The Sun Rising from the West before the Sun rises from the West

reply to post by Akragon


BTW what Thomas were you referring to when you asked if I read it?

I would like to look it over. There are many books in my collection of "to read" books, the list is long lol and there is not enough time in the day so far for me to read all of them but I would like to add it to my collection for future reading if time ever lets me. Slowly but surely I'll get to it or maybe I'll throw it in front of my list if it is not the size of an encyclopaedia got a lot of those already on the list hehe.

reply to post by Lostmymarbles


It seems you just gloss over what i write...

Did you click any of the links in my posts?

Thomas

I think you should question everything you read.... be sceptical... I was about the gospels once...

What do you disagree about within them?

reply to post by Akragon


I did read what you wrote, not sure on what links you are referring to though.

The reason I responded with a different way to interpret what you wrote is because it can be words instead of food.

For instance:

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Lostmymarbles

 

Matthew 15

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Line 7 talks of speaking
Line 8 also talks of speaking and what is being said by an individual
Line 9 it is what they are speaking the commandments
Line 10-11 how what is being spoken is being accepted and what is said back in return
Line 12-14 that misuse of knowledge would cause the blind to lead the blind because they do not use the word of God in the way that it is suppose to be used
Line 15 Peter wants to know this knowledge that the Pharisees speech of
Line 16-20 Jesus tells Peter that what goes into the mouth (knowledge) is not evil but what comes from it from the heart can be evil. Now the part of the belly, could it be a real belly? soul? brain? But when he says what comes from the heart to the mouth could be evil if the heart is evil. Could that be how the knowledge is use such as the commandments, how ones own agenda (heart) makes them say what is different from what they had learned?
Line 19 shows what the heart can misuse the knowledge for their own intent
Line 20 is him saying that nowhere does it say that not washing one's hands before eating does not defile the man and that the commandment that they had referred to is not one that was given to them by God but one they made up which is also hand in hand in Line 13 which would be the knowledge God has given them, the roots that are pulled are those that were stuff that God did not teach them

Do you see how it can be interpreted as knowledge and not food?
They speak of the blind leading the blind. Leaders that do not know how to lead will not be good leaders and those that follow them would be misguided.

I could break down the other one if you'd like but that would have be to at a later time, perhaps tomorrow.

reply to post by Lostmymarbles

Do you see how it can be interpreted as knowledge and not food?

Not really...

Jesus tells Peter that what goes into the mouth (knowledge) is not evil

Do you eat your knowledge?

Or does it come through the eyes and the "ears"... then through the mind?

is him saying that nowhere does it say that not washing one's hands before eating does not defile the man and that the commandment that they had referred to is not one that was given to them by God but one they made up which is also hand in hand in Line 13 which would be the knowledge God has given them, the roots that are pulled are those that were stuff that God did not teach them

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

and...

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

I could break down the other one if you'd like but that would have be to at a later time, perhaps tomorrow.

No thank you...

reply to post by Akragon


When I read, I read with my mouth and my eyes. When I read out loud I also read with my mouth and my eyes. I mouth the words as I am reading them.

What makes me believe they are talking about knowledge is the use of the words "belly" and heart", why would those words be used if it was to describe food? Well, lol, the first one yes but why the second "heart"? Especially in the way they say the heart corrupts/defiles the man with what had once entered as clean and leaves as dirty.

Was not that whole chapter dealing with how angry the Pharisees were upset that the disciples were to sit down and not wash their hands before eating, a show of disrespect to them and their elders for a tradition that they did?

In which part, Jesus asks them do they not disrespect God and his commandments with their traditions?

I do not deny that this also can be interpreted as eating food, but the way it is written (especially in other Bible translations) and certain words, coupled with the fact that Jesus is irritated that they misused the word of God for their own traditions leads me to believe this is dealing with knowledge/commandments/books, that have been used in ways that it was not intended.

I admit I could be wrong, it is late and I have been up for several days with little or not sleep. Maybe looking over it again with fresh eyes tomorrow might help.

But the use of certain words as well as the context in which they are used leads me to believe this is not "food" but something else. Maybe it is not knowledge or food and instead something completely different. Sadly this is what happens when there are so many different translations. Probably why Revelations says not to change any of the texts for fear of the plagues. Side note, does seem odd that plagues and other nasties did strike throughout time periods in which the Bible had been translated. Probably just random bad luck over and over again or something more, who knows, but it is odd.

reply to post by Akragon


Let's conclude this conversation, Akragon, the true interpretation I have given you but you reject it, not because you are right, but because you don't want to be proven wrong.

