Can India liberate Tibet if it wanted to?

@ Daedalus3


[edit on 28-10-2004 by aryaputhra]

Originally posted by aryaputhra

@ Daedalus3


[edit on 28-10-2004 by aryaputhra]

Are u laughing 'at' me or 'with' me?!!

How the thread is going....

1 Can India Invade Tibet?
2 China more medals
3 India will be supported by unknown countries

Please stay on topic and dont start Olymipics debates here. Also you people have no clue who would help India or China. If India would invade Tibet then NOBODY would help India. On the otherside Pakistan would invade India with China. Russia would try stop the war as it would not be in their interset to have an unstable Asia.

Most of you have no points on what you are saying. Please stay on topic and dont back down from what you started.

Out,
Russian

Originally posted by diunei
For you Indian forumers, allow me to quote an English-language expression for you. "Those who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones." In other words, before accusing Hawk of being arrogant, why don't you look at your behaviour?

-->Indian equipment "superiority." Even Chinese J-7s are better than LCA and MCA. Do you know why? Because they LCA and MCA are literally paper tigers, whereas J-7s EXIST FOR REAL! While India has spent nearly 30 years developping LCA, during that time China has developped, built AND deployed Su-27, J-10 and FC-1. The bad part: LCA is equal to FC-1. The worst part: LCA is only scheduled to be deployed in 2010. Quite simply, India imports virtually all of its aircraft while China builds many of them. As for armour, India squandered 20+ years "developping" the Arjun, only to scrap the programme (each Arjun apparently costs US$5 million, which is more than the Leclerc, LOL!) and import T-90s from Russia.

You seem to be behaving, like a cataracted person. I would first advise you stick that proverb on your wall before ever posting again.

By the way the FC-1 is an utter load of scrap. It is essentially an upgraded Mig-21.

China cant make anything that flies without COPYING.
Read this ATS thread before you ever post again :

All chinese aircrafts are pathetic copies

The LCA is highly more advanced.

Here's some food for the brain you need to grow :

LCA is the world's smallest, light weight, multi-role supersonic combat aircraft. It has been designed to meet the requirements of Indian Air Force as its frontline multi-mission single-seat tactical aircraft.

LCA has a double delta wing configuration with no tailplanes or foreplanes and features a single vertical fin. The LCA is constructed of aluminium-lithium alloys, carbon-fibre composites, and titanium. It's design has been configured to match the demands of modern combat scenario such as speed, acceleration, maneuverability and agility. Other features of the design include Short takeoff and landing, excellent flight performance, safety, damage-tolerant design, reliability and maintainability.

According to current estimates, the LCA will cost about $17-$20 million and efforts are being made to bring down the cost to $15 million. At this price the LCA has considerable bang for buck value. In comparison, a Su-30 fetches $35 million per piece for Russia, while France's Rafale cost $70+ million.


It integrates modern design concepts and the state-of-art technologies such as relaxed static stability, flyby-wire Flight Control System, Advanced Digital Cockpit, Multi-Mode Radar, Integrated Digital Avionics System and a Flat Rated Engine.

Around 70% of the jet is to be made in India itself. The rest will have to be imported for sometime. No mistake must be made with regards to LCA's modernity and design. It is truly advanced and has all the necessary equipment and more.

A naval carrier based version of LCA is also being developed. This version will feature a strengthened undercarriage and sturucture, additional leading edge control surfaces (in the area where the wing joins the fuselage) and lowered nose for better visibility. News reports suggest that US help has been sought for the LCA Navy. The 8th and 9th LCA prototypes built will be Naval version.

Air Frame
Among the most significant breakthrough is the use of advance carbon composites for more than 40% of the LCA air frame, including wings, fin and fuselage. Apart from making it much lighter, there are less joints or rivets making the aeroplane more reliable. Fatigue strength studies on computer models optimise performance. National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) has played a lead role. Materials include Aluminium - Lithium alloys , Titanium alloy and Carbon compositites. Composities for wing (skin , spars and ribs ) fuselage (doors and skins), elevons, fin, rudder, airbrakes and landing gear doors.

The skin of the LCA measures 3 mm at its thickest with the average thickness varying between 2.4 to 2.7 mm. BAe was consulted. The fin for the LCA is a monolithic honeycomb piece. No other manufacturer is known to have made fins out of a single piece. The cost of manufacture reduces by 80 per cent from Rs 2.5 million in this process. This is contrary to a subtractive or deductive method normally adopted in advanced countries, when the shaft is carved out of a block of titanium alloy by a computerized numerically controlled machine. A 'nose' for the rudder is added by 'squeeze' riveting.

