Real Christianity = not being a Christian

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

The essence of Christianity is Christ's two commandments -- love God, and love everyone else as yourself. The first is important because it's the only thing that makes the second possible.

Sorry, but I don't believe that. Looking around at all the atheists, you're saying that none of them are capable of loving his neighbor as he loves himself, out of pure moral integrity?

I say atheists because those are the only sure-fire ones that I know don't put stock in a higher power, and so they have nothing to draw their morals from except conditioning. Regardless: they don't follow the commands of a higher power, and yet many would even treat their enemy respectably, just because fighting and conflict isn't appealing.

How do you explain that, according to what you just posted?

I would challenge you to live that way for a week and see how easy it is by just "intending" to do it. Remember, it's not "be nice to the people you hang around with", it's "treat everyone, from those you physically interact with, to people you talk to on the Internet, to people that you pass on the street, to people that live on the other side of the world, to people you don't even know, but talk about (like politicians or celebrities,) with all the respect, concern and devotion that a normal person would ask for themselves."

If you're not always thinking and saying good things about others, spending a lot of your free time out volunteering, and doing everything possible to reduce conflict and lift up others, you're not doing it right.

Sounds easy... pretty much impossible. And I'm not saying that most Christians behave that way, I'm just saying that's the challenge that we have.

I asked if Afterinfinity believed in other dimensions


he said

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Jordan River

 

I believe the other dimensions are composed of Source's being, to put it in dogmatic terms. But the dogmatic terms are a little bit 'flavored' for my taste - there's better ways to express it, but I don't want to lose your willingness to listen by showering you with blasphemies.

So that's a yes.

Then I asked if Heaven can be one of those dimensions and he said

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Jordan River

 

Heaven is what we make in our minds. No one decides that but us. Heaven is a frame of mind, and so is hell. Outside of us, there is no dimension called hell or heaven. That is a fairytale designed to scare children, or a grossly warped translation of a translation of a translation of a metaphor.

Then I said

I ment why is heaven a frame of mind when you believe in other dimensions but heaven cannot be one. Thats a oxymoron

Then he said

Originally posted by AfterInfinity reply to post by Jordan River

 

In order for there to be a dimension called heaven, all souls must be judged. That means there's judgment going on. A truly omniscient being, such as the one I believe in, is not able to judge because it perfectly understands ALL SIDES of the equation, and knows that one act is simply an alternative expression of another. No judgment. Therefore no heaven, and no hell. No judgment, only learning over the course of multiple lifetimes. After all, we're just an extremely finite expression of Source. Each and every one of us. Like the egg.

Then I said

That still doesn't explain why you believe in other dimensions and not heaven... that logic is flawed.... And for a perfect omniscient being that sees all side of the equation therefore determines "nothing" (meaning no judgement) must not use any part of perfection to perfect others, therefore enlightenment does not exist. (the bettering of self)

and I still don't know your answer on why heaven couldn't be another dimensions (realm) such as paranormal (real paranormal) activity etc.

Originally posted by dominicus
In the Bible (Mt 18:3) Paraphrased Jesus is saying for people to "Be like Children"

When a baby is born, that child is not any labels, neither Christian, Jew, not an Atheist, not agnostic ....no positions at all, a blank slate ....just merely aware.

Children have no titles like doctor, engineer, technician, specialist, etc..

They don't worry about work. They don't take life seriously. They don't care if the economy falls, they don't care if there's a tornado approaching, they hit your car, scratch it and just laugh it off.

They eat without any regards to manners, they will not wash their hands if not told, they make a mess and they don't care. They are unsophisticated, uncivilized, in fact, they love nature, wandering in forests!

They don't know money, they treat is as would a blank paper, they chew it, tear it pieces, play with it.

What else, they love animals, they often treat them as equals.

I bet most of you will disgust an adult who acts as such....

....But have you noticed Jesus is very much like a child?? With the exception of just bigger and more knowledgeable. He slept through a storm in the middle of the sea, he praised a woman who acted like a kid, who 'wasted' a year worth's salary in perfume, he ate without washing his hands, he led a band of fishermen whom tend to have bad manners, stink and unsophisticated (no offense to real fishermen here, it used to be my past time but not anymore!)