Let's use your interpretation.

Eating with unwashed hands defile not a man, it's true, but defilement comes out of the mouth ..

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

false witness

You keep claiming that Jesus is son of God, when Jesus never claimed to be son of God.

blasphemies

God said He has no son, He begets not, nor was He begotten, but you claim that Jesus is His son, something that no Prophet ever taught his people.

18:4 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son,

18:5[b ]A thing whereof they have no knowledge, nor hath their fathers. Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. They speak naught but a lie.

20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
and...

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

So by your own interpretation of God's words, we find you guilty of defilement on two counts, for eating unclean food, and for false witnessing and most of all Blasphemy.

That is why a blind cannot guide a blind, they will both fall into error.

That is why God sends Prophets and Messengers to teach mankind, on condition that they speak nothing but the Truth, and only what they Hear and not what they desire.


21:26 And they say: The Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but those whom they call sons are honored slaves;

21:27 They speak not until He hath spoken, and they act by His command.

Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds!

Originally posted by queenofangels_17

Originally posted by Trublbrwing
reply to post by queenofangels_17

 

I'm really glad I stumbled upon your post. Since it is now 9:30pm I have almost seven hours to do terrible things and repent afterwards before the telltale Sun pops up. Following your rules I can continue that pattern ever evening until doomsday.
Also, what if your Mother was an a hole? Not every woman who gives birth is worthy of sainthood. Somewhere in the world there are children starving and crying because mom likes drugs more than her kids.
It is nonsense like your post which makes logical people rethink their religious positions. A god who requires you to worship someone who is unworthy, invisible or cruel isn't my cup of tea.
I say get it over with, living with an imaginary hammer over your head isn't really living, and besides, that crap really turns me on.
Where are my bacon bits????

A mother will always deserve Mercy from God and from the believers.

31:14 And We have enjoined upon man concerning his parents. His mother beareth him in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning is in two years. Give thanks unto Me and unto thy parents. Unto Me is the journeying.

46:15 And We have commended unto man kindness toward parents. His mother beareth him with reluctance, and bringeth him forth with reluctance, and the bearing of him and the weaning of him is thirty months, till, when he attaineth full strength and reacheth forty years, he saith: My Lord! Arouse me that I may give thanks for the favor wherewith Thou hast favored me and my parents, and that I may do right acceptable unto Thee. And be gracious unto me In the matter of my seed. Lo! I have turned unto Thee repentant, and lo! I am of those who surrender (unto Thee).

You did not understand my similitude because your heart is too heavy.

The Sun rising from the West will be seen by all men, including you. May God have Mercy on those who believe it before they see it.

Take your nose out of that ancient fairy tale and read a little history before you extol the virtues of motherhood in the east. Of all the people on the planet there are few who have treated, and still treat, women as poorly as Muslim's. How can you quote that book and see images of women with face masks? How can you quote that book when women in the middle east aren't allowed to drive, vote or even read in some countries?
Just keep repenting and surrendering and see where that gets ya.

reply to post by Trublbrwing

reply to post by queenofangels_17

Let's conclude this conversation, Akragon, the true interpretation I have given you but you reject it, not because you are right, but because you don't want to be proven wrong.

Right... Then why are you running?

Please "prove" me wrong...

The Gospels predate Barnabas by at least 100 years... and thus far i've seen nothing from your holy book that is worth more then a glance...

Your so called truth... Is not mine...

You keep claiming that Jesus is son of God, when Jesus never claimed to be son of God

On the contrary... He did call himself "the son of God"... he did not call himself God...

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

God said He has no son, He begets not, nor was He begotten, but you claim that Jesus is His son, something that no Prophet ever taught his people.

18:4 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son,

18:5A thing whereof they have no knowledge, nor hath their fathers. Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. They speak naught but a lie.

According to your book... which... Thus far i reject...

Of course you are only one Fanatic... and i've never trusted the words of religious Fanatics... Perhaps others from your religion might know your book better then you...

So by your own interpretation of God's words, we find you guilty of defilement on two counts, for eating unclean food, and for false witnessing and most of all Blasphemy.

We who?

Im not on trial... your words mean nothing. Please refer to the above statement about Fanatical religious "Authorities"...

That is why a blind cannot guide a blind, they will both fall into error.

