The catch all mental health disorder... Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)

For many years i have worked therapeutically with teenagers with primary diagnoses of ADD/ADHD and Asperger's syndrome, many coming with a diagnosis of ODD, OCD ,attachment disorder and various conditions and sydromes that are typically part of the profiles sent along with them.
I remember one client in particular who was presented as a classic ODD case and he seemed wild on first glance.. when others in my organisation had difficulties with him, he and i would often sit and talk through the supposed situation and discuss possible ways forwards. Besides him being very hyperactive (which is hard for many adults to cope with as some expect people to fall in line with their expectations) he would make a great deal of sense about why he did not want to do something or how ridiculous other peoples' demands of him were. In short he was an intelligent free-thinker but because he came from a family with "social" issues and had the misfortune to have had poor role models in his life he found it very difficult to express his reasoning when faced with uppity adults.
Simply getting to know him, talking to him as an adult (he was 16-19 when i worked with him) and treating him with respect and understanding reduced supposed challenging behaviour to a negligible level (ie he was a teenager!), especially considering that he was in a "last chance" residential setting where he had no choice not to be there.
I really see ODD as another unneccessary modish term to describle an element of personality - these elements may seem extreme to some but we're a diverse bunch, us humans and long live that! Another good example of this is PDAS
www.autism.org.uk...
again, i have worked with many teens who supposedly have this condition, and while i do see this behaviour it is very dependent on individual situations and conditions - a skilled worker can circumvent this with relative ease and the main factors IMO&E were the primary diagnosis (ADD/ADHD and AS).
Like many, I do feel that ADD and ADHD are way overdiagnosed, and unfortunately this has a very negative effect on perceptions of people whose lives are severely challenged by these "disorders". It is a great shame that on a site supposedly dedicated to deying ignorance that many posters fall into the trap of disparaging people who really struggle with these difficulties, all because some doctor/social worker etc etc makes a bad diagnosis when poor parenting, bad diet and a generally f'd up society is the real problem, or because a local pain in the ass has a crappy diagnosis - look past your own nose, folks.

it's also an interesting perspective that maybe these more recent conditions (ODD, PDAS amongst others), that for me just define elements of personality could be used by TPTB against dissenters to discredit them. While equality/anti discrimination legislation can be used as a defence against sanctions such as imprisonment (in the uk at least, as far as i could work out), there are dangers there as someone's dissenting views could simply be brushed off as psychotic/condition driven nonsense.

Well, I certainly know that just about everyone on ATS has ODD (or at least everyone here is odd, at least). I think we're far to quick to label things as "disorders". I think about OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). I resent this being labeled as a disorder, it's not appropriate. Do you think that Einstein wasn't obsessive about physics, Mozart about music? Every great man or woman in history has been obsessed with the object of interest for which they are celebrated. It's not a disorder...it's passion.

Originally posted by InfiniteConsciousness

No it's not how you interact with "people". It's how you interact with CERTAIN people or attitudes, isn't it? How do you define "interacting with people properly"?

Well, first of all, psychology is a rather grey subject, isn't it? Because of that, it might be wise to keep things simple.
There are usually a reason why someone even gets checked for ODD, no?
Usually it goes something like this: People around this particular person thinks he/she is behaving "strange", as in not coping well with "others". Exactly how large part of "people" that includes is quite irrelevant. If people (parents, relatives, friends, teachers, doctors) react to this and think this is a problem, that person gets checked up.

The bigger this "problem" gets, the easier it is to noticei, and the behavior can be categorized to follow a well-known pattern and gets diagnosed with ODD (in this case).

So, a diagnose like that might be good for the person in case one is aware that one "differs" somewhat from others, and it might be good for teachers / psychiatrics to use other methods to make sure that this person doesn't get pissed off and just quit.
The downside of handing out diagnoses left and right is that it's sometimes used as an excuse not to work on it. That parents aren't in any way responsible of the upbringing and how that might affect them, or how things are being taught at school.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

So anyone standing up against tyranny... anyone standing up against the global banking cartel... and anyone not absolutely submissive to TPTB could be diagnosed with ODD. For those, like me, who are wondering just how exactly "they" will take firearms away from lawful citizens... here is the answer. Get diagnosed with ODD and I bet you fail a background check the next time you attempt to legally purchase a firearm.

