US Hypocrisy.

reply to post by NavyDoc

Were they? The Bushes were involved in WWII? Wow, I'd like to see some sort of evidence about that.

Link

George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.

reply to post by Sinny


I do wish you would stop lumping us all together. It sounds like it's fun for you. I am American and I abhor many of the things my country's government is responsible for. I've only read a page of the thread so far and I just wonder what is it you are trying to accomplish by posting all this. Do you really think that we don't know about the bad stuff? I do and I don't like it. But I also don't like people from other countries going out of their way to bash us. You just mentioned the PMs to you and said, basically, "see haha I told you the Americans are like this!" Yeah I know you didn't say those words, but the feeling was there.

I ask you this, what exactly *are* you trying to accomplish here?

reply to post by HabiruThorstein

The US isn't what it once was, and that's a shame, all too true. Fortunately slowly but surely, we will be getting back to isolationism.

It never was what people think it once was. It was never about isolationism, it was incrementalism. The only thing slow was the time they took to boil the frog. But I guess that's just the way it goes because 85% of us are utterly clueless about what it was, what it now is and what it will be.

85% of Americans clueless on Agenda 21 usactionnews.com...

The people who planned the past are no different than those who have planned your future.

Some old dead guys warned you. Here's one:

Let me entreat you, my fellows, to consider well what you are about. Read the said constitution, and consider it well before you act. I have done so, and can find that we are to receive but little good, and a great deal of evil. Aristocracy, or government in the hands of a very few nobles, or RICH MEN, is therein concealed in the most artful wrote plan that ever was formed to entrap a free people. The contrivers of it have so completely entrapped you, and laid their plans so sure and secretly, that they have only left you to do one of two things-that is either to receive or refuse it. And in order to bring you into their snare, you may daily read new pieces published in the newspapers, in favor of this new government; and should a writer dare to publish any piece against it, he is immediately abused and vilified.

Look round you and observe well the RICH MEN, who are to be your only rulers, lords and masters in future! Are they not all for it? Yes! Ought not this to put you on your guard? Does not riches beget power, and power, oppression and tyranny?

www.wepin.com...

Who do you think prospered through all of the patriotic "self-defense" killing that some twist themselves into knots to justify? Who do you think warns you not to romanticize the "noble Indian" who lived FREE on the land for thousands of years asking for no more than was needed to LIVE free, while making you a slave to their fairy tales of "those evil dudes over there"? Who do you think has always fomented wars to depopulate the land and steal the resources of the world while humanity is pushed into ever smaller places, now called sustainable micro housing where you can exist with thousands of other people that you will come to despise.

Isolationism? Hardly, its centralization, because the aristocrats can never get enough. And soldiers on both sides of any war have always fought for no reason other than so the aristocrats will finally get enough to satisfy their hunger and leave us alone. With nothing.

Hmm.. Intersting study in cultural-and mindset differences between Americans and, in this case, Europeans/Brits.

Having family in the US of A, I'm in the interesting position here, of being ableto see both the American and European mindset.

Americans, by default, apparently Identify with the abstract "America" and thusly react like bitten, when someone critiques the "abstract" America. Feeling it as a personal attack.

Europeans, on another hand, have an amazing lack of "patriottism" (save some nutters with a penchance for brown shirts) in the sense that, when someone calls their country (UK in this case) corrupt, or whatever, they shrug and go : "yup, true dat". Assuming immediately that the critiques were aimed at their Government, nót them personally. Contrary to Americans.

It's something that a poster from another continent (island.. ) should keep in mind. The sheer amount of patriottism demonstrated by the flag-waving and shouting "America the greatest" is something that triggers an inate dread in Europeans, a result of WW2. Something American posters should keep in mind too. For many Europeans "Patriottism=Nationalism" and it has thrown Europe in more wars than they care to remember, allthewhile America has been pretty stable since it's inception. It leads to a vastly different discours

When push comes to shove, and one digs in deeper, it becomes apparent that American posters are often ás critical, even moreso sometimes, as Europeans, of their own government.

However, the knee-jerk "that darn'd Euro effète wussie is attacking me, kill it, kill it with fire" is hard to set aside, because the posts get pretty venomous by times.

Again, I am sitting next to the court, seeing the balls going back&forth, repeating the same bad swings... Shame.

There is a critical difference in culture between Euro's and Americans. Our superficial resemblances are just thát. There is McDonalds, there is tons of American brands, but that doesn't make Europe an "America 2"

The best treatise on that, was done by the writer of "The European Dream" Jeremy Rifkin. He sumsup the differences, and also has some healthy criticism on Europe mentality. As well as American mentality.

