A new country in North America? What do Canadians and Americans make of this?

Originally posted by ExNihilo
that argument is retarded

The aboriginal population of Quebec - most notably the Cree in the northern part of the province - have legal rights and title to the lands they occupy, which is a little more than half of the entire province of Quebec. Do you think Quebec would give them as much or more benefit then the federal government has been? Therefore it is common belief that if Quebec would separate, the aboriginals would legally transfer ownership of their lands back to the country of Canada, effectively cutting the newfound country of Quebec in half.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by ExNihilo
It amazes me how Canadians forget that we are 8 millions out of a population of 32 millions.

And this is a prime example of why the majority of Ontarians I discuss Quebec sovereignty with are fed up about the issue: the separatists think they're so darn special. "We are 8 million people."

Yes, you are, but you are also part of the 32 million that are Canadian, first and foremost. Especially considering all that Canada has done for Quebec for decades. The Canadian government - specifically the Liberals - have bent over backward and given Quebec absolutely anything it wanted. Distinct society recognition, bilingualism laws, rights to the natural resources of Ontario while instilling laws protecting their own resources from harvest, and so much more.

But it's never enough. After taking all of the ass-kissing, all of the handouts, and a big chunk of the jobs and natural resources out of Ontario, they always remind us at how unfairly their distinct society is treated in Canada.

In the original 1995 sovereignty movement, they wanted to separate from the country while continuing to use Canadian currency, Canadian passports, and the Canadian military within their own borders for their own purposes. Not to mention directly propping up their economy by remaining tied into the Canadian banking system. Does this sound like a strong and proud nation ready to separate from Canada?

The separatists in Quebec are pompous, ignorant, greedy and selfish individuals who care more about their own warped sense of regional identity than being a part of the country that has always tried to make them happy.

Which is why I honestly think Canada would be better off without them.

Please Quebec, separate.

reply to post by ArchAngel_X


Sure let's give all the land back to the natives and the 32 million of us go back to their respective country of origin. Don't try to make Québec look like the only colonialist, Canada has it's share of rape,murder,theft and complete disregard of the natives. Just because Québec is the origin of Canada does not mean the rest of Canada have their hands clean.

If Quebec does gain countryhood, this could become a stepping stone for other Canadian areas or even some States in America to do the same. This is the last we need right now .......

reply to post by The Cusp


I got to so upset reading "I think Poutine is disgusting" I had to drink two mugs of chamomile tea and take to my bed until my blood pressure leveled out.

How one can not appreciate the fine art of greasy fries, gravy and the all mighty cheese curd I may never understand!

Agh! These punk kids and their rock music and drugs and disestablishmentarianism!!!!!!!!!(how many of these do I have to add for a second line?)!!!!!!!(ok, there we go...and just a couple more for good measure)!!!

reply to post by Miri08


Absolutey ! Nothing better to eat after slamming down numerous Labatt's or Molsons !

I've been to Canada many times, from nearly edge to edge (have not hung with the Newfies yet). I know a lot, at least from an American perspective, but really know nothing of what the effects would be for Canadians or Quebecois at large. For the perspective I do have, I am not sure that'd be bad, so long as the folks in PEI and Nova Scotia had open passage for land commerce, etc. Canada would still have the all important strategic maritime Atlantic port in Halifax. The commonalities over the past hundred plus years should also guarantee them friendly relations I'd hope.

As for English-speaking CA joining us here down south, they'd be TOTAL idiots to do that or want that. If we merged and the U.S. tossed out entirely its political methodologies an legal structure in favor of the Canadian model, I'd be 150% for that. I've spent enough time in Canada over many years to know clearly which is best in my view -- Canada by a longshot. Better economic opportunity and rules that keep it that way. Much more fair and accessible legal system to redress grievances. No fear of total economic destruction should you be unlucky enough to be a victim of a crime, illness or accident that requires life-saving medical care. An end to empirism and foreign adventurism. Etc., etc.

For those of you children who'll say, "Well move to Canada then." I would if I could.

Exactly how independent can Quebec be without the rest of Canada? How would their trade suffer? Can they be independent when they can't take care of their own people? I know independence seems like a great idea to them, and having the Harper gov't in power certainly helps get the young voters out, but, I wonder if they consider/ask what the ramifications of this are?

reply to post by ExNihilo


Quite Correct.....The actions of our Great Great Great Grandfathers(if those such mentioned were present in North America at the Time and enough "Greats" were added) were not quite honest regarding the Natives.....Hands are not clean on either side.......British as well as French both abused and used them.

