Real Christianity = not being a Christian

reply to post by adjensen


How does God convey his will? Do you believe that God has a plan for everyone?

If someone has a knack, penchant or talent for something and that something gives them joy and they find a passion in it, so they pursue it as a lifestyle, like say a writer or a ballerina, aren't they following God's will though their own?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

How does God convey his will? Do you believe that God has a plan for everyone?

Yes, even those who don't believe in (or hate) him.

If someone has a knack, penchant or talent for something and that something gives them joy and they find a passion in it, so they pursue it as a lifestyle, like say a writer or a ballerina, aren't they following God's will though their own?

I think that it's a leap to say that anything that comes to mind is God's will, no. Are there things that don't matter? Probably. But does everything factor in? That would kind of fly in the face of "free will", so I would tend toward "not necessarily."

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Do you think that free will is an evil thing? Don't you think that if a person truly and purely is aligned with their free will that they are also being aligned with God's will?

edit on 3-10-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

When it comes to making choices, whether your choices are evil or not is determined by where they fall in God's commandments and if they glorify him or satan. For example, if your use of your choices ends with the murder of an unborn child, or anyone else for that matter, then you just made an evil choice and you glorified the Destroyer. If your use of your choices ends with feeding the poor, clothing the needy, ministering to the poor in spirit and the brokenhearted then you made a righteous choice and you glorify God. It's not about excersicing your own free will, it's about submission to Christ's will, you sacrifice your will to follow his. As John the Baptist said "I must decrease, He must increase". Just because you excersice your will does not mean it aligns with God's, he has his own plans and a bigger picture to worry about.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

reply to post by adjensen

it's about submission to Christ's will, you sacrifice your will to follow his

How does God/Christ convey his will?

Originally posted by windword
How does God/Christ convey his will?

That's a good question, and I'm not sure that the answer is anything more than my fallback...

We have three aspects of spirituality -- personal faith, religion and theology, in decreasing order of importance.

God's will shows up in one of those three (usually religion) but remains in communion with the other two.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

reply to post by adjensen

 

it's about submission to Christ's will, you sacrifice your will to follow his

How does God/Christ convey his will?

For his believers, through his Spirit which becomes our conscience. It's written in the last days people will depart from the faith following after doctines of devils and decieving spirits, having their consciences seared with a red hot iron.

1 Timothy 4:1-5

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Their consciences become "seared with a hot iron" when they refuse to hear the voice of Christ that has become their own consciences.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
How does God/Christ convey his will?

That's a good question, and I'm not sure that the answer is anything more than my fallback...

We have three aspects of spirituality -- personal faith, religion and theology, in decreasing order of importance.

God's will shows up in one of those three (usually religion) but remains in communion with the other two.

In you opinion, can one's free will be aligned with their personal faith, thus creating a communion in which God's will can be expressed?

My view of spirituality is a dance, a marriage dance if you like, between the bride and groom, as they are one in spirit. His will is her will and her will is his. The tempo, steps and spontaneous individuality are the expression of free will.

If one is in harmony with the "Holy Spirit" one shouldn't fear what direction their free will may take them.

But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what you shall speak, neither do you premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak you: for it is not you that speak, but the Holy Spirit

Can't this theme be carried into everyday living? Can't "speaking in tongues" be in English and be in action, and still be expressed though individual free will?

Originally posted by windword
How does God/Christ convey his will?

A companion question would be, how does one know that one has understood what his will is?

Let's say that you are put in a position to give someone money. A homeless person asking for some help or a friend asking for a loan. You are then left to make the choice of helping them out or not. You might feel like you would be doing the right thing by giving them the money but what if they use it to harm someone else. Was giving in this case against gods will? Would you have been in line with his will if you had acted stingy? How would one know?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

reply to post by adjensen

 

it's about submission to Christ's will, you sacrifice your will to follow his

How does God/Christ convey his will?

For his believers, through his Spirit which becomes our conscience.

That's quite the "Catch 22" there. His will isn't revealed until one believes, so how can one believe if one can't hear God's voice?

It's written in the last days people will depart from the faith following after doctines of devils and decieving spirits, having their consciences seared with a red hot iron.