The OP pointed at "Americans" but probably meant "a Tendency of The Government". Most Americans I know (family) vets included, are nó more fond of war and violence then every other normal person. Okay, they are rabidly right-wing in my book, but that fíts within the culture they live in. As is, for example, their fondness of guns. It's part of their culture. My opinion on those facts do not matter..much..

As a Euro, I come from a different paradigm, where f.i. individuality isn't as cherished as it is in America. Where "freedom" has a rather different meaning. F.I. In Europe "Freedom" means The "freedom" to be free of debilitating healthcare insurance by means of socialized healthcare, or the "freedom" from poverty by grace of a rather efficient system of social security. Etc.

Yet, no "freedom" in f.i. Building a house exáctly as You want, on ány plot. The "freedom" to carry a gun in public. (irrelevant wether I am pro- or contra that) rules, regulations, limitations galore.

(no, I am nót defending cultural relativism, but just stating facts)

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Were they? The Bushes were involved in WWII? Wow, I'd like to see some sort of evidence about that.

Link

George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.

So were the Kennedys so was Ford. Meh, everyone was investing in Germany before the war because it was an up and coming economy, so such accusations of malfeasance are laughable at best. Still does neither establishes the premise that the US government supported the Nazis nor does it establish the premise than any of those business people supported their underlying philosophies.

reply to post by NavyDoc




You scoff and ask for links and then when they're provided you claim that it was perfectly acceptable investing in Nazi Germany because everyone was doing it. Oh, so that makes it all okay then?

It goes to show that regardless of the country's political situation and odious policies companies were quite happpy to invest their money there.

There is also the case of IMB providing the machines which calculated all the number of dead who passed through the gates of the concentration camps. My source for this is a film called The Corporation...you should watch it, it's very good and touches upon the above points.

Have you heard of the Fascist coup that was planned to overthrow FDR and General Smedley Butler's role in that?

reply to post by NavyDoc

So were the Kennedys

Joseph Kennedy (JFK's father) was US Ambassador to Britain if I recall correctly and by all accounts he was quite the anglophobe so I'm not surprised that he'd harbour sympathy towards the Nazis.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

The half a million was just a SWAG.

Gotcha. Makes sense.

The point about slavery was not intended to dismiss that abomnination, but rather to point out that the US at the time did not have the full beginnings and ends of that issue. African AMericans in the south, having bought their freedom, did own slaves and the last major society to ban slavery was Brasil in 1885. Slavery still exists in Africa and the ME. Most people do not realise this.

Yep. Hell...slavery still exists once in awhile in the United States. Remember the Citrus Hill Orange Juice fiasco in the '80's? They were literally buying and selling human beings. Although...these isolated cases are much different than legally sanctioned, institutionalized slavery. India, Nepal, and Pakistan practice slavery too assuming one includes the strict adherence of social castes as equating to slavery.

You are quite correct about the Bushido culture. THis is one reason why the invasion of Japan would have been problematic. I remember having a tour of the Japanese Naval Academy on Etajima and being struck by the wall sized photo of the Wasp sinking and a room full of Kamakaze letters to home. That was a fanatical time and, IMHO, surrender was not coming lightly.

Yep. I don't dispute for one instant that invading the Japanese mainland would have been a nightmare. Much in the same way that I think the US would experience extremely high casualty rates by invading China...this is why we file these sorts of schemes in the "Really Bad Idea" file and don't even attempt them. However...I cannot for the life of me see ANY reason at all why we would have, could have, or should have invaded Japan in the absence of a nuclear weapon. They are completely isolated, their ground forces crushed, no navy or air force, no manufacturing left to speak of, and they don't have any steel, oil, gasoline, coal, aluminum, or rubber on the island except for whatever can be salvaged. Again...what are they going to do? Not much except sit there until they surrender.

Sure, the US has had problems over the years, but as a guy who has been boots on the ground in IRQ and AFG and various areas through the ME, I disagree with the notion that the US military is a bunch of war criminals. Our ROE are incredibly strict and US lives have been lost when this loss could have been avoided except we wanted to protect civilians and historical structures. Those who say we rampaged an pilliaged willy nilly are speaking from a position of ignorance because they were not there. I have been and they are liars.

Oh...the "Boots on the Ground" have INCREDIBLY high ethical standards compared to any military force in the history of the entire world. However...the "boots on the ground" aren't the problem. It's usually the "Pricks in Washington", the "Kid With a Joystick and a Drone", "The Unintended Consequences of Destabilizing Entire Regions".

It's no surprise that civilian casualties are much higher in drone strikes than anywhere else...the further away the individual is from killing someone the less personal it is and it's more like killing as an academic concept. Likewise, I'm sure you'll be the first to attest that Iraqi's or Afghani's kill ONE ANOTHER far more often than the US kills one of them...but so what? They're just as dead.

