Russia And China Join Forces And Prepare For War Against The Falling Apart U.S. Can we win this one

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Well Split I think If you read through my posts you will find that I have for the most part been correcting certain historical inaccuracies.

The typical reaction of course was oh your just an American hater ....blah blah blah.

For such a Super-Duper Power you sure are overly sensitive and insecure, one could surmise that you are desperate for the world to believe your stories of invincibility because deep down you know they are hollow threats.

You waffled about FEL for a bit until I directed you to the FACT that the Soviets/Russians have been developing DEW's and Scalar Energetics since the 50's and are years ahead of the US.

You then went back to the 80's Reagan era and proceeded to waffle about Pershing missiles, you haven't been SPECIFIC about anything relating to TODAY 2012/13/14 and how you would defeat the combined forces of Russia/China.

You claim/infer that you had some super-special job related to Technical/Strategic Intelligence..
... yeah right...whatever, pics or It didn't happen, I could just as easily claim to be the Pope.

As soon as you can deliver a scenario that shows how the US could defeat Russia/China in the 21st Century I will be more than happy to get SPECIFIC and prove you wrong.

Cosmic..

Originally posted by Trajan
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

The FEL isn't on ships yet, so you can't use it against ICBMs yet.

Why would Russia and China allow you to get world dominating weaponry?

They won't. They will attack you before it is deployed.

Want me to specify how China/Russia might defeat the US?

1. Launch EMP and thermobaric war heads (Scuds, Iskanders etc) from submarines to knock out a portion of your defenses (the opening doesn't have to be huge. Just enough to force the US to weaken other defenses to reinforce that point. Then they hit somewhere else and so on, so forth) before they unleash their ICBMc (which can hit EVERY US city) with chemical/biological war heads to have an aesthetic effect on the US populations morale and cause mass panic.

2. Use the Iranian, Syrian and N. Koreans to start drawing out US forces. Having them divided between the Mid East (to save Israel) and Asia (to save South Korea) would leave their short term hitting strength greatly reduced. China and N. Korea can then use their ASBMs or send fishing ships packed with explosives (which is how they said they could beat your new Stealth Cruisers). Bang bang, USN in Asia is gone and with it a large portion of the US military projection.

3. Russian forces strike through the Arctic and advance down the Canadian Coast. US Forces will move to counter them and weaken their defenses somewhere else (domestic or abroad) and allow Russian submarines to start precision bombing again and taking out chunks of US defenses.

4. Chinese and North Korean troops talk control of the Korean peninsula, China begins a massive bombing campaign of Taiwan and whatever other countries are vulnerable/resource rich.

5. The US will be forced to withdraw from the International battle zones to bulk up their domestic defenses. This leaves their allies out to hang under Chinese, Russian, Iranian, Pakistani, Syrian, Venezuelan, Iraqi (look up the Kingdom of Iraq. Both Iraq and Syria want unity) and Korean dominance. This weakens US power grips in the Mid East and Asia.

6. Europe will militarize to attack Russia and will be met with an iron fist. They will be forced to fight a static war against Russian forces.

7. War drags on and Europe is forced to settle for peace.

8. The US steps up its retaliation campaigns and China utilizes its massive trade fleets as military assets and equips them with SSMs (ship-to-ship missiles) and sends them over the Pacific to obliterate the US' West Coast.

1. Wouldn't happen, the Russian and Chinese subs wouldn't even be able to get near the U.S., but would be detected way before hand and sunk due to loud they are on Sonar. If Russia/China attacked us with Chemical/Bio missiles, we'ed nuke them because the U.S. govt. views any WMD attack on America by a State actor as requiring a nuclear counterattack.
2. We could use Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jhordan, Turkey, and Israel the rest of the gulf states to strike Iran, and provide support to the Syrian Rebels, ditto for the ROK, ROC, Japan, and thailand for counterattacking the DPRK. We wouldn't have to signifigantly reinforce our forces in the ME or east Asia. And, our navy knows how to deal with small minisubs and suicide bomber fishing boats, so those wouldn't be as much of a threat as you say.
3. Russia and China do not have the force projection capabilities to move 70,000 VDV/Naval infantry and 15,000 Chinese Marines into Canada. They could use civilian freighters to attack the U.S., but those don't have the ability to launch amphibious operations, but would have to attack a handful of easily defensible ports.
4. China and NK have little to no chance of actually taking the ROK, but would be held at the 38'th parallel. Their soldiers have numbers as their only advantage. The U.S. and co. have technological, training and experience advantages. You, like many people seem to hold the simplistic view that numbers beat all. Taiwan's Air Force/The U.S. naval airforces would DESTROY the Chinese/Russian Air forces, which have no active fifth gen aircraft, just experimental ones, and rely heavily on highly outdated third gen aircraft.
5.Venezuala would swarmed by Columbia and Brazil, I have already covered NK/IRAN/Syria, and Pakistan would stay neutral.
6. Russia's military is a decrepit joke, whose active forces would be outnumbered by NATO, sans America, by two to one. Russia's reserves would be more numerous, but armed with old fifties/fourties tech. Europe would not attack Russia, but instead be attacked by Russia and be able to force at least a stalemate, which would be preferable to an occupation of Russia.
7. Russia sues for peace, or collapses into Civil War.
8. The U.S. stealth bomber/drone fleat would whipeout any chinese trade ships while they are being upgraded to cary missiles.