A striking feature of the LCA is its small size. It is much smaller than even the JAS-39, which a ~1m longer. An effort was made to reduce the number of individual composite parts to the minimum and hence keep the plane light.


The use of composites results in a 40 per cent reduction in the total number of parts (if the LCA were built using a metallic frame): For instance, 3,000 parts in a metallic design would come down to 1,800 parts in a composite design. The number of fasteners has been reduced to half in the composite structure from 10,000 in the metallic frame. The composite design helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. Though the weight comes down by 21 per cent, the most interesting prediction is the time it will take to assemble the LCA -- the airframe that takes 11 months to build can be done in seven months using composites.

When lightning strikes the LCA, four metal longerons stretching from end to end, afford protection. In addition, all the panels are provided with copper mesh. One out of five is 'bonding' bolt with gaskets to handle Electr-Magnetic Interference. Aluminum foils cover bolt heads while the fuel tank is taken care of with isolation and grounding.

LCA is expected to be highly maneuverable by virtue of its double delta wing and relaxed static unstability of its Fly-By-Wire system.

Flight Control and Software and Other Avionics
The LCA uses advanced digital fly-by-wire technology which essentially employs computers to optimise the aircraft's performance. Foreign companies were consulted. Infact, LCA avionics were first flight tested on a US F-16XL.

Witout the automatic flight control, the LCA will not be flyable, due to the Delta wing's inherent instability. As more and more flights are conducted, the software is updated to allow the aircraft to do more complex maneuvours.

To combat the threat of obsolescence in the LCA Programme, a concerted effort has been made to introduce an Open-architecture Avionics system which permits hardware scalability and upgradability to state-of-the-art technology levels with reusability of the software.

LCA Avionics architecture is configured around a three bus system (MIL-STD-1553B) in a distributed environment. The heart of the system is a 32-bit Mission Computer (MC) which performs mission oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration / redundancy management and in-flight system self-tests. In compliance with MIL-STD-1521 and 2167A standards, Ada language has been adopted for mission computer software.Accurate navigation and guidance is realised through RLG based Inertial Navigation System (INS) with provision for INS / Global Positioning System (GPS) integration. Jam resistant radio commumication system with advanced Electronic Warfare (EW) environment. In the EW suite, Electromagnetic and Electroptic receivers and jammers provide the necessary "soft-kill" capability.


The digital FBW system of the LCA is built around a quadruplex redundant architecture to give it a fail op-fail op-fail safe capability. It employs a powerful Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) comprising four computing channels, each powered by an independent power supply and all housed in a single line replaceable unit (LRU). The system is designed to meet a probability of loss of control of better than 1x10-7 per flight hour. The DFCC channels are built around 32-bit microprocessors and use a safe subset of Ada language for the implementation of software. The DFCC receives signals from quad rate, acceleration sensors, pilot control stick, rudder pedal, triplex air data system, dual air flow angle sensors, etc. The DFCC channels excite and control the elevon, rudder and leading edge slat hydraulic actuators. The computer interfaces with pilot display elements like multifunction displays through MIL-STD-1553B avionics bus and RS 422 serial link.

For maintenance the aircraft has more than five hundred Line Replaceable Units (LRUs), each tested for performance and capability to meet the severe operational conditions to be encountered.