It's always the "last days" in the Bible and there are always wicked people following false gods and demons.

1 Timothy 4:1-5

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Their consciences become "seared with a hot iron" when they refuse to hear the voice of Christ that has become their own consciences.

Then what's the point? It sounds like we're all doomed to be spiritual zombies.

Who is commanding us to abstain from food and forbidding to marry? (GAYS???) What has that got to do with free will?

reply to post by windword

That's quite the "Catch 22" there. His will isn't revealed until one believes, so how can one believe if one can't hear God's voice?

He will draw them to him, he will knock but they have to open the door.

It's always the "last days" in the Bible and there are always wicked people following false gods and demons.

The last days began 2000 years ago. When Jesus arrived it was into the 4th day of man's labors since the fall (1000 years is as one day). Now we're in the end of 6th day, just before the 7th day and Millenial reign of Christ begins. People have been saying Jesus was coming back for 2000 years but they didn't know those things, nor did they know the timeline given in Revelation 17 established by Israel during it's inception as a nation, by which we were to know when the end times would begin. Specifically Revelation 17:9-11 which tells us just how close we are to the beginning of Jacob's Trouble. We've gone back to the days of Noah when following after false gods and worshipping demons was acceptable which tells us even more how close we are to the very end.

Then what's the point? It sounds like we're all doomed to be spiritual zombies.

Not necessarily, some depart the faith, not all and they do so because they want to follow after their own wills. Following after Christ's will ensures the resurrection of his people. However, who the wicked people that are who go into Gehenna is imbedded in Matthew 25:31-36, as is who Christ's brothers and sisters are in relation to Mark 3:33-35 and the righteous who do for them that do for him who are rewarded.

Who is commanding us to abstain from food and forbidding to marry? (GAYS???) What has that got to do with free will?

That in itself doesn't have to do with free will, that has to do with the Nicolaitans, it was just part of the passage i quoted.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
How does God/Christ convey his will?

That's a good question, and I'm not sure that the answer is anything more than my fallback...

We have three aspects of spirituality -- personal faith, religion and theology, in decreasing order of importance.

God's will shows up in one of those three (usually religion) but remains in communion with the other two.

In you opinion, can one's free will be aligned with their personal faith, thus creating a communion in which God's will can be expressed?

I think that's the point of our spiritual journey -- growing in faith and developing a relationship with God so that, at some point, our will is not subjugated to his, but is in harmony with his. I am far more charitable than I once was, and I'm not that way because I think I'm doing God any favours (giving up my will, in deference to his,) but because being helpful to others has become my will -- it's now a part of who I am, and it would be strange to not be that way.

My view of spirituality is a dance, a marriage dance if you like, between the bride and groom, as they are one in spirit. His will is her will and her will is his. The tempo, steps and spontaneous individuality are the expression of free will.

If one is in harmony with the "Holy Spirit" one shouldn't fear what direction their free will may take them.

I think that's a beautiful and poignant way of putting it, thank you for that.

Can't this theme be carried into everyday living? Can't "speaking in tongues" be in English and be in action, and still be expressed though individual free will?

One of my favourite "evangelism" lines is from a non-evangelical, and it speaks to my way of thinking:

Preach the Gospel at all times and, when necessary, use words.

- Saint Francis of Assisi

If we act in a manner that reflects Christ's light into the world, everything else just sort of falls off.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


How Beliefs Shape Our Reality

According to this, Christianity is more a product of the mind than anything else. When the ideas in the link are taken into consideration, you have to start questioning everything in the faith. And when I say "have to", I mean the only other alternative is you choose to ignore it.

And if you're just going to ignore stuff, why come to this website?

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by windword
How does God/Christ convey his will?

A companion question would be, how does one know that one has understood what his will is?

That's why I think that it is important to have those three components -- personal faith, religion and theology. They are in descending order of important, but they present a "check and balance" system. Just because something seems like a good idea doesn't mean it's in accordance with God's will, whether it's something you think up, or something that your preacher says. But if all you rely on is that one aspect -- religion, for example, in the case of the person who blindly accepts what his minister says -- you're far less likely to be in accordance with God's will than someone who balances things out and thinks it through.