reply to post by Antonio1


Trajan, I would also like to ask why you seem to think that the U.S. would suffer heavy losses from a technologically inferior force with no combat experience and poor training, but Russia and China, who are two generations behind us militarily and on generation behind Europe, would take no losses. You clearly have little to no understanding of strategic thinking and have only made a very simplistic, overly pessimistic, and unrealistic prediction of how war would occur between the U.S. and China/Russia. At the same time, you seem to think that North Korea and Iran could beat their neighbors, when they could easily be forced back into their own teritories within a few months if they attacked their neighbors. You also make the point that an attack on America's allies would stretch thin the American military, but that is a two way street. China/Russia would have to support their allies, and thus be stretched just as thin as American forces when their allies are counterattacked by America's allies. You also have greatly overestimated Chinese and Russian Force Projection abilities, while greatly underestimating American force projection capabilities. Furthermore, you greatly overestimate the efficacy of Chinese/Russian arms. Although China/Russia and their allies have some good weapons, most of their weaponry is severly outdated and inferior to U.S./European weaponry. This assertion has been proven by the thourogh thrasing Iraqi forces suffered during both Gulf Wars. Need I remind you that Iraq was armed with some of the best weaponry china and russia could produce? You clearly have less than an amateurs understanding of this subject. I also wouuld like to remind you that the U.S. and co. would not have to occupy China and Russia, just defeat their invasions of neighboring countries, and then surround their borders and use our far superior technology to cause them unacceptable losses. We would not have to invade Russia or China and thus would not have to occupy those countries or fight an insurgency, the same being true for those to countries allied to China/Russia.

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

Well Split I think If you read through my posts you will find that I have for the most part been correcting certain historical inaccuracies.

The typical reaction of course was oh your just an American hater ....blah blah blah.

For such a Super-Duper Power you sure are overly sensitive and insecure, one could surmise that you are desperate for the world to believe your stories of invincibility because deep down you know they are hollow threats.

You waffled about FEL for a bit until I directed you to the FACT that the Soviets/Russians have been developing DEW's and Scalar Energetics since the 50's and are years ahead of the US.

You then went back to the 80's Reagan era and proceeded to waffle about Pershing missiles, you haven't been SPECIFIC about anything relating to TODAY 2012/13/14 and how you would defeat the combined forces of Russia/China.

You claim/infer that you had some super-special job related to Technical/Strategic Intelligence..

... yeah right...whatever, pics or It didn't happen, I could just as easily claim to be the Pope.

As soon as you can deliver a scenario that shows how the US could defeat Russia/China in the 21st Century I will be more than happy to get SPECIFIC and prove you wrong.

Cosmic..

It seems that you are the one who is having your historical innacuricies corrected.

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

Well Split I think If you read through my posts you will find that I have for the most part been correcting certain historical inaccuracies.

The typical reaction of course was oh your just an American hater ....blah blah blah.

For such a Super-Duper Power you sure are overly sensitive and insecure, one could surmise that you are desperate for the world to believe your stories of invincibility because deep down you know they are hollow threats.

You waffled about FEL for a bit until I directed you to the FACT that the Soviets/Russians have been developing DEW's and Scalar Energetics since the 50's and are years ahead of the US.

You then went back to the 80's Reagan era and proceeded to waffle about Pershing missiles, you haven't been SPECIFIC about anything relating to TODAY 2012/13/14 and how you would defeat the combined forces of Russia/China.

You claim/infer that you had some super-special job related to Technical/Strategic Intelligence..