Mission Computer(MC): MC performs the central processing functions apart from performing as Bus Controller and is the central core of the Avionics system. The hardware architecture is based on a dual 80386 based computer with dual port RAM for interprocessor communication. There are three dual redundant communication channels meeting with MIL-STD-1553B data bus specifications. The hardware unit development was done by ASIEO, Bangalore and Software Design & Development by ADA.
Control & Coding Unit (CCU): In the normal mode, CCU provides real time I/O access which are essentially pilot's controls and power on controls for certain equipment. In the reversionary mode, when MC fails, CCU performs the central processing functions of MC. The CCU also generates voice warning signals. The main processor is Intel 80386 microprocessor. The hardware is developed by RCI, Hyderabad and software by ADA.
Display Processors (DP): DP is one of the mission critical software intensive LRUs of LCA. The DP drives two types of display surfaces viz. a monochrome Head Up display (HUD) and two colour multifunction displays (MFDs). The equipment is based on four Intel 80960 microprocessors. There are two DPs provided (one normal and one backup) in LCA. These units are developed by ADE, Bangalore
Mission Preparation & Data Retrieval Unit (MPRU): MPRU is a data entry and retrieval unit of LCA Avionics architecture. The unit performs mission preparation and data retrieval functions. In the preparation mode, it transfers mission data prepared on Data Preparation Cartridge (DPC) with the help of ground compliment, to various Avionics equipment. In the second function, the MPRU receives data from various equipment during the Operational Flight Program (OFP) and stores data on Resident Cartridge Card (RCC). This unit is developed by LRDE, Bangalore.
USMS Electronic Units: The following processor based digital Electronics Units (EU) are used for control and monitoring, data logging for fault diagnosis and maintenance.
Environment Control System Controller (ECSC)
Engine and Electrical Monitoring System Electronics Unit (EEMS-EU)
Digital Fuel Monitoring System Electronics Unit (DFM-EU)
Digital Hydraulics and Brake Management System Electronics Unit (DH-EU)
V/UHF Equipment: V/UHF equipment is a secure jam resisant airborne radio communication set which provides simplex two way voice and data communication in the VHF and UHF frequency bands. This unit is developed by HAL, Hyderabad.
Multi Function Keyboard (MFK): MFK is an interfce for pilot dialogue concerning certain selected equipment of Avionics system. It comprises LCD panel, alphanumeric keys, push buttions for power ON / OFF and LEDs indicating power ON / OFF status of certain Avionics equipment. This unit is developed by BEL, Bangalore.
Head Up Display (HUD): HUD is of conventional type with a Total Field of View (TFOV) of 24 degrees circular. A Change Coupled Device (CCD) based camera is mounted on the HUD for recording purposes. HUD dsplays various navigation and weapon related data. This unit is developed by CSIO, Chandigarh.
Colour Multi Function Displays (MFDs): LCD based colour MFDs hava a useful screen area of 125 mm x 125 mm. They have soft keys around their periphery for interaction with the systems. This display provides various aircraft system pages and navigation pages in addition to RADAR & FLIR display.

Digital fly-by-wire Flight Control System is another advanced feature of LCA. The unstable configuration of LCA demands a highly efficient Integrated Flight Control System (IFCS) to fly the aircraft. Control law resident in the flight control computer synthesises inputs from pilot's stick and rudder pedals with flight parameters from inertial and airdata measurements to generate commands to the actuators that move various control surfaces. The design of the control law is evaluated susing real-time flight simulator for acceptable flight handling qualities. The IFCS ensures stability, agility, manoeuvrability and carefree handling over the entire operating envelope of LCA. The Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) is the heart of IFCS, and uses a quadruplex redundant system to achieve high reliability and safety.

Independent Verification and Validation (IV&V) activity is an integral part of the Software development process. From requirement specification to final testing, IV&V ensures correctness, consistency, completeness and adherence to MIL standards of the software.

The flight control system along with all the associated software is tested and validated at the iron-bird rig.

The Cockpit

Its new-generation glass cockpit has the latest avionics systems for pilot comfort and efficiency. No tangle of dials and switches. Multi-function digital displays provide information of all vital parameters with the click of a button. Critical information is flashed on the head-up display. Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and NAL were major partner in these developments.


Two Multi Function Displays present required information to the pilot. Critical information required in close combat situations is flashed onto the Head Up Display. Hands on Throttle and Stick (HOTAS) concept ensures availability of every control needed during a critical combat situation, right under the fingers of the pilot. The Environmental Control System (ECS) is designed to give a high degree of comfort to the pilot and to provide adequate cooling to all onboard electronic systems. The compressed air for pressurisation of cockpit, radar and fuel tank is also supplied by ECS.

ADA has also tied up with India's National Institute of Design (NID), Ahemdabad to bring in the elements of ergonomics and modular design. The aim is to help build the aircraft in such a manner that it has more standardised units or dimensions allowing increased flexibility. The NID design team for this project will be lead by Dr S Ghosal who is the director of NID's Bangalore centre.