Let's say that you are put in a position to give someone money. A homeless person asking for some help or a friend asking for a loan. You are then left to make the choice of helping them out or not. You might feel like you would be doing the right thing by giving them the money but what if they use it to harm someone else. Was giving in this case against gods will? Would you have been in line with his will if you had acted stingy? How would one know?

There are two ways to look at it, one practical, one spiritual. From a practical standpoint, what someone does with money that you have given them in good faith is on them, not on you. If you knew, for a fact, that the homeless guy was going to buy drugs with the money (let's say that there's a drug dealer standing right behind him with his hand out, lol,) then I think you're right in saying "no", but otherwise, you can't be faulted for their actions.

On the spiritual side, this is hard to explain, if you've never felt it, but my experience has been that, as I've developed a closer relationship to God, I have moments of... I don't know how to describe it, maybe "direction" or "insight", that prods me towards doing something I otherwise would not have. In a real sense, I view it as God revealing his will for me, in that moment, to me. Ultimately, it's my will that decides what I'm going to do, but at least for me, in the past ten years, I am beginning to have a clearer picture of what my role in this world is.

reply to post by wildtimes

me: there is still the initial free will to choose.

wildtimes: No, there is not. The baby is by definition influenced by the "nature" of what his or her circumstances are.

There is still free will on how a baby will react to each and every influence & circumstance

The baby's brain adapts to what-have-you in the environment

Which is implying that there was a pre-adapted/prior adaptation moment in time.

even while still having innate temperament, disposition, interests, talents, soul-wisdom (Yes, I DID go there)

yet we don't see any of this the first day, week, month .......of birth, until a later time

To say that babies are "blank slates" is backward. No, they are OPEN SLATES.....and will be influenced by the circumstances into which they are born. Therefore, your argument that "morality" is only available to those children of "church-goers" or the "religious" is wrong.

WHAT?????? Are you crazy??? Where did I ever argue that morality is only available to children of church goers or religious?

My whole post revolves around going back to a time prior to any influence of any churches or religions, so how the heck did you ever jump to that conclusion?

Dude!! What does a baby's brain and temperament (&tc) have to do with whether or not they have a soul?

HAs everything to do with it. For example I remember myself having existed prior to a body and personality, and was asked to come down and be "born" on "earth" which at that time I had no idea what "born" or "earth" were. Pretty big implications if you ask me, considering science has yet to discover the soul.

You didn't answer the question: Have you had children, and raised (reared) them? Have you worked with countless newborns and 0-3-years-old kids?

Around them plenty, yes including allowing a cousin to live with me who raises hers in my house hold. My own, no. However, having once been a child and gone through childhood, and asking others if they remember pure awareness and wonder & awe carries each their own weight

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

How Beliefs Shape Our Reality

According to this, Christianity is more a product of the mind than anything else. When the ideas in the link are taken into consideration, you have to start questioning everything in the faith. And when I say "have to", I mean the only other alternative is you choose to ignore it.

When I see someone pontificating like that, I like to find out what their background is, whether they are someone whose opinion is trustworthy or not. That guy's "about" page starts out like this:

Greetings and welcome to Advanced Life Skills. My name is Jonathan Wells and like you, I am a student of life. The truth is, you and I are probably not all that different. You see, I’m not a behavioral psychologist, a motivational superstar, or a world famous philosopher and I’m guessing neither are you.

As a Certified Personal and Professional Breakthrough Strategy Coach my mission is to help you achieve your goals as quickly as possible. It doesn’t really matter whether those goals are personal or professional in nature. What really matters is that you are motivated to move forward. If you are willing to take action and are looking for someone to help you make rapid progress, I can help you. If you’ve got the will, together we can find the way. (Source)

Which reminded me ever so much of this guy:



I also see from one of the comments on that "About" page that he appears to have some anti-vaccine views, which doesn't do much to further endear him to me.

So you'll forgive me if I ignore "Mr Advanced Life Skills" on matters of faith.

And if you're just going to ignore stuff, why come to this website?

