus didn't take Jesus down, revive and heal him in an hour of myrrh giving (as some nitwit tried to claim recently.)

I read that article, by the quack that claims to be able to do an autopsy on no body, but based on speculation of 2000 year old rumors, ignoring the fact that the patient was up and around, walking, talking and eating.

Okay, you obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, so I found the article for you. It's not by a "quack", and it isn't an autopsy, it was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) and describes the physical characteristics of Roman scourging and crucifixion. Like I said, it's not for those with weak stomachs, but it should end talk of surviving such an ordeal, apparently unscathed a few days later, apart from the odd hole or three.

On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ

You can say anything you want about resurrection, but it doesn't make it true.

Resurrection means the physical restoration of the body, and it is a key and integral point of the New Testament. All of your claims that you put forth as evidence that he didn't die are also evidence of his bodily resurrection, which is what the text says happened, and you have no evidence to say how he managed to survive and heal up without medical attention. Therefore, there is no rational reason to believe that he simply hopped off the cross and hid out for a couple of days, no worse for the wear.

Why do you even reference the Bible, if all you're going to do is dismiss, arbitrarily and irrationally, the parts that you don't agree with? Just chuck the whole thing in the trash and go find something else to occupy your time.

In addition to what I just wrote, let me add the following.

It is true that there is no passage in Scripture where it says, "Jesus is God". Nor is there any Scripture where it mentions "the trinity". These doctrines are inferred from Scripture because no contrary position can be laid out which is not obvious heresy.

That certainly doesn't make the doctrine of the trinity easy to understand.

But it's also a misunderstanding of the doctrine of the trinity to expect there to be a Bible verse which says, "Jesus is God". We find verses such as, "I and the Father are one", John 10:30. ""Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58 (a reference to "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"" Exodus 3:14). "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 (clarified a few verses later as speaking of Jesus). "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"" John 20:28.

So, the doctrine that Jesus is God is amply testified to in Scripture.

But to simply say in an unqualified way, "Jesus is God", may actually confuse the issue slightly. Jesus is the second person of the trinity, just as the Father is the first person of the trinity and the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity. So when speaking of Jesus, you are speaking of a particular *person* of the trinity. One God, three persons.

So we should expect to find verses which say that Jesus is the Son of God according to his divine nature. And we do. John 1:1, previously quoted, does just this. As does Romans 1:4, "But powerfully declared to be the Son of God, according to the Spirit of Holiness - That is, according to his divine nature."

So when we are talking about Jesus, we are talking about a *person* of the trinity as *distinct* from the other *persons* of the trinity. But we are still talking about one who is very God of very God, i.e. of the same divine *nature*.

When the truth of something is nuanced, you cannot force it into two simple categories, neither of which is accurate, and state that you have found contradictions when verses contradict one or other of the two simplified categories you created.

I should also add that from the very earliest Christian ecumenical councils, the church agreed on these doctrines. they have never and will never be in question. You are either a Christian and accept them, or you are outside the church. 1 John 2:19, "but their going showed that none of them belonged to us".

reply to post by adjensen

A childish response like you've provided isn't really merited, particularly when you've missed a key point about resurrection -- we are not resurrected in heaven, we're resurrected in God's Kingdom here on Earth after Christ returns.

This isn't a belief that is integral to Christianity. I don't believe in "layers" of heaven. We are spiritual beings, and Jesus taught that we are not bound to the physical. What is born in spirit is spirit, what is born in flesh is flesh.

Jesus also taught that his followers would not die, but have eternal life. But, if it is as you assert, the saints are still dead, laying in their graves, awaiting the return of Jesus, for their physical resurrection, to become citizens of God's kingdom here on Earth.

What was the purpose of Jesus walking around in reanimated old bones and eating and breathing, as an example of a resurrected body, only to ascend into "Heaven" and get his real glorified body? Surely our new bodies will not be made of our old bodies. The example of Jesus physical resurrection in his wounded and scarred body makes no sense.

John 3:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is what Jesus taught of life after death.

Your picture of heaven doesn't seem to much different that the way life is now. If we need nourishment, and need to take it from the life around us, the conflict between man and nature has not been rectified.

Resurrection means the physical restoration of the body, and it is a key and integral point of the New Testament. All of your claims that you put forth as evidence that he didn't die are also evidence of his bodily resurrection, which is what the text says happened, and you have no evidence to say how he managed to survive and heal up without medical attention.

It may be integral to the teachings of Paul, but not of Jesus.

There is plenty of evidence to support that Jesus received medical attention from Joseph and Nicodemus. The Bible mentions the many, many pounds of medicine, myrrh and aloes, that were used. It is also written that Joseph went to Pilot and negotiated a deal.