It reminds me of well-intentioned missionaries in the 1800's who would set out to bring "civilization" and Christianity to places like Paupa New Guinea or Indonesia. They bring along some bibles, some trading goods, and great big bag of crowd diseases like smallpox or measles to decimate the native population. They didn't TRY to infect them that's just what happens when a bunch of europeans show up to say hi to an isolated native population.

I'm just saying that the "noble" intentions of the missionaries doesn't mean sh^t...they still killed a bunch of natives just by BEING THERE.

So...really...the blame for most of the hypocrisy claims ought to fall on the guys who declare all of these bullsh^t wars. I don't blame the PILOT of the Enola Gay for Hiroshima...I blame Truman and Co. You know why? Because THEY NEVER TOLD the pilot that he was going to be nuking people who had been trying to surrender OR that there were a bunch of American POW's that he was going to be vaporizing.

No different than Colin Powell and Baby Bush lying to the entire country AND our military about the WMD in Iraq. We rush in and a bunch of good Americans die along w/ 500,000 civilians to look for something that doesn't f^cking exist. Blaming some 19 yr old kid from TN for the dead civilians...I blame the sh^tbags who lied to every single one of us...military and civilians ALIKE.

...and I think defending those lies and the sh^tty judgement that got us into this mess is hypocritical to the 10th degree when we are allegedly against killing civilians.

reply to post by Hefficide


It's funny how you mentioned people buy their protest supplies from wal mart. Then they buy their Guy Fawkes mask, and every Guy Fawkes mask that's sold, Warner Brothers receives compensation.

I think Ron Paul is a red herring only to the pro obama and Romney supporters. Even then some people that support Romneyobama have changed their minds to voting for Ron Paul.

You have to admit that Ron Paul is sparking an intellectual revolution. People are becoming more involved in politics, reading up more on conspiracy theories and becoming more active for their rights.

I can't wait for this Human Plantation that cares more about Kim Kardashians ass then the big red and white dick that's screwing them over everyday to come crashing down.

All of this reminds me of Bill Hicks popularity in America. It was next to zero. But, in England, he was widely popular. He toured in America for over 10 years and he never received the popularity that he got in Britain. There's definitely a different mindset in this country. Call it mercury, fluoride, whatever. This country has turned into an apathetic human farm.

reply to post by nightstalker78


That's not my problem nor are they my problem..Simple..

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Antonio1
reply to post by Sinny

 

Funny, you compare the U.S. to 1933 Germany, and say that anyone who defends the U.S. has an agenda, but you somehow don't?

No, but she love the IRA. I guess knee cappings and bombings are cool when she agrees with it.

I think you might just be right.

Originally posted by Sinny

Originally posted by nightstalker78
reply to post by MrInquisitive

 

"I don't see the OP blaming all the world's woes on the US. Her point is the hypocrisy of the US, which claims to stand for freedom, free speech and peace-loving intentions, and knocks other countries that don't hold to this line, but the US itself is one of the biggest offenders. Hence the post's title: US Hypocrisy"

Yeah,she does.She's calling the US hypocrites while letting the rest of the world off for doing the samething.It's typical of her.She constantly bashes the US,but fails to mention what other countries do. It's her style.It's rather comical actualy.Im sure she'll be along shortly to bash me too,because I don't agree with her.

ANYONE here who thinks the US is the only hypocritical nation seriously needs a break from ATS.

You know. I've only just noticed how much anger you keep directing towards ME.

I know your talking BULL CRAP, because I'm actually pioneering to uncover all the English's despicable secrets... You don't realise I'm currently half way through research into Bloody Sunday (among other things), The privation of the English police force, the chemical spraying of ours coasts in the 60's, the disastrous Falklands War, English use of depleted Plutonium, the abuse of Mental Health institutions, the inner workings of MI6, and the Elite Peadophile sex rings....

So don't you walk around here accusing me of this, and accusing me of that, when you know naff fekking all.

I'm loyal to no country other than that of Northern Ireland, so they're is absolutely no bias in postings. If I decide to talk about the US I'll talk about them, if I decide to talk about Russia, I'll talk about them, If I decide to talk about your mom, I'll talk about her.

This thread was compiled in the space of ten minutes, as I had a rebuttal aimed the anti-Assange members, and I also had a few piks that I thought I'd make use of.

Deal with it

Oh but for someone who obviously dislikes Britain and England, judging by your location you seem to be more than comfortable here. If you hate this country so much and feel so loyal to Ireland why don't you go back? Just like the millions of Muslims who live here and who hate us because they don't agree with our politics or culture. You all bloody moan but not one of you want to go back home!

You Irish have always been moaning about the British since I can remember but yet we have massive Irish communities here in Birmingham and all over England. Why is that?