... yeah right...whatever, pics or It didn't happen, I could just as easily claim to be the Pope.

As soon as you can deliver a scenario that shows how the US could defeat Russia/China in the 21st Century I will be more than happy to get SPECIFIC and prove you wrong.

Cosmic..

Cosmic, NO ONE even those who work in the Industry knows the full extent of this technology and others, well maybe not No One... but No One who will be posting about it on ats

Split is particularly in a state of rapture in regards to FEL which is real, I for reasons of my own which i wont even get into am 100% convinced the new military shuttle is carrying an EMP payload which is for all intents and purposes a country buster, more than one scientist has theorized what can be done with control of cell phones and cell phone towers, we know we have multiple conventional anti missile systems at work land, sea and air in fact. The new rail gun is sitting out in the Persian Gulf right now as we speak

But above all else, the USA has been working on post Nuclear Super weapons since the 50's, Our Black budget is larger than any single nations entire budget, we out man and out gun the 2 nd closest nation by a wide margin and we SPEND to develop these toys.

The reality is, whatever China started working on or Russia we go that step further and develop

Can anyone prove... or state exactly what we have NO

But you can see in regards to the kind of missiles Russia and China are trying to develop and deploy they are concerned about being able to hit us and they know more than we do and likely can still only guess.

We spend a lot, a lot , a lot of money developing new toys, much is kept classified

I believe we wouldn't have the balls we have had lately if our boys weren't pretty darn sure we could stop most incoming Icbms even in the event of a massive strike or at least are close to being able to do so.

I look at that black budget and wonder

could be anything

whatever it is it's a lot more than anyone else has. and for the number of years we have been doing it without pause, my instinct says god help anyone who even tries to attack us for real.
.

reply to post by Trajan

Thank You for providing a Specific Formula or Plan as to how you believe the U.S. could be at the very least Hit Hard. But.....Here is where your War Plans Break Down. I will respond Point by Point as to your numbers.

1. Although the most Modern of Russian Subs no longer have to SURFACE TO LAUNCH but many of their Older Models must surface first. This drastically reduces the surviveability of Russian Subs and Jane's has come out with a Tech. issue of the Typhoon Class Russian Sub which is the Worlds Largest. Jane's states that there is a 65% possibility that Underwater Launching of SLBM's or Sub Launched Ballistic Missiles may cause supposedly repaired STRESS FRACTURES of the bottom of the Missile Tube which uses Highly Compressed air to form a bubble around the SLBM which allows it to shoot to the surface and then ignite...a technique first developed by the U.S....has caused Flooding in past tests and that repair techniques were not adequate to solve this problem thus a Typhoon may only launch one quarter of it's missiles before possibly sinking from ruptures at the bottom of these launch tubes. The rest of the once Soviet Sub Nuclear Deterrent is too old and would be and is tracked by U.S. Attack Subs and sunk. Plus any attempt at targeting of U.S. Cities is HIGHLY UNLIKELY given the fact that this makes no Military Sense as to do this would bring an all out Response by U.S. Strategic Nuclear Forces as well as various Secret Weapons the U.S. has in it's tool chest. The Nuclear attack you describe would cause the U.S. to target Russian Cities and the U.S. can do this with Nuclear Missiles as well as with Direct Energy Weapons. U.S. Nuclear Missiles of both Tactical and Strategic in nature have the ability to destroy Russian Nuclear Missiles before they are launched even in the case of a Russian attempt at a First Strike. This is due to several reasons. The U.S. is unmatched in it's ability to monitor Russian Nuclear Forces where ever they may be...in Subs...on Mobile Land Missile Launchers...aboard Ships...in Silos...at Air Fields...and because the U.S. has every Ocean on the Planet dotted with SENSORS as well as Deep Ground and Ocean Penetrating Radar...Satellite Magnetometers and Satellite Gamma Ray and Neutron Decay Sensors. U.S. SPACE COMMAND KNOWS where every Russian Sub and Surface ship is even before the Russian High Command Does!
The SOund SUrveillance System (SOSUS) provides deep-water long-range detection capability. SOSUS enjoyed tremendous success during the Cold War tracking submarines by their faint acoustic signals. SOSUS consists of high-gain long fixed arrays in the deep ocean basins
BEAM accesses form beams from multiple hydrophone arrays trained on the seafloor to provide signal gain obtained through beam forming.
PHONE accesses individual hydrophones from arrays throughout the oceans provides omni-directional coverage. So as far as a Russian Sneak Attack...FORGET ABOUT IT! Every Russian Sub is shadowed by a U.S. Attack Sub as we are the BEST IN THE GAME...at this kind of Warfare. ANY ATTEMPT to Launch a Missile would be known of in advance as the Various Russian Subs each have a specific Launch Depth or have to surface and go through a Pre-Launch Series of MECHANICAL EVENTS which U.S. Navy Subs have identified by Computer and say a Los Angeles Class Attack Sub which are behind EVERY RUSSIAN BOOMER from when they leave port to when they return...Computer Processed Passive Sonar would identify these sounds and take into consideration where the Russian Sub is as well as depth and what Class of Sub and compare that Russian Class Subs Nuclear Missiles RANGE to all the other factors and KNOW IF IT IS GOING TO LAUNCH! One Missile might be launched but that is it! The U.S. Sub would communicate via ULF Broadcasts to all other U.S. Subs and to command and in this even of a single launch...U.S. Subs become AUTONOMOUS and would sink every Boomer they trail. The Missile that was launched could be shot down by an SM-3 ABM or several other ABM's the U.S. has as well as the two Fully Active FEL's that are Land Based as well as a current unknown number at sea as these are COVERT. The Specialized Mirrored Satellite System is only Partially Deployed but that would be enough for a long range shot.