One must ask of course....Are you suggesting that since they were abused and used over 100 years ago that the same treatment be given them now again ? That a Free and Self Governing Quebec be given it's own Soverignity with a simple 50 % plus one vote, yet the Natives wishes be discarded....even if they vote 90% in favour of staying in Canada ?

Originally posted by Falenor
reply to post by ExNihilo

 

Quite Correct.....The actions of our Great Great Great Grandfathers(if those such mentioned were present in North America at the Time and enough "Greats" were added) were not quite honest regarding the Natives.....Hands are not clean on either side.......British as well as French both abused and used them.

One must ask of course....Are you suggesting that since they were abused and used over 100 years ago that the same treatment be given them now again ? That a Free and Self Governing Quebec be given it's own Soverignity with a simple 50 % plus one vote, yet the Natives wishes be discarded....even if they vote 90% in favour of staying in Canada ?

What are you saying? The natives hate Canada as much as they hate Québec and even more (with reason). You guys make it sound like the natives like Canada when all they are saying from cornwall to maniwaki is that they hope Canada burns to the ground and the white man dies with it.

i rest my case about the natives or ill start to say stuff politically incorrect about them and their fantastic ways of integrating society 400 years after colonization started. Our great great great ... grand fathers did the arm as you say it, not us. And sadly for them occidental society started in America and prevailed.

Should 10 000 Cree decide for the sake of 8 million Quebecers? absolutely not.

Now let's talk about the natives and Métis of Alberta shall we?

reply to post by ExNihilo

In 1995 the Cree voted by an overwhelming majority to remain Canadian. There are also significant pockets of Anglo Canadians within Quebec.

Also, polling has found that support for Qubec independence has dropped to the low 30% range. This was even mentioned in the article that the OP posted.

good luck with that QC, divide and conquer is the game and you fell for it all

Quebec can't separate, they made a deal long ago with English Canada, and received a large chunk of land in exchange for joining the union. If they separate, English Canada would consider that a violation of the original agreement, and demand back all that land they granted them. In which case, the separating Quebec would be just a tiny piece of land, much smaller than it is today, with borders much reduced, and it couldn't survive as a nation. All the natural resources are in the lands granted to them by the English in the original deal, and their own little piece is worthless.

If they try to separate AND keep all the land they received in the original deal, it would lead to war. And Quebec would lose. So, they can't get the land that they now control as part of Quebec, if they separate, and can't separate without all that extra land, so they are stuck with Canada, like it or not. Canada would let them leave anytime they want, with the portion of the land they entered into the Federation with, but not with the "gift" they recieved for joining up. Most Quebecois don't know the full story, since their politicians love to stir them up, every now and then, but those that know, already understand that actual separation is impossible.

Originally posted by ExNihilo

this thread is not about arguing if Québec should separate or not but what would the implications be if it did?

Implications? OK.

1) The immediate death of the Quebec economy.

Upon exiting Canada, Quebec exits every trade pact negotiated by the federal government. Might take a few years to get established with the WTO, after the UN recognition of course. In the mean time, Quebec has no economic protection, no bargaining strength, no international credit, and no means of extracting debt money from creditors.

Furthermore, Quebec will lose the billions invested in Quebec based R&D, industry loans, credit guarantees - all of the things that have supported the growth of the Quebec economy since the end of the 2nd world war.

Foreign investment will be the key to survival - but with a population of only 8 million, there's not much of a point in training the mandatory french speaking staff. Much easier to just export goods to Quebec - and much more profitable, because they can't complain to the WTO about price gouging, unfair trade practices (no trade pacts), and so on. Look forward to $5.00/liter gas, for example - and you *know* they'll charge it if they can even slightly get away with it.

And then of course there's the fact that you're currently running a 20 billion dollar trade deficit and have a public debt in excess of $200 billion - most of which is to the Government of Canada. Plus your share of the Canadian National Debt, which will surely be demanded


2) The immediate isolation of Quebec from the rest of the world.

The Canadian government is currently responsible for the operation and control of Quebec's international borders and points of entry (airports, port facilities). Until Quebec can rectify that situation with the TSA, DHS, and a bunch of other US agencies, look forward to at least a year of the US border being sealed and heavily patrolled. Likewise, with no oversight from Transport Canada, no international flights from Quebec will be possible until infrastructure, treaties and other international agreements are in place.

Air Canada will see no more subsidy money for flights inside Quebec, so look forward to paying whatever the hell they want you to pay to get around. Likewise Via.

There is no reason to assume that the borders with the rest of Canada will remain as open as they are today. You can expect that there will be a lot of public pressure from the rest of Canada to adopt a system similar to the one currently in operation with the USA. Minus the trade agreements, at least for the first few years. After all, with no security in place at the various ports, who can be sure that the terrorists aren't going to storm in to North America via Quebec?