Why doesn't the Bible mention the "Hell to pay" for the soldiers letting the body of Jesus disappear? Why was Jesus hidden away in secret and not walking the streets for all to see his resurrected body and his victory over death?

If there were rumors floating about that the Romans failed to kill Jesus, one would think they would set out on an investigation. It is logical that his followers would make up some fantastic story of him coming back to life after death.

Maybe the reason that there is no Roman record of the crucifixion of Jesus, King of the Jews, nor a record of Roman soldiers searching and questioning the apostles, is because Pilot never had the intention of letting Jesus die.

Lets be realistic, it is no secret that these two religions are not one in the same, and in the eyes of the other depending on your faith, one of them is false so you can't have your cake and eat it to, at some point in the road there is a fork, 2 paths and many contradictions leading to the fork, red pill, blue pill scenario almost.

reply to post by Deetermined

At this point, the Spirit of God had parted from him (temporarily) and an angel was the one sent to give him strength. There would have been no need for the angel otherwise. Jesus was turning into full human status to feel the full affects that any other human would in the same situation, emotions and all.

It doesn't say in the New Testament that there was a departing of any spirit from Jesus except how a spirit normally departs from someone when they die.
Jesus was always fully human, as long as he was a human. When he would not have been was before the incarnation, meaning his birth. Since his birth as Jesus, he did feel "the full affects" of situations he was in, with those emotions that come with them, as all humans experience, and probably more so, not having a sort of filter that blocks out things that would ordinarily overwhelm most people.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

Where have I spoken wrongly, you who desire to contest only out of the arrogance of your ignorance?

Practically everything you wrote so far that I have read in this thread.
I don't know where you got your education in the matters of biblical interpretation, and I have to guess you just made them up, which is ok I suppose, being better than just never reading the Bible, which is the option a lot of people take.
Self invented interpretations may also be better than something a person parrots that is nothing but cult indoctrination.
My "desire to contest" comes from maybe something like seeing someone posting as if they are under the delusion that their fancies are a special gift and that they are infallible and a prophet.

You are of your father Satan.

That would have been something Jesus said to the people he knew would end up killing him, and not something he would have said to the ordinary sinner. I have no intention of ever killing heretics, and I have no stake in that sort of thing, not being a part of a religious institution I am trying to support for the perpetuation of my own livelihood.

God the Father is a SPIRIT. He IS the Great Spirit. There is no Spirit that is Greater.

You are creating your own definition for spirit which is not supported by the Bible. For example, in Genesis 1 it says God sent His spirit to hover over the waters of the deep. There is a person of God that is more than just a spirit that is "everywhere" as you put it.

Have you not read?!
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

That is one of the ways it gets translated. Have you tried reading that in Greek? It just says "spirit God and . . .". My guess is there wasn't a word in current usage at the time John was writing that meant "spiritual" so this was the best way available to convey that concept. If the writer really wanted to describe what you take it to mean, there is a way he could have written it to make that clear, but did not, choosing a construct that to us may seem ambiguous, but may not have seemed so to his contemporaries.
Jesus when he makes that statement is addressing the question of whether it is from this mountain or that, where God should be worshiped. On the other side of the statement is the response from the woman, about how these things will be revealed. So you have a sandwich with your quote in the middle of it, so you should understand from the context that it is the "spirit and truth" that is key, which is at the core of the reference and the point of the telling of this exchange, that the spirit means the combination of truth revealed to us in a spiritual way through the person of Jesus. It is not put into the Gospel as a scientific description of the nature of God to categorize him, but an explanation of how things work in the religious context of an interaction between man and God, which is not dependent on a material thing such as a mountain.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Jesus didn't "know" it was Gods will that he die.

Sure he did. I already posted all of the scriptures showing that Jesus told his disciples that he was going to die and raise up again three days later. Why would he say this if he didn't already know that it was God's plan?

I take back what I said about the Spirit of God parting from Jesus temporarily. Based on Jesus prayers, it appeared that he was asking God to change his plan and we know an angel came to him to give him strength. I thought God might have sent an angel in his place, since it "appeared" that Jesus felt like he was being forsaken by God when he said...

Matthew 27:46

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

But, as it turns out, Jesus was just reciting Old Testament scripture.

Psalm 22:1-2

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

So, I guess even Jesus was just living out what was already in God's plan based on what was prophesied beforehand.

If you read the rest of Psalm 22, it sounds like this whole scenario is going to play out again with the entire nation of Israel. The people of the nation will be offering up the same prayers and questioning whether or not they've been forsaken too. It looks like history is going to repeat itself, this time with Israel in Jesus' place before Jesus comes back to restore them and the nation.

