Hebrews 5:7-10... powerful verses that challenge many Christian doctrines

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Keep in mind that the entire context of what is mentioned in Hebrews is dependent on other part of the same book and interconnected with the larger context of the entire story of the Bible. This is a common mistake that can be made with scripture. Consult the seven rules of Hillel for more on this. Seven Rules

7. Davar hilmad me'anino (Explanation obtained from context)

The total context, not just the isolated statement must be considered for an accurate exegesis. An example would be Romans 14:1, "I know and am convinced by the Lord Yeshua that nothing is unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Paul is not abrogating the kosher laws, but pointing out to gentile believers in the congregation at Rome (within his larger context of Romans) that: 1) things are unclean not of themselves but because God said they are unclean, and 2) they must remember the higher principle, that their "freedom to eat what is unclean" is secondary to the salvation of unsaved Jews who are observing their behavior, as they are looking for "gentiles coming into the faith of Israel" to be acting in an "appropriate manner" as a truth test of Paul’s ministry (and Yeshua’s Messiahship).

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Take what I just said and consider how Hebrews opens the context to the Son of God.

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Related this to the context of another book.

1 Colossians 1:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

How would you answer your presuppositions when viewing the larger context based on just these two verses? When looking at the isolated context, it's easy to create a pretext unless you juggle the larger picture in your mind. This is hard to do for all of us. Scripture is not simple. Faith makes things possible, not easy.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Enochwasright, I appreciate the time and effort you are putting into your posts.

But those are all just theology lessons from a christian point of view. You are just pulling up an unrelated verse from somewhere else and saying "look, the son is this and that".

It really does NOT address the verses in question.

Try and simplify by addressing the points in the OP.

1. If Jesus was "fully God and fully man"... why did he need to "learn" obedience?
2. If Jesus was crucified.... why does that verse say he was saved from death?


Can you answer these simple questions directly?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

It cant be that he was both "saved from death" and dead for 3 days.

You really don't have any business trying to make interpretations of the Bible and going public with them, for a couple reasons.
You don't have the proper motive, to start with.
Second you allow the bias caused by the motive you do have, to cause you to fail to comprehend it.
What you end up with is something of no use to anyone.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
1. I thought "truths" about Jesus divinity and his crucifixion are universal for BOTH gentiles and Hebrews.

Universal as far as Jesus goes, yes, but Gentiles and Hebrews are not universal and see things in different terms.

One of the things that a lot of people just don't seem to understand is that Jews, particularly Jewish religious leaders, didn't just sit around on the corner, debating theology or philosophy with anyone who happened by. They were very exclusive (and inclusive -- if you were Jewish, you dang well better believe what everyone else believed) and so foreign concepts, like the incarnation, would have to be very carefully spelled out, in the terms of Hebrew Scripture.

Hebrews 5:7-10 clearly depicts Jesus as not divine and having been saved from death, among other things.

Again, this refers to Christ's human nature. Expand the text out, rather than taking it out of context, and you'll see the full picture. But, again, and I can't emphasize this enough, you have to think like a First Century Jew, not a 21st Century agnostic or whatever.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


You forget that Jesus also said "Father, not my will, but yours".
Jesus was obedient to the the Father's will. Just like the obedience of a good son. Jesus' humanity wanted to live, but His spirit, mission, and Father wanted Life for all.

Peace to you

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

a) Jesus had to pray to the "One who could save him from death"... showing that only God could have saved him from death. Jesus cannot be God.

Jesus is not God by "person", he is God by "nature". This is not theology just plain common sense . Here is a little example. The son of a billy goat is a billy goat. The son of a lion is a lion. The son of a horse is a horse. The son of a man is man. The son of God is God. The two questions that answer Nature and person are Who and What. Jesus was his own person, however his nature was truley divine. Understanding who and what Jesus was/is renders the rest of your argument meaningless.

reply to post by jmdewey60

You really don't have any business trying to make interpretations of the Bible and going public with them, for a couple reasons.

Ok, so who's interpretations of the bible am I supposed to subscribe to?

In fact, isn't Christianity full of people disagreeing over with each others interpretations?
I've seen on so many occasions, people calling themselves "Christians" cant even agree with each other on so many matters... So its no use just picking one group and taking their interpretation as the truth.

Hence the need for everyone to study the bible on their own and spot out loose ends.

You don't have the proper motive, to start with. Second you allow the bias caused by the motive you do have, to cause you to fail to comprehend it.

Its not really about "motive"...its about whether or not one is inclined to blindly believe everything in the bible is true.

You see, bias works both ways. When people are biased towards thinking everything in the bible is true, they force themselves to start making sense of even the most blatant contradictions... "up" is interpreted as "down", if it conflict with the over all belief... in this case, Jesus' divinity and his supposed death.

When this inclination is removed, one begins to read the text for what it is... because the language and the meaning of words do not change. If it says its "up" you see it as "up"... and refrain from looking for ways to make "up" read as "down".

reply to post by backcase

You forget that Jesus also said "Father, not my will, but yours".

Thats correct.

Now... was it in the Fathers will to save him from death, like Jesus prayed for?