Jesus was very close to nature and animals, he didn't care if he was annoying, drove a lot of people away, gave people food, and told them while they were eating, that food is a bad thing

Oh and Jesus asked Peter 3x if he loved him more than their catch of fish?? Much like a stubborn kid! What else, his biological mother and brothers were looking for him thinking he's out of his mind!

I'm not trying to paint a Jesus who need professional help....

....But to Christians I'm speaking to right now, do you really know Jesus whom you all profess to follow?? Would like to be identified with someone who is uncivilized, had bad manners, annoying, stubborn, probably unkempt/unclean, who told you are driving a useless junk even if you're driving a ferrari, who will call you foolish even if you had PhD in this and that, will tell you what a waste of life even if you managed to establish a great career, nice house, great family, who will tell you are naked, wretched and poor despite having all those things?

Originally posted by adjensen
Sounds easy... pretty much impossible. And I'm not saying that most Christians behave that way, I'm just saying that's the challenge that we have.

Setting the bar that high for your challenge and then admitting that most Christians don't meet that standard makes your challenge moot. If anything, it shows that having a personal relationship with Jesus doesn't make anyone any better than those who don't have one.

Originally posted by dominicus
In the Bible (Mt 18:3) Paraphrased Jesus is saying for people to "Be like Children"

When a baby is born, that child is not any labels, neither Christian, Jew, not an Atheist, not agnostic ....no positions at all, a blank slate ....just merely aware.

As the child grows older, a mind forms from programming and labeling everything as "my name", tree, house, car, girl, boy, constantly updating divisions and labeling of everything.

What Jesus was saying, was to deprogram yourself and all labeling and go back to the original awareness you were as a kid. That means to also get rid of all labels such as "Christian, believer, male, female"

So ultimately, to be a Christian means more so to go to an original state of pre-programmed awareness, which means you also let go of a the label of being a "Christian" or being anything for that matter.

Non duality/Advaita Vedanta is the way. Return to non conceptual awareness and you will be full of childlike wonder.

Non duality explained by Tony Parsons:
youtu.be...

When the two become one the kingdom shall be revealed.

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by adjensen
Sounds easy... pretty much impossible. And I'm not saying that most Christians behave that way, I'm just saying that's the challenge that we have.

Setting the bar that high for your challenge and then admitting that most Christians don't meet that standard makes your challenge moot. If anything, it shows that having a personal relationship with Jesus doesn't make anyone any better than those who don't have one.

I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, based on the conversation. AfterInfinity said that "love everyone as yourself" was easy enough to do for those who don't love God (or hate him, in fact,) so I pointed out what that phrase truly means and suggested he give it a go and see that it is not, in fact, easy to do. The Christian belief is that, if we do "love the Lord God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength," we receive the grace to do what we cannot do on our own.

As for "most Christians can't manage it", so what? Most people can't run a marathon, does that mean that it's impossible, or that people shouldn't aspire to it? "Most Christians", or people that I refer to as "checkbox Christians," have no relationship with God whatsoever, only go to church on Christmas and/or Easter (if then) and it's unreasonable to think that they could manage it.

Originally posted by adjensen
I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, based on the conversation. AfterInfinity said that "love everyone as yourself" was easy enough to do for those who don't love God (or hate him, in fact,) so I pointed out what that phrase truly means and suggested he give it a go and see that it is not, in fact, easy to do. The Christian belief is that, if we do "love the Lord God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength," we receive the grace to do what we cannot do on our own.

I came to that conclusion because that is what it says.

As for "most Christians can't manage it", so what? Most people can't run a marathon, does that mean that it's impossible, or that people shouldn't aspire to it? "Most Christians", or people that I refer to as "checkbox Christians," have no relationship with God whatsoever, only go to church on Christmas and/or Easter (if then) and it's unreasonable to think that they could manage it.