Weapons


The LCA has a choice of seven pylons three under each wing and one under its fuselage to carry a wide range of armoury. It is designed to be a precision launch platform with air-to-air missiles and air-to-ground weapons, including laser guided bombs. A total of 4000 kg can be carried. Plenty of work to be done. It is expected that the R-73 (AA-12 Archer) will be integrated into the PV-1.

LCA will be armed with a Gasha Gsh-23mm gun. The R-73 will be directed by a Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS) ensuring quick action. It is not clear what medium range AAMs it will carry - the IAF currently operates the Matra Super 530D, R-27RE1 and RVV-AE(R-77) BVR missiles. The choice depends a lot on the radar, unlike dogfight missiles which are usually heat seeking. For example, IAF has integrated both Magic-2 and R-60MK with the MiG-21. A range of weapons, from Russia, West or India will be made available.

A total of 7 hardpoints will be available: 3 on each wing plus one under the fuselage.

As the name itself suggests, LCA's delivery capacity will not be high compared to say the Su-30, but it can carry as much as the MiG-2ML, which the IAF's primary Close Air Support (CAS) fighter. Hence even with LCA's multi-role capability the IAF will need a 'bigger' fighter - the Su-30MKI Super Flanker has already been picked as its frontline fighter for the first Quater of the 21st Century (Su-30MKI Info and pictures).

Radar
The multi-mode radar is to take care of detection, tracking, terrain mapping and delivery of guided weapons. The track-while-scan feature keeps track of multiple targets (maximum 10) and also allows simultaneous multiple target engagement. Pulse-Doppler gives the look-down shoot-down capability. Ground mapping feature, frequency agility and other ECCM techniques make the radar truly state-of-the-art.

The antenna is a light weight (less than 5 kg), low profile slotted waveguide array with a multilayer feed network for broad band operation. The salient technical features are: two plane monopulse signals, low side lobe levels and integrated IFF, and GUARD and BITE channels. The heart of MMR is the signal processor, which is built around VLSI-ASICs and i960 processors to meet the functional needs of MMR in different modes of its operation. Its role is to process the radar receiver output, detect and locate targets, create ground map, and provide contour map when selected. Post-detection processor resolves range and Doppler ambiguities and forms plots for subsequent data processor. The special feature of signal processor is its real-time configurability to adapt to requirements depending on selected mode of operation.

To be jointly developed by State owned HAL and Electronics Radar Development Establishment (ERDE) the project has run into major delays and cost escalations.

Two Avro aircraft - HS748M have been modified for the purposes of testing the radar. The idea of doing these tests on an Avro is that these planes can fly for a longer time and hence collect a lot more data.

PV-2 is planned to be equipped with the Radar and Fire Control System (FCS).

----------------------------

Before making wild and baseless statements about the MCA, look at that proverb you posted and spare a look at that pathetic J-12(?).
Its going literally nowhere, and wont till china find anything to copy from. China is great at mass production but india's R&D is infinite times better and technologically superior.

First please dont post the whole article and second is that the Chinese J-12 is a fighter of its class. It is a fifth generation fighter but as China is not advanced as Russia and USA then it will be the lower fifth generation.

Edit: Fifth generation

Out,
Russian

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Russian]

Also to make the ground even I would like to say that LCA is in the drain for sometime.

Following India's nuclear weapons tests in early 1998, the United States placed an embargo on the sale of General Electric 404 jet engines which are to power the LCA. The US also denied the fly-by-wire system for the aircraft sold by the US firm Lockheed-Martin. As of June 1998 the first flight of the LCA had been delayed due to systems integration tests. The first flight awaits completion of the Digital Flight Control Systems, being developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE).

The MCA to India is like J-12 to China. They are both being developed with the help of other countries and they are both push the two great countries to the front.

India's DRDO intends to develop a stealthy Medium Combat Aircraft, a further extension of its LCA design, in order to replace the Jaguar and Mirage inventory beginning around 2010. Development costs are expected to be over US$2 billion. As of mid-1997 the MCA design concept had no vertical stabilizer and employed an advanced flight control system coupled to axisymetric nozzles. The twin engined aircraft is planned to have a thrust ratio of 7:8:1, and GE, SNECMA, and Klimov have all offered to provide the engines for this aircraft.

J-12 gets most of its help from Russia as China cant even make a fourth generation aircraft.