That is why God sends Prophets and Messengers to teach mankind, on condition that they speak nothing but the Truth, and only what they Hear and not what they desire.


21:26 And they say: The Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but those whom they call sons are honored slaves;

21:27 They speak not until He hath spoken, and they act by His command.

Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds!

And clearly you are neither a prophet or a messenger... Though it seems your "sight" is barely up to par...

reply to post by Akragon


7:199 Keep to forgiveness (O Muhammad), and enjoin kindness, and turn away from the ignorant.

We will never see eye to eye, the good is always at war with evil.

God will decide between us.

Wait, we're waiting also.

reply to post by Akragon


And clearly you are neither a prophet or a messenger... Though it seems your "sight" is barely up to par..

Allah is sufficient witness between me and you.

46:35 Then have patience (O Muhammad) even as the stout of heart among the messengers of old had patience, and seek not to hasten on the doom for them. On the day when they see that which they are promised (it will seem to them) as though they had tarried but an hour of daylight. A clear message. Shall any be destroyed save evil living folk?

reply to post by Akragon


You have no discernment, Akragon and you will never have, because of the disease in your heart.

When you recognize what is in your sight, everything will become clear for you.

To deny one of us, is to deny all of us, and the One who sent us.

Those who denied us became the losers in this world and losers in the Hereafter.

3:137 Systems have passed away before you. Do but travel in the land and see the nature of the consequence for those who did deny (the messengers).

3:184 And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.

22:42 If they deny thee (Muhammad), even so the folk of Noah, and (the tribes of) Aad and Thamud, before thee, denied Our messengers; -
-
35:4 And if they deny thee, (O Muhammad), messengers (of Allah) were denied before thee. Unto Allah all things are brought back.

35:25 And if they deny thee: those before them also denied. their messengers came unto them with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and with the Psalms and the Scripture giving light.

38:14 Not one of them but did deny the messengers, therefore My doom was justified,

40:70 Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith we send Our messengers. But they will come to know,

but for those who believe us..

57:19 And those who believe in Allah and His messengers, they are the loyal; and the martyrs are with their Lord; they have their reward and their light; while as for those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are owners of hell fire.

queenofangels_17’s quotes from the Koran can all be summed up in two sentences, “Do what God tells you and you will be rewarded” and “ Disobey God and you will be punished.” There, I have explained the entirety of queenofangels_17’s position and his interpretation of the Koran. I believe (and I am not a Muslim) that the Koran is a little more sophisticated and spiritual then that.
Mindless repetition of rules and regulations is not my definition of what is spiritual.
Also, your “argument” (en.wikipedia.org... ) is a well known fallacy. It is similar to the ridiculous and evil en.wikipedia.org...
Pascal’s wager is ridiculous because it works for any proposition.
1. If you believe that an elf lives at the bottom of en.wikipedia.org... , you will be infinitely rewarded. If you disbelieve you will be eternally punished.
2. If proposition 1 is not true (there is no elf) nothing bad will happen to you!
3. However, if it is true you will be eternally rewarded and if you do not you will be eternally tortured.
4. Therefore, it is wise to believe proposition 1.
Pascal’s wager is evil because it puts personal gain above truth and love.


“Pigs are unclean animals,”
queenofangels_17
Nope!
“In fact, pigs are some of the cleanest animals around,…”
FROM
www.pbs.org...
However, I have always admired the prohibition against eating pork because pigs are the 4th most intelligent animal.
1. Humans
2. Chimps
3. Dolphins
4. Pigs

Originally posted by wittgenstein
queenofangels_17’s quotes from the Koran can all be summed up in two sentences, “Do what God tells you and you will be rewarded” and “ Disobey God and you will be punished.” There, I have explained the entirety of queenofangels_17’s position and his interpretation of the Koran. I believe (and I am not a Muslim) that the Koran is a little more sophisticated and spiritual then that.
Mindless repetition of rules and regulations is not my definition of what is spiritual.
Also, your “argument” (en.wikipedia.org... ) is a well known fallacy. It is similar to the ridiculous and evil en.wikipedia.org...
Pascal’s wager is ridiculous because it works for any proposition.
1. If you believe that an elf lives at the bottom of en.wikipedia.org... , you will be infinitely rewarded. If you disbelieve you will be eternally punished.
2. If proposition 1 is not true (there is no elf) nothing bad will happen to you!
3. However, if it is true you will be eternally rewarded and if you do not you will be eternally tortured.
4. Therefore, it is wise to believe proposition 1.
Pascal’s wager is evil because it puts personal gain above truth and love.