3) Loss of protection

The Canadian military will be gone completely overnight. Likewise the RCMP and CSIS. Police funding will dry up with the transfer payments. And remember - no one's opening the borders until you've got your policing under control.

4) Loss of territory.

This is a big one, and the one that no one in Quebec really wants to face up to. Canada has no obligation to release the Province of Quebec as it stands to a new, independent Quebec. the most likeley scenerio is that Quebec will be able to negotiate for a package slightly larger than what was Quebec's at Confederation - minus the St Lawrence Seaway (crown possession, sorry.). Native land claims will need to be adressed within that smaller package of land as well. With no military to stop the Canadian Government, look forward to pretty much everything north of Chibougamau being occupied and nationalized, followed by an open invitation to settle things at the Hague, once your membership in the ICJ has been confirmed, of course.


5) The extinction of Quebec's distinct culture inside of a generation.

Why?

Currently the industries and agencies that exist solely to promote Quebec culture in and out of Quebec are funded directly or indirectly by the Canadian government. With Quebec out of Canada, that funding will vanish - and a population of 8 million simply is not enough to warrant special attention from any outside investor. Look forward to TV dominated by dubbed US sitcoms (all your stations will be able to afford), the death of your film industry, and the further death of Quebec music. Canadians will no longer feel the need to study French in schools, and will turn their attention to more relevant global languages - Chinese and Spanish, more than likely. With a lack of french speaking trade partners, Quebec schools will be forced to put more emphasis on learning English to compete - or did you think the Americans were going to learn French all of a sudden? Say goodbye to Federal museum funding, and everything else that props up Quebec culture in and out of Quebec.


Those are the immediate implications that I can think of, off the top of my head.

Separation is a suicide worthy of a Darwin Award.

reply to post by ExNihilo


The fact of the matter is that the northern portion of quebec is native land and they have said they will not leave Canada. In fact they have said that they will shoot ant quebec forces and request international help if they are tried to be forced to leave Canada. Now here is what I think we should do with the worthless quebec, lets kick them out with their share of the national debt and keep the upper 2/3 as a new native prov.

The "country" of quebec takes more then it gives to Canada anyway. And then we can finally turn off the power from Newfoundland that quebec is getting for almost free. Make no mistake the states does not want anything to do with that craphole of quebec.

Finally we can end get rid of the French

reply to post by GreatOwl


I wish quebec wouldve left sooner when Ontario was paying out the ass for all the welfare provinces, alberta included. Canada without quebec, an extra 8 to 10 billion a year budget surplus. Enjoy $500 a month car insurance, private healthcare and $25000 a yr university tuition. Also a new currency and a border check with visa travel requirements.

One less sucker on the tits that are Alberta and Ontario. Ontario running on dry since 08 as it is.

reply to post by vox2442


Very good reply , thank you.

Yes, Quebec becomes the Socialist Republic of New France in secret agreement with the newly elected Socialist President of France, united becoming the French Empire. They then get support from the french army and further support for national security / economy / etc. under the new "French Empire"

Ontario also follow suites and becomes its own country, with the NDP and Socialist Party of Ontario declaring a coup on the illegetimate Harper government who won election through voter fraud. Harper is arrested, Ontario socialists and NDP seizes authority over the military and economy under the new Social Democracy of Ontario.

Western Canada and BC also form a new nation, it will be called Canasia. This is because they will have a secret agreement with China to sell oil and allow massive amounts of chinese immigrants to live in the vast amount of land in western Canada. It will be a communist nation, in tribute to the CCP and the labors of the farming industry in western Canada,

Nunavet, NWT, and the Yukon will become the Republic of Anishinaabe , because it's overwhemingly native canadians. They will however be the richest, because they have gold mines, and other resources. Politics will resemble aboriginal traditions.

Quebec aint going anywhere. Canada needs Quebec and Quebec needs Canada. Using its influence the nation of Canada would make trading relationships strained and hard to come by for Quebec. A separated Quebec would not have enough political power or influence to make it alone. Canada needs Quebec for its resources and cash.

The only real difference between someone from Quebec and someone from another province is the language and even then there are tons of french speaking people in other provinces. In this country we are all Canadians and should work together to better the nation for everyone, doing otherwise will only provide negative results for all parties.

I dont know where the bit about becoming American comes into play in the OP's post. Canada is not for sale despite what our elected officials tend to think from time to time.

Originally posted by RobertF
One step closer to connecting the continental US to Alaska...

Um...isn't the state of Washington significantly closer to Alaska? For that matter, isn't Iowa closer to Alaska than Quebec? Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno.,,but one of us is a geographically-handicapped American.