Stealthiness is an integral part of all new fighter designs and J-12 is no exception. The engines are most likely to be Russian with Thrust Vectoring. Stealth and thrust vectoring are two features that are a must in all aircraft being designed today. Interestingly, Chinese aircraft designers will actually perform a 'generation leap' if J-12 goes into service with PLAAF. All aircraft produced in China before (apart from licenced Su-27) have been 3rd generation aircraft.

J-12 will rival the MCA.

J-12's immediate rival will be India's MCA (Medium Combat Aircraft). It too is expected to be a 5th generation aircraft.

Also I must say that both the MCA and J-12 are coming out in about 2015.

Out,
Russian

the site for the tank Laser Self Defence Weapon that breaks gunner's optics and damage their eyesite www.sinodefence.com...
The site for the Su-30s thats gonna be upgraded with sunburns, I was surfing the net and just landed on this site but I can't seem to find it anymore but it is true, they will all be upgraded to be able to carry Sunburns before 2009 which is when the war with Taiwan could start. And military say serial production of sunburns will start in 2005 and they are trying to modify the sunburn to be faster and have a longer range but I and not sure how long its gonna take to finish the research and developement.

@russian,

Can you provide source where it says russia is helping our new J-13. BTW, it is not called J12 at all. it is called either J13 or J-XX. This fighter is entirely on our own and where says russia is helping? I start to think you don't really know much about PLA now. In your list, you didn't even list our 4 new DDGs and the 054 frigates, all which are already operational and they serve different roles form the 4 sovys. The Sovys are mainly used as carrier killers while the our 052 DDGs are an anti-air defense system with our "phased array radar system similar to the U.S. Aegis, which btw russia does not have.

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

@Indians

Yeah, we make crappy planes, but you can't even make planes???? LoL, so tell me which planes have you made? Don't give the LCA which has already failed! You have absolutely no airplane making capability and that's just pathetic.

So you say you will strike Chengdu, but are you assuming our anti-air defense system will just come to a halt and let you do that and our air force will just sit back and let you do things as you wish??? And aren't we going to strike you as well which we can do much better due to our superior airforce and missile forces. BTW, our missile tech is at least 1 or 2 generations ahead of you. You only recent tested the Agni missile which is pathetic compared to our stuff.

Afterall, we kicked your ass in 1962 so bad that it leaves me thinking that it will be the same this time around and you will simply run with your tails between your legs and crying to uncle sam, uncle rusky and uncle UK for help. lol

Since you guys started calling me wacho, commie, drones etc, I thought it only appropraite to call you weaklings veggie eaters; tit for tat. If you stop personal insults, I will too.

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

So if you indians think that you can take over Tibet easily, why haven't you dont so? Since kicking China's ass is such a cakewalk for the mighty india, why haven't you given us a spanking like we gave you in 1962?

Originally posted by Hawkssss
@russian,

Can you provide source where it says russia is helping our new J-13. BTW, it is not called J12 at all. it is called either J13 or J-XX. This fighter is entirely on our own and where says russia is helping? I start to think you don't really know much about PLA now. In your list, you didn't even list our 4 new DDGs and the 054 frigates, all which are already operational and they serve different roles form the 4 sovys. The Sovys are mainly used as carrier killers while the our 052 DDGs are an anti-air defense system with our "phased array radar system similar to the U.S. Aegis, which btw russia does not have.

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

Look I was looking for info on both countries. i was at work too at the same time. I cant seem to see you providing have the info I have provided. And about the J-12 go ask anyone. China CANT make a 5th generation fighter! Why? Cause they couldnt even make a 4th generation fighter without buying the Su-27 amd Su-30MKK! Get your facts straight! I will get a link as soon as i have time. i am at work and I cant be doing this all the time! For a change you people try do something!

Out,
Russian

Well, here is link on J-13 or J-XX
www.sinodefence.com...

No, we have made 4th generation fighter, which is the J10. BTW, china and india probably have more Su27/30 than you do.

Out.!

Originally posted by Russian

Look I was looking for info on both countries. i was at work too at the same time. I cant seem to see you providing have the info I have provided. And about the J-12 go ask anyone. China CANT make a 5th generation fighter! Why? Cause they couldnt even make a 4th generation fighter without buying the Su-27 amd Su-30MKK! Get your facts straight! I will get a link as soon as i have time. i am at work and I cant be doing this all the time! For a change you people try do something!