Interesting to say the least.

It is easily clear who here is good and who here is not.

There are a few more here that I have recognized for myself that understand the works of God - and you can only understand by the Holy Spirit.

There are 4 posters here for a fact that believe that they are educated in the scriptures, but are not even close - and you choose to stay that way and consider yourselves high in your position. That is fine. Those that consider themselves higher than the Spirit of God will be surprised to find that the Spirit of God is not underneath them to catch them when they fall.

I know what is right and true; so therefore, I know that you are not right and true. You yourself know that you are not right and true. You have no basis for any of your statements. Your arguments are completely based upon your bias - and bias is a result of sin and the desire to hide from the consequences of that sin!

As well, you seek to completely avoid death. If the living God did not avoid death, and walked right into it willingly - then what in the world makes you think that He has saved you from that same death? But it is only sleep. What are you afraid of? You worry too much about your necks. And you are not at all well read. You do not have courageous hearts - your spirit is only of fear. Fear of God is holiness; but fear of death is the spirit of Satan because to Satan and his followers only belong death.

Have you not read how the first death is only a slumber; but the second death is utter and complete destruction?

Have you not read how the dead in Christ rise first; and then, the mystery - we will not prevent those that are dead in Christ, we will come after. And after those that are dead in Christ are resurrected, and then they are ascended, then we, if we are, who are still alive will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. We will be given instantly our incorruptible form - this is the first resurrection, upon which the second death HAS NO POWER.

But the resurrection of the dead, which comes 1000 years in the future, when Satan is loosed from his prison for a little season to go out and to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth called Gog and Magog; and he will convince them to make weapons and to attack the great camp of the saints and the city in which they dwell. And as those who are deceived of those nations (which nations are still hard to be understood; these nations must be a people not yet revealed or mentioned, as there is no direct mention of these people - because these nations are not those who are a part of the second resurrection; but rather the second takes places a little later) and Satan advances to attack that city, God rains fire from Heaven and destroys all of them. Satan is then thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death, a permanent death. Then death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire to be destroyed - because there will no longer be a place to hold those who will be separated from God, but those that do not belong to God will be eradicated from all of existence and from all of memory -- for in death , those living have memory of the dead. But those who must die the second death, there will be NO MEMORY OF THEM AT ALL. They will exist in no way, shape, or form at all, not even as a byword or a memory in our hearts. And then the sea will give up its dead and the earth will give up its dead - this is the SECOND RESURRECTION. Now remember that death and hell are completely destroyed - so these have no where to go besides complete and utter destruction. These who are a part of the second resurrection, this is called the resurrection of the DEAD. The first resurrection was the resurrection of the LIVING. So, therefore, the living DO sleep; what we call death. But the DEAD also sleep until their appointed time of judgment.

And all these nations and peoples will line up before God and will be judged, each according to their works and the words they have spoken. And as many as are not found written in the Book of Life, the same will be destroyed utterly and erased from all existence and memory.

We will judge angels also.

And so I am compelled to say that the nations of Gog and Magog, in the four quarters of the earth, are the devils, the fallen angels, the soldiers of Satan. They have made a place for themselves until the appointed time - they were never eradicated yet, and there is no other mention of their destruction - other than the fact that it is written that we will also judge angels; so how much more should we judge the smaller matters on this planet?

And so therefore you see the end of all of your works, here, you who refuse the Holy Spirit and only expect that your personal education has gotten you anywhere. It will fail you horribly, because you will DIE.

And because you see fit not to hear the Holy Spirit, it is God's will that you not be heard and saved from the SECOND DEATH. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth

Love my family here that you see. Actually one here is my family that I did not know until very recently - and I would not have guessed that he was.

The Lord truly works in mysterious ways. The hearts of men are truly difficult to decipher between men; but the Holy Spirit reveals all.

reply to post by windword

Who was Melchizedek and why is his life and teachings so sanitized from the Bible?

Why are the teachings of John the Baptist "sanitized" from the Bible?
Because they become irrelevant in the face of the fulfillment of them.
Same thing applies with whoever this Melchizedek person was in the face of the coming into the Land of Canaan of Abraham, who is essentially the high priest of that area, or of the God of that area, taking the word God in a general sense of a being of a spiritual order higher than an ordinary mortal man.
Melchizedek gets a mention in the New Testament to use his name and title as a descriptive term to be applied to Jesus, and it cares little or nothing for the person of Melchizedek as having any further use than that, to give imagery for a concept otherwise difficult to grasp.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Why do I get the idea that you have another name on this site called Scorpion . Both of you are deluded .