That's freaking scarry. Lets take this a step further. FEMA camps. Can't have people that TPTB have diagnosed with this ODD or what ever they'll term use mingling with the worshipers err followers . . err "normal" citizens causing trouble now can we. It would play up big in the press, " This is for their own good. We're not imprisoning them, we're only taking them away for treatment. Oh, and if you happen to see or hear of someone experiencing any of the following symptoms please call the 1-800- number on the bottom of your screen."

Why don't they just call it, (CBU) Can't Be Used and stop with the games. .

reply to post by acmpnsfal

Here we go again, another thread about a condition only professionals would be able to properly diagnose. You do not understand the critera that needs to be met in order to make the diagnosis. Sure you can read a list of behaviors, but what they mean to a lay person and what they mean to a professional are totally different. Also, you cannot medicate away Oppositional Defiant Disorder. So its not a diagnosis used to push medication.

Professionals? Do you mean someone who goes through today's education process and gets that neat looking scroll with the shiny gold seal with your name written in calligraphy? You say you cannot medicate away O.D.D., is this your professional opinion or a layman's position?

reply to post by BlastedCaddy


pray tell how?? before me and alot of others on this board end up being hauled into the mental institution and drugged for not bending over when we are told and allowing ourselves to be screwed into the grave by our leaders, who quite frankly seem to have their own mental health issues....

seems to me that most kids are wired to question authority, not do what they are told, ect....
that is a natural part of growing up and really doesn't reflect bad parenting or anything else. the bad parenting steps in when the parents over react, drag their kids into a therapist hoping a magic drug will make life easier for them instead of spending the time with the kid and allowing them to be kids!!

to put it frankly, I have seen some parents who were such bad parents, hey, their kids have a danged good reason to be a tad bit defiant with them!!!

and will I was reading an article today about the vets, and it mentioned ODD, and I didn't get the impression that they were talking about kids...sorry. I think they were talking about the vets.....and, if there were illegal orders being handed down, and I believe there was, they have a danged good reason to be a tad bit defiant also!!

Judging from the "symptoms" of this mental disease, I'd bet we all have a little ODD.

To the loony bin, everyone!

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


I really hate people like you who believe that behavioral issues are just a conspiracy, because you've obviously never dealt with a sever mental illness yourself.

Originally posted by ScatterBrain
reply to post by acmpnsfal

 

Here we go again, another thread about a condition only professionals would be able to properly diagnose. You do not understand the critera that needs to be met in order to make the diagnosis. Sure you can read a list of behaviors, but what they mean to a lay person and what they mean to a professional are totally different. Also, you cannot medicate away Oppositional Defiant Disorder. So its not a diagnosis used to push medication.

Professionals? Do you mean someone who goes through today's education process and gets that neat looking scroll with the shiny gold seal with your name written in calligraphy? You say you cannot medicate away O.D.D., is this your professional opinion or a layman's position?

Yes - professionals, and if you weren't so ignorant on the subject matter you would realize that ODD is just part of what professionals use to build an overall picture of a person's mental state. There's 5 axis that go into a diagnosis, each focused on different parts of the personality - from acute symptoms, to personality traits, to environmental influences.


Axis I: Clinical disorders, including major mental disorders, learning disorders and substance use disorders
Axis II: Personality disorders and intellectual disabilities (although developmental disorders, such as Autism, were coded on Axis II in the previous edition, these disorders are now included on Axis I)
Axis III: Acute medical conditions and physical disorders
Axis IV: Psychosocial and environmental factors contributing to the disorder
Axis V: Global Assessment of Functioning or Children's Global Assessment Scale for children and teens under the age of 18


But hey, you read the symptoms of one condition and are an expert, right?