Hebrews 5:7 seems to suggest so.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Anyone who has read the bible or even seen the stories of Jesus on TV knows that Jesus is the Lord come down and taking on the flesh and to be the Acceptable Sacrifice for Sin . Jesus is His fleshly name . He is the Son of God the Father . He prayed to the Father who is in charge of all of it . You might think of the Lord Jesus as the overseer of the Fathers estate . Jesus did know everything he would go through including dying even though the Father would raise him up on the 3rd day . How would you like to be scourged and nailed to the cross and left to die and feel every lash , every nail ? Jesus had no doubt of who he was and had power to stop the crucifixion at any time . But chose to carry out the will of his Father . Jesus did die the first death as is appointed to every man who ever walked in the flesh . Elijah and Enoch who were taken by God over 2000 years ago will die too in Jerusalem as the two witnesses .
Isaiah 45 verse 7 will tell you who the Lord is .

reply to post by Theophorus

Jesus is not God by "person", he is God by "nature". This is not theology just plain common sense .

This is not common sense, its just your own personal theology.
Jesus never declared he was "God by nature" or anything else.

P.S - Some Christians say he was "fully God and fully man". Do you subscribe to that belief?
Some Christians say Jesus was actually the God of the Old Testament in human form. Do you agree with this?

reply to post by SimonPeter

Jesus had no doubt of who he was and had power to stop the crucifixion at any time .

Then why was he praying to God to be saved in the first place?
Again, you are replying with theology.

That does not magically make Hebrews 5:7-10 disappear.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Ok, so who's interpretations of the bible am I supposed to subscribe to?

Geez, that's pretty obvious -- whatever resonates with you. If you think that there is some merit in the Bible, or in Christ, read it, meditate over it, pray about it, and the answer will be clear. If you still think it's a bunch of crap, then go explore some other faiths, like Islam or Hinduism.

jmdewey is a Seventh Day Adventist. I'm a Catholic. There are Eastern Orthodox on here, Charismatics, Pentecostals, Evangelical and non-demoniantional Protestants, Baptists, etc, etc, etc. Everyone will say that they are right, but only you can say what is right for you. And if that's "none of the above", so-be-it, and you move on to some non-Christian faith.

reply to post by adjensen

jmdewey is a Seventh Day Adventist. I'm a Catholic. There are Eastern Orthodox on here, Charismatics, Pentecostals, Evangelical and non-demoniantional Protestants, Baptists, etc, etc, etc. Everyone will say that they are right, but only you can say what is right for you. And if that's "none of the above", so-be-it, and you move on to some non-Christian faith.

If Christianity is really an anything-goes kind of religion, then is there a name for people who only focus on the words of Jesus, while rejecting Paul and all that grand theology woven around him?

What would you call someone who studies exclusively the words of Jesus, without being influenced by what Christian doctrine teach about Jesus?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n



Luke 22:
70. They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"

He replied, "You are right in saying I am."


Jesus claims in the bible that he is the son of God. The son of anything can only be that thing ( by nature). The son of God can only be God. There is no other way to interpret this.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by adjensen

 

jmdewey is a Seventh Day Adventist. I'm a Catholic. There are Eastern Orthodox on here, Charismatics, Pentecostals, Evangelical and non-demoniantional Protestants, Baptists, etc, etc, etc. Everyone will say that they are right, but only you can say what is right for you. And if that's "none of the above", so-be-it, and you move on to some non-Christian faith.

If Christianity is really an anything-goes kind of religion, then is there a name for people who only focus on the words of Jesus, while rejecting Paul and all that grand theology woven around him?

What would you call someone who studies exclusively the words of Jesus, without being influenced by what Christian doctrine teach about Jesus?

Well, I'm sure that there is such a perspective (Akragonism, if nothing else, lol,) but the more I reread of Paul, with such complaints in mind, the more I wonder why people are up in arms about him. Go read Romans and tell me what bugs you about it, because I'd guess that you'd really struggle to find something.

People associate Paul with the Catholic church, for some reason (though that is fairly well wrong -- the Protestants always cite Paul and ignore James,) but practically, he's mostly on people to stop acting like jerks, so you wonder why people would be in favour of them acting like jerks, instead.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Jesus was heard, but that does not mean that the Father does not know what is best for His children. Also, Jesus being the Word, said that He would be crucified, and what the Word says is the Truth, just as in the scriptures the Promise was made.

I have a question for you: have you ever asked for a gift for christmas, and got some thing other than what you wanted?

Peace to you. Out of Christ's love for man, He walked His Father's will to the Death of selfless, spotless Sacrifice.

reply to post by Theophorus

Luke 22: 70. They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

What version of the bible are you using?

The KJV reads differently:
70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

So Jesus was saying "You're the ones saying I am the son of God"... He was NOT confirming what they asked.

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Luke 22:
70. They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"

He replied, "You are right in saying I am."


Jesus claims in the bible that he is the son of God. The son of anything can only be that thing ( by nature). The son of God can only be God. There is no other way to interpret this.

edit on 8-10-2012 by Theophorus because: spelling

Tsk tsk! Context, context!

Luke 22:
63 And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him.

64 And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?

65 And many other things blasphemously spake they against him.

66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying,

67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.

69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

Jesus never said he was God, or even the only son of God.

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

reply to post by backcase

Jesus was heard, but that does not mean that the Father knows what is best for His children.

The verse in question clearly states that Jesus prayed to the 'One who could save him from death', and that his prayer was answered because of Jesus' reverent submission.

So it means he was "saved"... and there is no question of him being "sacrificed".