Out,
Russian

I don't believe Russia will systemically help China to develop J12/J13, Su27/Su30MKK are mostly Russian's 1980's technologies, while J12/J13 has possibilty to challenge Russian's most up to date technologies. Unless it is co-development, otherwise Russia will try to keep the technology gap between the 2 countries.

But Russia has a lot of thing we need to learn. I read some rumor that the software of calculating RCS is bought from Russia.

J-13 or J-XX is supposed to be on par with F-22 or the Pak-Fa that Russia and India are co-developing. Any help that we get from Russia is from parts supplies; in other words, the russian government is not helping at all. It views china as a strategic competitor and is doing its best trying to juggling cooperating and weakening china at the same time. Hence the Shanghai 5 and the recent border settlement while not willing to transfer technology such as strategic bombers, etc.

But, hey, they cant stop china and no one including the US will be able to stop us. In the decade or so, we will be on par with them and shall have the last laugh.

Ciao

China to lead supercomputing sector

www.chinadaily.com.cn...

Of course, all the indians will say "it is a copied crap" .lol

Originally posted by Hawkssss
@Indians

Yeah, we make crappy planes, but you can't even make planes???? LoL, so tell me which planes have you made? Don't give the LCA which has already failed! You have absolutely no airplane making capability and that's just pathetic.

So you say you will strike Chengdu, but are you assuming our anti-air defense system will just come to a halt and let you do that and our air force will just sit back and let you do things as you wish??? And aren't we going to strike you as well which we can do much better due to our superior airforce and missile forces. BTW, our missile tech is at least 1 or 2 generations ahead of you. You only recent tested the Agni missile which is pathetic compared to our stuff.

Afterall, we kicked your ass in 1962 so bad that it leaves me thinking that it will be the same this time around and you will simply run with your tails between your legs and crying to uncle sam, uncle rusky and uncle UK for help. lol

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

Im sorry the planes that you call your own(crappy they are) are tweaks of russian originals. We've done such tweaking ourselves you see, but we call we keep the original name!!
E.g: MiG-21 Bis etc. these upgrades have proved their worth as they startled US jets in the recent AF exercises.

And you assume that Chengdu will be an air strike only. Then you my friend need to spend some time studying assault strategies..

Also your missile tech is almost all stolen! Right out of Los Alamos and other such places in the US and Russia.Ours is indegenous...

we chinese don't need so aggressive here topic!Russian army tech equate usa & surpass china more!.i think.espcially at outspace and aeroengine and innovate idea field.china is lag!!!!

Ok people lets be realistic here, this thread is getting out of hand so this will probably be my last post on this:

Final "real world" political analysis of the feasibility of this war acutally happening:

This war will not happen with current trends and conditions in Asia, period. The United States, European Union and Russia would diffuse any potential conflict before it became a major war. Besides, Indian and Chinese leadership are not stupid, they would never try anything like this.

Regarding the current state of fighter development:

Russian is right the LCA is a dead fighter thanks to the US blocking shipments of needed components. I heard somewhere that India was re-working the design to accept Russian and Israeli bootleged European parts, but that will take time and it's unclear as to how much the design will suffer.

China has the J-XX project, but that's what it is, a project. It'll be some time before the fighter is ready and by then the gen5 fighter will already be delivered in the US, Russia and maybe even the EU.


Final Comments:

I fully believe China will be a superpower (look at the second line in my mini-profile), but she's not there yet. India, well, I could still use a bit of convincing regarding her march to superpower status. It could very well happen but I think India needs more progressive leadership and to come to a final peaceful understanding with Pakistan first.

Well I think I've said about all I care to regarding this thread, if anyone really wants to debate anything I've said, and I fully invite all to do so, please U2U me. I'll try to get back to you, I'm going to be in America until just after the election then I'm jetting over to Hong Kong for a bit, but I should be able to get on and check in from time to time.

May Peace Travel With You
~Astral

Originally posted by chinatea
we chinese don't need so aggressive here topic!Russian army tech equate usa & surpass china more!.i think.espcially at outspace and aeroengine and innovate idea field.china is lag!!!!

Me no understand what you say!!
No really no offence but what are you trying to say??!!
And yeah i agree thsi thread is getting outta hand..

Originally posted by Hawkssss
Well, here is link on J-13 or J-XX
www.sinodefence.com...

No, we have made 4th generation fighter, which is the J10. BTW, china and india probably have more Su27/30 than you do.

Out.!

Funny little Chinese. Go check your info.

Out,
Russian