Oh and - The DSM-IV-TR states, because it is produced for the completion of federal legislative mandates, its use by people without clinical training can lead to inappropriate application of its contents. Appropriate use of the diagnostic criteria is said to require extensive clinical training, and its contents "cannot simply be applied in a cookbook fashion".[25] The APA notes diagnostic labels are primarily for use as a "convenient shorthand" among professionals. The DSM advises laypersons should consult the DSM only to obtain information, not to make diagnoses, and people who may have a mental disorder should be referred to psychological counseling or treatment. Further, a shared diagnosis or label may have different causes or require different treatments; for this reason the DSM contains no information regarding treatment or cause. The range of the DSM represents an extensive scope of psychiatric and psychological issues or conditions, and it is not exclusive to what may be considered "illnesses".

en.wikipedia.org... _Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders#Multi-axial_system

Originally posted by Evil_Santa
reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

 

I really hate people like you who believe that behavioral issues are just a conspiracy,
because you've obviously never dealt with a sever mental illness yourself.

and i really hate ignorant folks
who just go through life
ASSuming things

and it's obvious to me that you've obviously
dealt with a severe mental illness yourself

the one that lets you see what you want to see
while ignoring reality

sorta like how all the examples provided in my post
just became invisible to you, and only you


EDIT TO ADD
ahh my bad thought youi were delusional as a result of your blinders

now i see it's all about the religion that is your bread and butter





wanna know the difference between a medicine person or a shaman from some jungle tribe
and the "psychotherapeutic" community?

the former have made the inner journey

not so those who try to objectify the purely subjective

healer heal thyself comes to mind

Reply to post by ScatterBrain

Its my professional opinion, I know for a fact you cannot medicate away Opposition Defiant Disorder. It can only be fixed through counseling as its not caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. You have to alter their behavior and thinking. Also, someone who has the credentials to evaluate and diagnose something like this would have had to gone through some type of graduate or doctorate program. Graduate schools are not degree mills.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


Maybe you should look through my posting history to realize that i have a vested interest in utilizing physiological methods for diagnosing mental disorders. I read through the posts that you quoted and can tell that the authors aren't 100% on the up and up of current research.

For instance this line regarding ADD/ADHD, "I have no way of knowing whether this "disorder" is an actual, physical, neurological condition or not, but neither does anybody else in this early stage of neuroscience." is 100% crap. Modern qEEG scans of individuals with the disorder generally show abnormally low activity in the frontal areas of their brain (beta/alpha waves) as well as abnormalities in other regions. These are scans that are compared against a z-score database of thousands of brain scans to see what is normal activity and what isn't.

www.qeeg.com...

fMRI, LORETA, SPECT, qEEGs are all being studied and show that there are physiological differences in individuals with disorders, and these differences can be measured enough to give a professional diagnosing issues more insight into how a person's brain works.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Hell - here's a search for papers on the subject of just qEEG and ADHD

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

reply to post by Evil_Santa


you read my post and followed up on my links?
doubtful or you'd know it was 1st published in forbes in 1996
www.orthodoxytoday.org...

Anyone with a child in school knows the signs all too well. I have children in school, and I am intrigued by the faith parents now invest—the craze began about 1990—in psychologists who diagnose their children as suffering from a defect known as attention deficit disorder, or ADD. Of course, I have no way of knowing whether this "disorder" is an actual, physical, neurological condition or not, but neither does anybody else in this early stage of neuroscience. The symptoms of this supposed malady are always the same. The child, or, rather, the boy—forty–nine out of fifty cases are boys—fidgets around in school, slides off his chair, doesn't pay attention, distracts his classmates during class, and performs poorly. In an earlier era he would have been pressured to pay attention, work harder, show some self–discipline. To parents caught up in the new intellectual climate of the 1990s, that approach seems cruel, because my little boy's problem is...he's wired wrong! The poor little tyke —the fix has been in since birth! Invariably the parents complain, "All he wants to do is sit in front of the television set and watch cartoons and play Sega Genesis." For how long? "How long? For hours at a time." Hours at a time; as even any young neuroscientist will tell you, that boy may have a problem, but it is not an attention deficit.

Nevertheless, all across America we have the spectacle of an entire generation of little boys, by the tens of thousands, being dosed up on ADD's magic bullet of choice, Ritalin, the CIBA–Geneva Corporation's brand name for the stimulant methylphenidate. I first encountered Ritalin in 1966 when I was in San Francisco doing research for a book on the psychedelic or hippie movement. A certain species of the genus hippie was known as the Speed Freak, and a certain strain of Speed Freak was known as the Ritalin Head. The Ritalin Heads loved Ritalin. You'd see them in the throes of absolute Ritalin raptures...Not a wiggle, not a peep...They would sit engrossed in anything at all...a manhole cover, their own palm wrinkles...indefinitely...through shoulda–been mealtime after mealtime...through raging insomnias...Pure methyl–phenidate nirvana...From 1990 to 1995, CIBA–Geneva's sales of Ritalin rose 600 percent; and not because of the appetites of subsets of the species Speed Freak in San Francisco, either. It was because an entire generation of American boys, from the best private schools of the Northeast to the worst sludge–trap public schools of Los Angeles and San Diego, was now strung out on methylphenidate, diligently doled out to them every day by their connection, the school nurse. America is a wonderful country! I mean it! No honest writer would challenge that statement! The human comedy never runs out of material! It never lets you down!