I've seen those who do have a relationship with god come up short as well, so your idea that it only applies to sunday christians is wrong.

reply to post by Labrynth2012

This scripture deals with loving everyone as yourself, and almighty GOD with all your heart. There is no prejudice, no malice, no murder, no lies, no deceits, no fornication. 6

A child has no concept of loving everyone, loving themselves, or who or what God is. They are merely aware and their logic and rational faculties are not yet established. I CLEARLY remember a sense of awe, wonder, and crystal clear awareness.

Now to continue the lesson.... No where does CHRIST say to DEPROGRAM yourselves. You are placing words in the Saviors mouth, not something I would do for more obvious reasons.

Jesus said do not love the world or anything in it, be in the world but not of it. If someone who was programmed by the world comes to learn about Christ, how is there no deprogramming going on? Further more Christianity has a slew of verses that deal with ego death, (deny yourself and pick up your cross, i die to the self daily) and many more. Coincidentally(or is it) i myself spent quite a few years in Christianity, and after getting rebaptized, experienced a mystical holy spirit indwelling, which killed my ego and ......... drum roll please .... completely destroyed everything i ever knew and brought me back to a mystical and child like awareness, awe, wonder, timelessness, and love.

So now we both cant be right. You say your interpretation is right because you've been taught so. I say its wrong because i have been at first taught as you have, been then directly experienced that it is about ego death, deprogramming, and mystical experiences. So i wouldn't be so sure of yourself that I'm placing words in anyone's mouth.

Your OPINION is that everyone should not call themselves CHRISTIAN who believe in CHRIST and GOD. That is utter non-sense. It is what separates the BELIEVERS from the NON-BELIEVERS (Who are known as PAGANS). Then, there are the MUSLIMS who follow ISLAM. The HEBREWS who follow JUDAHISM, the BUDDISTS who follow BUDDAH and so on, then there are the ATHIESTS who believe in NOTHING.

You can separate all you want...... i only see souls created by God and love all. I no longer need to divide and separate....or label individuals based on ideological bs, when the real us, is the soul and we are equally created by God who loves all.

On top of that, i know more sheikhs, muslims, mystics, and Buddhists who are like Christ, than the Christians i have met. That's saying something

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by adjensen
I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, based on the conversation. AfterInfinity said that "love everyone as yourself" was easy enough to do for those who don't love God (or hate him, in fact,) so I pointed out what that phrase truly means and suggested he give it a go and see that it is not, in fact, easy to do. The Christian belief is that, if we do "love the Lord God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength," we receive the grace to do what we cannot do on our own.

I came to that conclusion because that is what it says.

Really? Here's your conclusion:

it shows that having a personal relationship with Jesus doesn't make anyone any better than those who don't have one.

Now, explain to me where it says that in my post.

I've seen those who do have a relationship with god come up short as well, so your idea that it only applies to sunday christians is wrong.

Neither I, nor anyone, has said that having a personal relationship with God makes one perfect, but my personal experience has been that people who attempt to put God first in their lives do a better job of also putting others before themselves. Your experience, apparently, has been different, which speaks to the subjectivity of the matter, and negates your previously stated conclusion as being one of opinion (as is mine, but I didn't represent it to be anything else.)

Originally posted by adjensen
Now, explain to me where it says that in my post.

The post is about people who don't have God in their lives not being able to put others before them while implying that those who do have a relationship with god are given the means to do so.

Neither I, nor anyone, has said that having a personal relationship with God makes one perfect, but my personal experience has been that people who attempt to put God first in their lives do a better job of also putting others before themselves. Your experience, apparently, has been different, which speaks to the subjectivity of the matter, and negates your previously stated conclusion as being one of opinion (as is mine, but I didn't represent it to be anything else.)

Which is why I said that your challenge is moot.

reply to post by adjensen

Neither I, nor anyone, has said that having a personal relationship with God makes one perfect, but my personal experience has been that people who attempt to put God first in their lives do a better job of also putting others before themselves. Your experience, apparently, has been different, which speaks to the subjectivity of the matter, and negates your previously stated conclusion as being one of opinion (as is mine, but I didn't represent it to be anything else.)

My take and personal experience, is that one of the factors of the teachings of Christ, is that one eventually undergoes a spiritual and mystical transformation, which makes it easy to love all people.

