Can India liberate Tibet if it wanted to?

Stealth and thrust vectoring are two must-have features in all aircraft being designed in the 21st century. If is not clear that how much progress Chinese designers have made in these areas, and Chinese aircraft industry may have to take Western/Israeli/Russian helps to make the J-XX truly fouth-generation (or fifth-generation using the Russian standards). Once introduced, the J-12's immediate rival will be U.S. F/A-22, JSF and India's MCA (Medium Combat Aircraft).



www.sinodefence.com...

Its from your best site!

Out,
Russian

yeah, it only says not much is known about it. so?

delete

[edit on 29-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

here is a photo of our latest trainer. of course, all the indians will say it is a copy of this and that while all they can do is buy british trainers for their "flying coffin". lolo

@russian,

If you want to get personal, I am all for it. But, I respect you so don't want to engage in that. Hope you can get rid of thta "little Chinese" line. That's uncalled for if only because you don't know much about PLA at all.

www.network54.com...

I am not getting personal and I will not change anything. Also I know enough about your military to say anything. You need Russia help until you are cought up with the tech. It is nothing bad but you should not try say you have big balls when you dont. Dont try to say you people are at the same tech level as Russia or USA. I started to go against you cause you were bashing the Indians and I respect both countries thats why I equalized the field. If the indians will try to start something I can say something too. I already showed them that there LCA is nothing for rightnow.

Out,
Russian

Ok, Russian. I never said that we are at parity with US or Russia or France yet. Never! I have always said that we lag behind in many, many areas. No sweat, man. I think you are actually quite neutral most of the time. Any how, good readings from you most of the time. Ciao

Originally posted by Russian
Also I know enough about your military to say anything.

Though u are big name in the forums, but, to take care of ur words when u were being angry. Mostly, people speak aloud means they know not enough.
Can Mr. Putin say he knows PLA good enough? Who knows?!

Hawkssss, see, from your post "

Originally posted by Hawkssss.
Great Jane's Article on China's Navy. (A must read)

even Jane's get info/secret from China internet/forum. It's something about let-me-tell-you-what-we-have-and-show-you-the-eyeball-catching-evidence-we-have-to-stop-you-laughing-me-we-don't-have.



[edit on 30-10-2004 by lmairforce]

^^Whats going on here?Why is everybody taking potshots at each other. which nation do you represent "iamairforce"?

And you photo shop experts look at the chinese trainer link that hawksss posted. Theres somethign very weird about that photo.
Maybe the guys over at the UFO forum should check it for authenticity!!

To hawksss, you think that the L-15 jet trainer (if authenticated) is better or equal to the british hawk we've bought?

yeah, China is pretty secretive about our defense projects. For example, when Washington Post broke the story that China had just launched a new SSK (yuan class), the west and the rest of world had known absolutely nothing about it just a few months ago.

Delete

[edit on 30-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

@Daedalus3

I don't know enough about both to give you comment as to which is better. But you see the difference: we made our own while you only buy. That's not good for an aspiring super power because you are very dependent on others for your military gears. Plus, the gap between China and India is widening, not narrowing everytime you buy something and we make sth. You are killing your own indigenous military complex, which was not much to start with. I hope you understand the difference.

In the past 2 years, china came out with a sleu of new toys such as:

1) 4 052 Aegis-equivalent DDGs (one generation ahead of the Dehli DDGs)
2) 2 054 stealth frigates (while india bought 3 stealth frigates from Russia)
3) J10, FC-1, L15 (while india's LCA languished and only buying from Russians, French, British, etc)
4) Yuan, Song SSKs, 093 and 094 SSNs (india doesn't make subs at all)
5) T99 tanks (india's Arjun is all but a failure)
......

Do you see the pattern? In 5 years when China's next generation toys come out, you will be no where near because you don't have an indigenous military industry.

This is pretty short-sighted for an aspiring super power, like india?

Please, my indian friend, put aside your patritism and think about it. Within a decade, China will most likely achieve parity with the Russians and the Europeans in almost all areas and only lag the Americans. Where do you think India will stand?

China through a Bangladeshi/indian's eyes

By Habibul Haque Khondker in Asia Times 21/10-04


BEIJING - "To get rich is glorious." The Chinese people at all levels have heeded this famous slogan of reformist leader Deng Xiaoping. Even the Beijing Airport's tourist information center, an official looking set-up, quoted me an outrageous taxi fare (500 yuan or about US$60) to go to a hotel. Finally, after managing to get a cab outside and then paying him more than usual, thanks to his "broken" fare-meter, we had a taste of market competition in China. The experience of being swindled and cheated is not uncommon in Beijing - or any big city for that matter - yet there is no evidence of a social collapse at a time of break-neck economic growth, moving at a rate of 9.2%.