and spare me all your technobabble
my father was a violent sociopath
he also had a VERY large collection of books on psychology and psychiatry

i've experianced AND forgotten more about human behavior
And authoritarian systems use of the above as a control system
than you will ever learn.

in addition there is one less psychoterapist in the world, abusing facile ODD diagnoses
after insisting on "interviewing" me, [for biting off a piece of daddy ] instead of daddy who only tried to strangle grandma


10 minutes after my 1st hearing the term,

the poor thing started screaming and just couldn't stop.


so spare me your justifications of the system

i am not interested

feel free to make the typical online diagnosis if it makes you feel any better.

i made my point here

reply to post by Evil_Santa

Awe Evil_Santa,

Thanks for the link darling but, I have never sold my college texts. Did you get your information from the net or from your own college texts? Are you educating me? Did my comment offend you? I know exactly what the field of psychiatry does and is used for. Want to go a few rounds big boy? I went through school for this....I have a feeling you only stayed at a holiday express.

Let me give you a little tidbit ok.... today, WE are training kids...yes young naive adults...in the field of psychology (I am referring to present tense ok darling... today....not yesteryear) and their job will be to collect data, give a questionnaire or two...then take that data and enter it into a computer. Then, the computer will analyze the data and tell the psychologist the choices he has in regards to the treatment.... the approved choices of course. Now of course anyone who decides to have a private practice can choose how to run their practice AS long as they comply with the government mandates.

We can label anyone if we so choose (or instructed to), when we need to... or want too. It is a business, a method of research to understand, experiment and control people and their behavior, (including harm people). It takes a certain type of person to be comfortable and turn a blind eye to the manipulation/deceptive practices in this job.

Originally posted by acmpnsfal
Reply to post by redhorse

 

Sure you have to complete undergrad to go to grad school, but undergrad psych is not indepth enough to count for anything. ODD is not used to medicate children because you cannot chemically treat ODD.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

You're not listening. I'll spell it out a little slower this time. ODD is the umbrella diagnosis. It is the foot in the door so that they can medicate people for all of the the "associated" aspects. It's a scam technique.

But you know what...

You're right. Undergrad psych is a joke. In fact, so is graduate psych. The training in its entirety is custom designed to attract pretty much anyone who is trying to figure out what the heck is wrong with their own head. This includes the entire gambit from a little bit off, to bat-guano loony.

Most of them fail at sorting it out, because there aren't really any answers in the curriculum, or mental health in general these days. The point of the academic path isn't really to provide answers that can help people anyway. Not anymore. The point is to pump out as many angry, crazy shrinks as possible so that they can become self-righteous, power tripping, petty little tyrant tools of big pharma, insurance companies, and government mandates; the majority of which are too stupid or too screwed up to realize that they are tools. Which is exactly how we get idiotic labels like ODD.

Unfortunately, I have to jump through these hoops. If I want the credibility and authority to help anyone I need those silly, expensive, and applicably useless pieces of paper. So, I will keep my 4.0, in my joke major, and do my best to get into the most prestigious and credible graduate program that I can... and promptly throw 80% of it out of my head as soon as I graduate.

As an aside, it's interesting that you still haven't named your own credentials that give you any superior credibility in this argument. Which makes me wonder what makes you think you are such an expert on under-grad psych. Is it because you have taken it, or (most likely IMO) you just saw some generic blurb on the interwebz about "can't start a real mental health career until you have at least a masters." But hey, thank you for explaining that bit to me.

reply to post by acmpnsfal

Its my professional opinion, I know for a fact you cannot medicate away Opposition Defiant Disorder. It can only be fixed through counseling as its not caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. You have to alter their behavior and thinking. Also, someone who has the credentials to evaluate and diagnose something like this would have had to gone through some type of graduate or doctorate program. Graduate schools are not degree mills.