What, are you saying that he's not welcome at Above Top Secret if he doesn't agree with you, or listen to this bozo?

reply to post by adjensen


That doesn't mean the guy is wrong. See, I can find a dozen sources who say the same thing: if you believe strongly enough, it becomes real in your own mind, whether it's real in the outside world or not. That's why it's called belief - it's in the mind.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

That doesn't mean the guy is wrong. See, I can find a dozen sources who say the same thing: if you believe strongly enough, it becomes real in your own mind, whether it's real in the outside world or not. That's why it's called belief - it's in the mind.

So, if you believe in something strong enough, you'll wind up believing in it?

I once believed in Affirmations (horrible web site, sorry. Another one to bookmark for my "kooks field guide", lol) but it fell out of favour, because philosophically, we would all want to live in the best of all possible worlds, which is not the case.

I did win about $700 one night in a casino, using affirmations, before I dismissed the belief, though

Originally posted by adjensen
There are two ways to look at it, one practical, one spiritual. From a practical standpoint, what someone does with money that you have given them in good faith is on them, not on you. If you knew, for a fact, that the homeless guy was going to buy drugs with the money (let's say that there's a drug dealer standing right behind him with his hand out, lol,) then I think you're right in saying "no", but otherwise, you can't be faulted for their actions.

That makes sense but there could also be another position, that it was god's will that you give them the money even if you see the dealer standing right behind him. It is gods will that this guy receives a last warning and straightens out or OD's that night and your part is to give him the means to buy that last dose.

On the spiritual side, this is hard to explain, if you've never felt it, but my experience has been that, as I've developed a closer relationship to God, I have moments of... I don't know how to describe it, maybe "direction" or "insight", that prods me towards doing something I otherwise would not have. In a real sense, I view it as God revealing his will for me, in that moment, to me. Ultimately, it's my will that decides what I'm going to do, but at least for me, in the past ten years, I am beginning to have a clearer picture of what my role in this world is.

People have these all the time. Most usually replace "as I've developed a closer relationship to God" with "As I have grown older".

I guess my main point is that knowing if you are doing his will is really impossible. The OT has stories of people being told to do things, by god, that would probably trip your spiritual alarm and have you go against his will.

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by adjensen
On the spiritual side, this is hard to explain, if you've never felt it, but my experience has been that, as I've developed a closer relationship to God, I have moments of... I don't know how to describe it, maybe "direction" or "insight", that prods me towards doing something I otherwise would not have. In a real sense, I view it as God revealing his will for me, in that moment, to me. Ultimately, it's my will that decides what I'm going to do, but at least for me, in the past ten years, I am beginning to have a clearer picture of what my role in this world is.

People have these all the time. Most usually replace "as I've developed a closer relationship to God" with "As I have grown older".

Yeah, like I said, it's not easy to explain. It isn't wisdom, or anything that is learned, because it's not you deciding to do something, it's a feeling that you should decide something and how you should decide it. It's the phenomenon of deciding something, often for very logical and sensible reasons, but something keeps digging at you that you need to do the other thing, in spite of you thinking it the wrong (or undesirable) choice, but when all is said and done, you've changed your mind, done the other thing, and it turns out to have been the right thing to do, after all.

I guess my main point is that knowing if you are doing his will is really impossible. The OT has stories of people being told to do things, by god, that would probably trip your spiritual alarm and have you go against his will.

Probably true, and I think my earlier point, that as we grow in our relationship, our will becomes more in harmony with God's, somewhat addresses that, though not entirely, as you point out.

Originally posted by adjensen
Yeah, like I said, it's not easy to explain. It isn't wisdom, or anything that is learned, because it's not you deciding to do something, it's a feeling that you should decide something and how you should decide it. It's the phenomenon of deciding something, often for very logical and sensible reasons, but something keeps digging at you that you need to do the other thing, in spite of you thinking it the wrong (or undesirable) choice, but when all is said and done, you've changed your mind, done the other thing, and it turns out to have been the right thing to do, after all.

But that same thing that you feel may be what others feel without the god part. It would seem to be intuition, gut feeling or a nagging feeling or even "Spidey sense".

Probably true, and I think my earlier point, that as we grow in our relationship, our will becomes more in harmony with God's, somewhat addresses that, though not entirely, as you point out.

Well the problem I have isn't if it does or does not, but how would one know either way.

Also, once you acknowledge that even dirty deeds may be part of god's will then that opens up a can of worms.