You can tell how oppressive a nation is by the amount of citizens that can't deal with it being criticized.

"You think you're so clever and classless and free, but you're still peasants as far as I can see" John Lennon.

Originally posted by Sinny

Originally posted by nightstalker78

Originally posted by Sinny

Originally posted by SonoftheSun
reply to post by Sinny

 

Well, after reading this OP, I sure as heck am happy to be Canadian...

Not saying your facts aren't straight Sinny but there are always two sides to a coin. Two to tango...

Oh...and please do put some armored suit or sumtin'...I feel you're gonna need it...

Indeed, isn't the path this thread is taking most intriguing?

I'm currently searching for my suit of armour, whilst I reply to the 3 PM's I just received from American support, whilst they shudder from this public thread.. It's quite a reflection on the confidence Americans have to come out and say their piece, aye?

LOL.You start yet another America bashing thread and are now going to criticize Americans for defending their country? I don't even know why I bother opening your threads because really they ALL say the samething. America is badddddddddddddd mmkay. Seriously,get over yourself.Don't be mad at us Americans because YOUR country sucks.As someone else pointed out our government isn't the only one that's pulled this BS. Perhaps you NON Americans need to go revist the history you are all so quick to claim WE don't know.

I'd just like to call you out on your blatant lie. This is the only thread I have produced in regards to America. I just checked my history also. Do you have some sort of Xray vision that I do not?

Aha. Your rant is most amusing. Please continue, I have time for a good arguement today.

Check it again. Perhaps I used the wrong term,saying "thread". I should have said "posts" aha. Don't even sit there and deny that you don't criticize the US ALL the time. You do.Its nearly 6 am here and I can't be bothered to go find them.

Originally posted by dutchmilpo
Americans, by default, apparently Identify with the abstract "America" and thusly react like bitten, when someone critiques the "abstract" America. Feeling it as a personal attack.

Europeans, on another hand, have an amazing lack of "patriottism" (save some nutters with a penchance for brown shirts) in the sense that, when someone calls their country (UK in this case) corrupt, or whatever, they shrug and go : "yup, true dat". Assuming immediately that the critiques were aimed at their Government, nót them personally. Contrary to Americans.

It's something that a poster from another continent (island..

) should keep in mind. The sheer amount of patriottism demonstrated by the flag-waving and shouting "America the greatest" is something that triggers an inate dread in Europeans, a result of WW2. Something American posters should keep in mind too. For many Europeans "Patriottism=Nationalism" and it has thrown Europe in more wars than they care to remember, allthewhile America has been pretty stable since it's inception. It leads to a vastly different discours

Have to say... the best few paragraphs I've read on ATS so far.

reply to post by dutchmilpo


That was a suburb post, if you ever find the time, I'd appreciate you elaborating that into a thread

reply to post by Ellie Sagan


Well, if you ever got beyond reading one page of an entire thread, you might know the answers to your questions

I was BORED and wanted to defend Assange and make use of some pictures I had laying about, and made all you lap dogs invest all this time into this debate

reply to post by Sinny


First of all, thank you for your reply.

I doubt you really care, but I am NOT a patriot, and I do NOT support all the crap that the U.S. government is responsible for. My point was that you seem to lump us all together and you do it in an insulting way. I can't even believe how bitter and insulting you sound. I do understand you wanting to defend Assange.

Also, I think I could get a good feel for a thread by reading one page. If it's not all stated clearly in the opening post what the thread starter meant to convey then there is something wrong with it. I got the Assange part, but it seemed like you just wanted to use the issue to give you a forum to bash the U.S. as a whole, not just the government. The fact that you called me (and others) a lapdog, shows that you delight in insulting people. You have no idea who I am. You, however, seem to equate biting insults and snotty attitude with cleverness and intelligence. I can see that much in your posts.

reply to post by Ellie Sagan


Well, it gets tiresome answering the same questions over and over... and over.

reply to post by NavyDoc

So were the Kennedys so was Ford. Meh, everyone was investing in Germany before the war because it was an up and coming economy, so such accusations of malfeasance are laughable at best. Still does neither establishes the premise that the US government supported the Nazis nor does it establish the premise than any of those business people supported their underlying philosophies.

Germany was dead poor before the war.

Germany had a shattered economy. 6 million German's were out of work. You got to keep in mind Germany had lost the first world war, and the spoils went to the allies not Germany and as a result the nation was ruined.

That devastated German economy was, unsurprisingly attractive to wealthy industrialists such as the Bushes, because German labour was soooooooo cheap.

Wealthy industrialists support what ever makes a profit - as a general rule. You might be able to think of a few exceptions though. Every general rule has the odd exception after all. But none of the afore named families in your post would be one of those exception.