The roads and highways are bustling with traffic - not bicycles but automobiles. With economic prosperity came more automobiles and traffic congestion. Compared to my 1996 visit to Beijing, there were fewer bicycles on the road, yet there was a separate lane for bikes and other muscle-powered vehicles. As we were stuck in traffic, I saw a motorist driving a smart European car who was negotiating with traffic police for the use of the bike lane. I am sure he was in a hurry and rich. The police officer did not budge. The driver had to abandon his plan. This pedestrian incident symbolized what is going on in today's China. The socialist government in creating a market economy has created a bourgeoisie, but it is not completely beholden to the new class and the government still cares for the working class and the poor, whose rank are swelling due to rising unemployment.

At the international sociology meeting I attended in Beijing, organized by the International Institute of Sociology, many of the papers by the local sociologists dealt with issues of unemployment, the cutback of social welfare programs in the villages, regional disparity and so on. The intellectuals are alive to the problems - the price of progress - and are ready to discuss them openly in Mandarin with instantaneous English translation. The Russian participant painted the bleakest of pictures of Russian society after the end of socialism. Such images of blight and social collapse are not evident in reformist China unless you are a puritan who is offended by the sights of so-called streetwalkers in the hotel districts and karaoke joints in some back lanes. But the fact that you can walk the streets of Beijing in the late hours without being mugged is a legacy of the socialist order and proof that China remains an orderly society and a well-governed polity. The rise of the market economy has not become a runaway monster crushing everything in its path.

The continuity in China has a civilizational dimension. A visitor to the Forbidden City will first notice the portrait of Mao Zedong adorning its main entrance, as if a tribute to the "last emperor". I asked Lili, my interpreter turned friend back in 1996, "how about replacing that portrait [with] Deng Xiaoping's?" She was praising the leadership qualities of Deng and his contributions to modern China. It was at that opportune point I fielded my question. Lili replied almost instinctively, "No, that place is for Mao." I had by then a compromise plan. "How about putting Deng's portrait next to Mao's?" I asked. "Deng is a great leader but that place is for Mao," was Lili's reply. We did not continue that discussion on that frosty evening in 1996.

CCTV channel 5, which is an English-language channel, was showing a place of tourist interest, an idyllic hamlet with fountain and rural bliss. Domestic tourism is big in China. The tourist promotion story ended with a side story that it was in that village in Jiangxi province where Mao started his long march in 1934. A hut where Mao spent some nights has been converted into a modest museum, which tourists are urged to visit. In the Ming Tombs, a tourist attraction on the way to and from the Great Wall, there is a modest exhibit of a small pavilion where Mao once read a newspaper. The champions of capitalism have not forgotten the leaders of socialism. The fact that the Great Wall was built by successive generations of monarchs over a period of nearly 2,000 years is further proof of that continuity. It was started in the Qin dynasty (221 BC) and ended during the Ming dynasty in the 17th century.

James Jesudason, a sociologist from the Colorado School of Mines, pointed out that the real reason for the Great Wall was not security but state power. The emperors of various dynasties were showing off their prowess by building this mammoth structure. His hypothesis had a basis in the mountainous terrain on which part of the wall was built. We had to take the cable car to reach the wall. "The mountain was deterrence enough, why build a wall on top?" asked Jesudason. I agreed. However, there could be more to adding glory and symbolic power. It was, I thought, Keynesian before Keynes. Chinese rulers had to solve the problem of unemployment. Too many young, able-bodied men hanging around in the cities were not being a good idea. So if you could send them to build a public works project in a remote area where they would be doing a patriotic duty, a kind of "food for work" project, everyone would be happy. The unemployed men would have food to eat and meaningful work to keep them busy, and the royalty would be safe in the city.

Employment creation remains the main focus of the present day rulers of China as well. Unlike the subway system in Singapore, Beijing's subway is filled with working women. Some selling tickets, others standing at the gate checking tickets and answering questions (in Mandarin). Giovanni Arrighi, a renowned historical sociologist made similar points in his keynote address at the sociology meeting. The main difference between the East (Japan and China) and the West (Europe and later the United States) was that there was an "industrial revolution" in the West; while in the East there was an "industrious revolution". Here Arrighi was quoting Japanese economic historian Kaoru Sugihara. The key to Asian success from the late 19th century starting in Japan and later in China was the ability to harness labor power. An industrious and self-motivated labor force cut the cost of supervision and fueled economic growth. The worker-manager ratio in China stood at 15 managers per 5,000 workers whereas in the US, management was not only top heavy but also there was often an army of mid-management cadres that helped balloon production costs.

Our taxi driver on the way to the Great Wall was very knowledgeable and my colleagues engaged him in a lively conversation. Ai Yun, a Marxist at heart, was doing the translation. James asked how things during the communist days compared to the present. Although Ai Yun was filtering some of the translations, it came out that things were not all that great. But our translator was excited to find out that in those good old days people did not even have to lock their doors. "Maybe they did not have any valuable thing that needed protection," I quipped. Now theft has increased because people have more things of interest to thieves. Socialist frugality is deterrence for pilfery.