I know, I was being a little sarcastic I guess. I put in 5 years of college (maintained 4.0 throughout, so I get it), I was referring to the abuse potential in the field. You know we have no good reason to claim over 45% of elementary school aged children with mental disorders. I don't care what crap I was taught, historically psychiatry has been a cover for abuse and experimentation. When a field of medicine has no scientific background and we must trust the judgement of the doctor whom is motivated by financial incentives and tasty grants with very little accountability ...coupled with its own history of abuses ... I guess it just irks me lol
Look at how we still push anti-depressants.... they have done so much harm and has had a success rate of?...nil...nada If behavioral therapy was not secondary to drug therapy, then I might see things a little differently...but, that is not the case. I starred you because ... everything you said is kosher

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


I'm sorry to hear about such a traumatic childhood, and I have experiences with similar parental figures - my mom was a borderline sociopath with hardcore narcissistic and manipulative tenancies.

You should know that sociopaths don't have a definitive diagnosis in the DSM and they fall into the anti-social personality disorder category which has traditionally been considered untreatable, however recent studies using neurofeedback (retraining how brainwaves function) is showing extremely promising results towards treating this disorder.

The link below goes over 13 individuals who went through 80 - 120 sessions, and 12 of the 13 showed significant improvements (50% or better on psychotic symptoms) in personality testing, after neurofeedback therapy.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

What i'm saying is that the field of neurology and psychology is rapidly advancing using objective based tests to measure abnormal ways that the brain functions, and this data is being applied through objective based therapy to treat conditions without drugs or talk therapy. ODD is a legitimate disorder, but unless one is trained in how-to diagnose someone based on an all-encompassing picture of that person's behavior (which is almost impossible in a 60 min interview) just reading the symptoms and applying a diagnosis of a condition can be given to just about anyone. Everyone shows symptoms of just about anything that's listed in the DSM, but it's when those symptoms become a focus point of a person's life, and causes them significant duress due to it, does it become a disorder.

reply to post by redhorse

Wow redhorse Bravo!!

Most of them fail at sorting it out, because there aren't really any answers in the curriculum, or mental health in general these days. The point of the academic path isn't really to provide answers that can help people anyway. Not anymore. The point is to pump out as many angry, crazy shrinks as possible so that they can become self-righteous, power tripping, petty little tyrant tools of big pharma, insurance companies, and government mandates; the majority of which are too stupid or too screwed up to realize that they are tools. Which is exactly how we get idiotic labels like ODD. Unfortunately, I have to jump through these hoops. If I want the credibility and authority to help anyone I need those silly, expensive, and applicably useless pieces of paper. So, I will keep my 4.0, in my joke major, and do my best to get into the most prestigious and credible graduate program that I can... and promptly throw 80% of it out of my head as soon as I graduate.

Bravo! Yes! I saw this too and decided that the education I was getting was not really centered on helping people as much as it was for the very reasons you listed..... You articulated my own experience in college .. I remember digging deeper for a research paper and OH Nooo! We will not even be criticizing big pharma's research results. no no no. I just couldn't wrap my mind around the logic of getting into bed with these who have such a broad control over what we learn (I am still amazed we were banned from discussing or using at any length any research that contradicted big pharma's research results) and what we are permitted and encouraged (financially) to do in practice.

reply to post by ScatterBrain


It's great to see that you have more insight into this then the average person who will read a DSM diagnosis, think to themselves "Gee, i have some of those symptoms sometimes" and feel like the diagnosis is targeted at them. Read over the rest of my posts in this thread and you'll see that I agree that subjective based science isn't a good way for psychology to move forward and that objective based science is.

In terms of my credentials - no I have not finished college, having dealt with avoidant personality disorder put a gigantic wrench in my ability to function outside of my own bed room. However, in 14 sessions of neurofeedback (currently going) I'm already able to get out and feel semi-confident around other people, now just 60 - 100 more to go. After that I plan on utilizing the research I have been doing over the last 6 years online towards a degree/masters/phd and focus on neurofeedback therapy. It's going to be interesting to see how many classes I'm able to test out of due to the amount of college texts that i have downloaded, and read, over the last few years.