For myself, prior to my personal transformations, i could care less about strangers because my mind saw them as strangers. After all my mystical experiences, now my heart is involved and sees all as souls, and there is genuine love for others, which was lacking prior to studying the teachings of Christ

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by adjensen
Now, explain to me where it says that in my post.

The post is about people who don't have God in their lives not being able to put others before them while implying that those who do have a relationship with god are given the means to do so.

Neither I, nor anyone, has said that having a personal relationship with God makes one perfect, but my personal experience has been that people who attempt to put God first in their lives do a better job of also putting others before themselves. Your experience, apparently, has been different, which speaks to the subjectivity of the matter, and negates your previously stated conclusion as being one of opinion (as is mine, but I didn't represent it to be anything else.)

Which is why I said that your challenge is moot.

That doesn't even make any sense. The challenge was in regards to whether behaving in that manner was "easy", irrespective of whether God is in ones life, or not. AfterInfinity said that God was unnecessary, that an atheist could manage to live in that manner, and all I said was "it's not that easy, try it for a week and see."

Your opinion, and mine, as regards whether God would make it easier is of no relevance, because his assertion was that it was easy without God.

Originally posted by adjensen
Your opinion, and mine, as regards whether God would make it easier is of no relevance, because his assertion was that it was easy without God.

So it is just as easy/hard with/without god?

Looks like a moot point to me, which is all I said.

reply to post by adjensen


I've seen atheists do that just as well as anyone else. But if you're getting technical about it, then I'd have to say that atheists do no worse than Christians. Something to remember: Christians do it for themselves as much as they do it for the people they're respecting. They expect a reward out of it. It's a prerequisite. Atheists stand to gain nothing by helping other people, because they don't have that reward given by "God".

So considering that they have those issues to contend with, I'd say they have less motivation, and therefore deserve more recognition than you've given them. And I'd say they've done a hell of a good job. At least as good as your Christian brothers...and perhaps better.

Originally posted by daskakik
moot point

You keep using that phrase, I do not think it means what you think it does

AfterInfinity made a perfectly valid claim - that acting that way was easy. I made a perfectly valid counter-statement, that it was not, and that he was welcome to try it and see.

If he does so, and comes back to report that it was easy, he has demonstrated that he was right, and I was wrong. If he does so, and comes back to report that it was not easy, he has demonstrated that he was wrong, and I was right. Ergo, "the jury is still out" and your claim that the point is moot is flat out wrong.

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by adjensen
Sounds easy... pretty much impossible. And I'm not saying that most Christians behave that way, I'm just saying that's the challenge that we have.

Setting the bar that high for your challenge and then admitting that most Christians don't meet that standard makes your challenge moot. If anything, it shows that having a personal relationship with Jesus doesn't make anyone any better than those who don't have one.

Thats a good point. IMO....

Whether or not someone openly expresses their love for Jesus does not set them up on a pedestal of others.

The heart is where the love of Jesus is found whether or not one knows Jesus or not. Jesus can be known through the heart of the spirit. He has many names and the one name he represents is that of Love.

The heart does not lie, but the lips of man does.

A person who goes to church, been saved, may not exemplify the heart of an atheist who gives himself to his community and whose self worth is of no importance.

The money changers can claim they love God but again the heart doesn't lie.

All mens hearts and or spirits are judged from their intent of love for their fellow man.

Originally posted by adjensen
You keep using that phrase, I do not think it means what you think it does

Sure I do you.

AfterInfinity made a perfectly valid claim - that acting that way was easy. I made a perfectly valid counter-statement, that it was not, and that he was welcome to try it and see.

That isn't exactly what he said. He said:

Looking around at all the atheists, you're saying that none of them are capable of loving his neighbor as he loves himself, out of pure moral integrity?

You went on to post a list of what that means and then say that even christians have a hard time living up to that. By that logic, if he comes back and says he was able to live up to that standard then he was right. But, if he comes back and says he was not able to live up to that standard, the fact that most christians don't either, means his experience is "of little or no practical value or meaning"

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

I've seen atheists do that just as well as anyone else. But if you're getting technical about it, then I'd have to say that atheists do no worse than Christians.

That's debatable, but we can let it go for the time being.