The comparison between China and India often came up in discussions and small talk over breakfasts at the hotel. India has democracy; China has accountability and so on. One thing struck me. India is nationalistic; China is patriotic. Indian nationalism is often manifested in its anti-foreign postures. The root of nationalism lies in anti-foreignness. China believes in opening its door to foreign capital and technology (unless it is labor displacing). Chinese are more disciplined. Pragmatism defines China. One does not have to go to China to see that. A visit to the Chinese Embassy and Indian High Commission is enough. I have been a resident of Singapore for the past 18 years, with permanent resident status in Singapore and a respectable job at the National University of Singapore. I blow my own trumpet for a reason. The Indian High Commission could not give me a visa to go to New Delhi to meet my friends without a clearance from the Indian High Commission in Dhaka. Actually, I have been away from Bangladesh for the past 25 years so the Indian High Commission must have extraordinary intelligence gathering capabilities to keep track of my activities in Canada, the US and Singapore. Incidentally, I have no problem getting visas to go to the United States or Canada.

Yes, in Singapore I was the president of the Bangla Language and Literary Society, which has Bangladeshis, Indians, and Singaporeans as members. Okay, that probably was the reason for the lengthy procedure of my visa. I reasoned with the officer: what about my daughter who was born in Singapore and has seen Bangladesh only as an occasional visitor. "Does Indian High Commission in Dhaka have a file on my daughter as well?" I got no answer to that question.

The consular section in the Chinese Embassy was exactly the opposite. They did not want to get clearance from their Dhaka office. Their questions were whether I needed it urgently or after four days, not four weeks, which was the normal processing time. For an urgent visa, I needed to pay an extra $S35 (US$21). The fees are different for different speeds. With an extra US$50 I could get my visa the same day. I am sure many business people would appreciate this speedy process. No wonder, China attracted foreign investment of US$52.7 billion in 2002 compared to India's US$3.5 billion.

China provides a good example of good governance. Good governance is good, old-fashioned common sense. There must be intrigues in high places in China. The handing over of the top military position to Hu Jintao (already president and party chief) is a recent case in point. But a collective responsibility toward the country helps tide over such difficulties. The root of all this is patriotism. India's strong point is nationalism, China's patriotism. India's nationalism helps keep tourists as well as foreign investments away.

A colleague of mine and I were giving a briefing at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences to a group of prospective graduate students and researchers. At one point, one of them asked if we had any Chinese post-doctoral researchers. I answered matter of factly, "We have a post-doctoral fellow from China." Honestly, I did not know where our post-doctoral fellow was from. My colleague corrected me by saying Dr Chan was from Taiwan. No sooner had he finished his statement than, a Chinese student retorted: "But Taiwan is China." It came out almost instinctively from my mouth, "That's what I said." A potential diplomatic crisis was thus overcome. Yet the sense of patriotism on the part of the Chinese students was unmistakable. You have to love your country first, if you want to improve its socio-economic conditions. This is the lesson we can all learn from China.

Habibul Haque Khondker is an associate professor of sociology at the National University of Singapore.

www.atimes.com...

Asia Times - Asia's most trusted news source


[edit on 30-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

But if it does India will fuk up China. India's millitary is allot more modernized, and will probablly have the suport of the west starting with U.K., if there is good reason for the war.

^^Aha! well, well..
and what part of this blessed world may you be from?!!

wow, I see pro-india's side have degraded themselves to the using of foul language. Huh, India will "Fuk" up China. Wow, that is like the biggest statement of ignorance I have ever EVER heard on ATS.

May I ask where did you EVER get the idea of the west supporting India? You do know China is a lot more important to USA than India right? All the trade, the the second biggest buyer of US bonds- you sell all those then hey you got a economic crisis or at least some damage to the US economy.
What business does India do with the west or USA except for umm your "IT sweatshop" products?

If I get stereotypical about Indians just from the words coming out of you then I guess all your people can be described as lowlifes, insulting, no manners huh?

[edit on 30-10-2004 by COWlan]

well, they never really had any substantive argument, not to mention none of them really know anything about military stuff. Well, let them dream in their wet dreams while we are pulling further ahead of them .lol

Originally posted by Hawkssss
J-13 or J-XX is supposed to be on par with F-22

You what?!?!?!?

Please, my indian friend, put aside your patritism and think about it. Within a decade, China will most likely achieve parity with the Russians and the Europeans in almost all areas and only lag the Americans. Where do you think India will stand?

Acheiving parity with the Russians ain't that much to brag about. They're an enonomic basket case that is rapidly going backwards in terms of democratic reforms. They can't solve Chechnya and their solution to economic problems is to lock up Khordokiovsky. Soon Brazil will acheive parity with the Russians...

Why don't you just waltz over to the aircraft projects forum and see how technically "lacking" we indians are aye?!!

yeah, why don't you explain it to us what you have done sine you are such an expert ??? Like what LCA, which has all but failed over 10 years. And the Pak-Fa is a russian project. MCA is still on the drawing board. So what have you made so far and how and where there is any indication of your technical prowess?

@Howrunner,

Brasil is doing rather well in civil aviation with Braer (spelling) selling many small to medium-sized jets. But, in terms of military stuff, you are no where near where russia is. Can you explain how and what Brasil will and has surpassed russia in term os military industry???.

[edit on 31-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

[edit on 31-10-2004 by Hawkssss]