“Pigs are unclean animals,”
queenofangels_17
Nope!
“In fact, pigs are some of the cleanest animals around,…”
FROM
www.pbs.org...
However, I have always admired the prohibition against eating pork because pigs are the 4th most intelligent animal.
1. Humans
2. Chimps
3. Dolphins
4. Pigs

wittgenstein,

This has always been the case with God's messengers, they were always denied by the majority of people especially those who are proud and who do not believe in the Last Day.

6:112 Thus have We appointed unto every Prophet an adversary--devils of humankind and jinn who inspire in one another plausible discourse through guile. If thy Lord willed, they would not do so; so leave them alone with their devising;

7:179 Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.

"Do what God tells you and you will be rewarded” and “ Disobey God and you will be punished.” There, I have explained the entirety of queenofangels_17’s position and his interpretation of the Koran.

Is not the same taught in the Bible? In the Torah and all Divinely revealed books?

Who Will Go To Hell?

Those who will go to hell include any who are not obedient to God and have not received salvation from Him. The Bible makes it clear that the unrighteous and disobedient will not receive the reward of eternal life in heaven but will rather be punished eternally in hell.

www.bassfishing.org...

God says to follow the messenger who asks you no fee or reward.

36:21 Follow those who ask of you no fee, and who are rightly guided.

6:90 Those are they whom Allah guideth, so follow their guidance. Say (O Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no fee for it. Lo! it is naught but a Reminder to (His) creatures.

38:86 Say (O Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no fee for this, and I am no impostor.

12:104 Thou askest them no fee for it. It is naught else than a reminder unto the peoples.

***
A terrific doom awaits you and you all but want to attack the Messenger whose only duty is to deliver the message to you.

I am talking to you with Certainty, from the Knower of All as a Mercy to mankind, to whosoever will believe.. but you will not unless Allah wills it. He is the Fountain of Fear and the Fountain of Mercy!

How are you a messanger? You recite from your holy book and don't bring up something new?

Really, I don't understand how you could be called a messanger, if you are in fact nothing else than a preacher.

This should not be taken for an insult, but I think that the "message" is missing or possibly just the repitition of the already known words of your holy book.

queenofangels_17
Are you claiming that I am “ a devil of humankind”? That seems unkind to me and rather ridiculous. However, I do take it as a compliment that you admire my abilities at debate. Tho they ( the truth be known) hardly equal the intellectual sophistication of a demon.
The Koran ( as does the Bible ) wants us to think!
P.S. Once again you have committed a logical fallacy (en.wikipedia.org... )
One should debate ( if one is sane and logical) your opponent’s position and not your opponent.
Let’s say that I am a demon (I strongly disagree) , but I will accept that proposition temporally ( provisionally) . Your “argument” is similar to,
1. en.wikipedia.org... is a liar.
2. Manson says that 2+2=4
3. Therefore, 2+2 does not = 4.
Obviously, an absurd argument!

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Lostmymarbles

 

So why play Russian Roulette with your soul?

Better yet...

Why worry about the commandments of men... which came from a book that is thousands of years old?

Do you believe you can damage your soul by eating something?

Is the spirit not more then the flesh?

Depends if I cause suffering with me eating something. I always wanna fix what I cause. I do not know if eating any meat is god or bad karmaticly. But if it is bad then I will work to fix it when I get a chance. The only thing you can do is take responsability when you error and help others when it is appropiate.

reply to post by Akragon

No need to read any story. Did I not tell you to empty your vessel? You did not, so the pure water I gave you did not benefit you.

Do you know my story better than me?

Two kinds of people will go to Hell because of Jesus, the first ones are the ones who hate him so much that they tried to crucify him, the other ones loved him so much that they made him more than what he is.

Which one are you?

Allah teaches the religion, no one teaches Him.

God enlighten spirits and the minds of those spirits create religons based on their experiances of god. That means that all religons are views and not the whole thing of what god can teach you. A smaller picture of the whole. In reality more or less an idol of what god is. But some pictures are better at describing god than others but do not listen to me I am biased.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by Trublbrwing

 

That's the first reply in this entire thread that makes any sense.
Learn thou a lesson from this and flog thy hand with mustard.
.

Originally posted by Trublbrwing

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by Trublbrwing

 

That's the first reply in this entire thread that makes any sense.
Learn thou a lesson from this and flog thy hand with mustard.
.

so true. silence speaks louder than words.