Something to remember: Christians do it for themselves as much as they do it for the people they're respecting. They expect a reward out of it. It's a prerequisite. Atheists stand to gain nothing by helping other people, because they don't have that reward given by "God".

That's a very shallow view of altruism -- do atheists not "feel good" by doing good? Do they not see banding together to be charitable while promoting atheism is self-serving? (Video) And then there is the view of evolutionary sociobiology that says altruism is an innate behaviour that helps to perpetuate the species, so they're being rewarded, whether they know it or not. Dawkins and Wilson just have a tough time sorting out what that really means.

So whether atheists have some sort of "pot at the end of the rainbow" view, or not, it is incredibly naive to say that "Atheists stand to gain nothing by helping other people".

Protestant Christians, on the other hand, do not see that they will "expect a reward out of it" -- Reformed, in fact, view their "good works" as being repugnant to God, so I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

Originally posted by daskakik
I'm an atheist and I love my neighbor as I love myself. As far as I'm concerned the jury has rendered its verdict.

Well, I'll take your word for that, and good on you.

Originally posted by LeSigh
reply to post by jimmiec

 

Gnostics came along after the Church had been around a while. If people are going to assert that gnostic beliefs are the original Christian beliefs, then they carry the burden of proof. Good luck with that.

Are you implying that Gnosticism arose after the death of Jesus, and became an alternative interpretation of the teachings of Jesus?

This is just untrue. Pythagoras, Plato and Socrates taught Gnostic philosophy. As a matter of fact, John 1 is a complete hijack of Pythagorian teachings of sound and vibrational harmony.

There is no word or action but has its echo in Eternity.

There is geometry in the humming of the strings, there is music in the spacing of the spheres.

(Pythagoras 582-396 BC

But Jesus answered, "I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!"

Above and before all things, worship GOD!
Above all things reverence thy Self
True and perfect Friendship is, to make one heart and mind of many hearts and bodies. (Pythagoras)t

He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" Luke 10:27

It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
(Pythagoras)

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Matthew 7:6

We are also told that Pythagoras:
"distributed his pupils into two orders, and called the one esoteric, but the other exoteric. And to the former he confided more advanced doctrines.... Whenever anyone repaired to him with a view of becoming his follower, the candidate-disciple was compelled to sell his possessions, and lodge the money with Pythagoras, and he continued in silence to undergo instruction, sometimes for three, but sometimes for five years. And on being accepted, he was permitted to associate with the rest; and remained as a disciple, and took his meals along with them [this is identical with the corporate structure of the Essene community and brotherhood]. If otherwise, however, he received back his property, and was rejected. These persons, then, were styled Esoteric Pythagoristae (Hippolytus, Refutation, I, ii).
essenes.net...

Clearly Jesus was a disciple of the mystery school, founded by Gnostics like Pythagoras, Plato and Socrates and Buddha, all of which predated Jesus by some 500 years. Gnosticism came before Christianity, and is mirrored in the teachings of Jesus, as is Buddhism.

JESUS: "A foolish man, which built his house on sand."
BUDDHA: "Perishable is a city built on sand."

JESUS: "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed."
BUDDHA: "Confess before the world the sins you have committed."

JESUS: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the foregiveness of sins."
BUDDHA: "Let all sins that were committed in this world fall on me, that the world may be delivered."

JESUS: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
BUDDHA: "Consider others as yourself."

JESUS: "If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also."
BUDDHA: "If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon all desires and utter no evil words."

JESUS: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you."
BUDDHA: "Hatreds do not cease in this world by hating, but by love: this is an eternal truth. Overcome anger by love, overcome evil by good."

JESUS: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
BUDDHA: "Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world."

JESUS: "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone at her."
BUDDHA: "Do not look at the faults of others or what others have done or not done; observe what you yourself have done and have not done."

JESUS: "You father in heaven makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."
BUDDHA: "The light of the sun and the moon illuminates the whole world, both him who does well and him who does ill, both him who stands high and him who stands low."

JESUS: "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
BUDDHA: "The avaricious do not go to heaven, the foolish do not extol charity. The wise one, however, rejoicing in charity, becomes thereby happy in the beyond." www.thezensite.