But even without an FEL or MEB...the U.S. has SM-3's aboard EVERY CRUISER IN THE FLEET...and there are MULTIPLE SQUADRONS of F-15's converted to carry an Air Launched AMB which has an even Greater Range than the SM-3.

The premise for your number 1 was the in close use of Russian Subs to launch Nuclear Missiles or Biologicals...also very Highly Unlikely...at U.S. Cities. First of all this makes no sense as Sub Launched Missiles are designed to take out another countries Nuclear Capabilities and Large City Destroyers are Strategic Missiles as Subs carry Tactical Missiles. SI

reply to post by Trajan

My reply for #2...Number two would seem to be a tactic that would be used before number one as number one involves the attempted NUKING of U.S. Cities with the WRONG KIND OF MISSILE! If Number one occurred than the Russians can Kiss their Sub Force GOODBYE!

Number 2 is a Tactic that could cause some confusion and it also could be used as a way to HIDE other actions as the ONLY WAY that China and Russia would have even the REMOTEST of chances is to get the U.S. looking in the wrong direction. Unfortunately for North Korea, Syria and China....we could have our U.S. Naval Carrier Groups simply wait for them to try to attack. The BEST WAY for North Korea to do this is start an Invasion of South Korea.

Problem for the North Koreans is that the U.S. Air Force would OBLITERATE NORTH KOREA. Syria is not even worth a Bullet.

Number 3...Forget about this also...the Russian Military is in such a bad state that they have ZERO CAPABILITY of Invading through Alaska or Canada. Again...the U.S. Air Force would OBLITERATE THEM....they can't provide a small contingent of their own Soldiers sent to Bosnia with Food and Water as the Russians had TO BEG FOR WATER from the Britts. And you believe they can supply an Invading Army crossing Arctic Zones with ANYTHING!? LOL! Result...they FREEZE TO DEATH!

Number 4...China and North Korea attempt this...they get NUKED! End of North Korea and any Chinese helping them in either the North or South.

Number 5...Not even POSSIBLE as U.S. Navy Carrier Groups and subs would sink any Troop Carriers attempting to cross Atlantic or Pacific. No other Country posses the capability of complete and total ceasing of any and all shipping of any kind.

Number 6 and 7...NATO would absolutely KICK RUSSIA'S ASS! You can Google this scenario all night and check every major international Defense think Tank or Jane's or a multitude of analysts. They will all say the same thing...Russia's Military is 80% Not Battle Ready and is so decayed that even the 20% of Russian Military Hardware that DOES WORK...does not have enough spare parts or capability to supply an invasion.

Number 8...FANTASY! China has ZERO ability to Force Project. U.S. Pacific Fleet is the Worlds Largest Naval Military in existence with capabilities of such a scale that by it's own...it could Destroy EVERY SHIP, SUB OR ANY OTHER OCEAN GOING SUPPLY SHIP....with very little effort.

Split Infinity

reply to post by Cosmic4life

OK...Fairs...Fair.

The U.S. would defeat both China and Russia easily. I will start with China. China has a HUGE number of Soldiers but an inability to Force Project them...thus...they are just TARGETS. Say instead of talking about how the U.S. would react to an action by China...the U.S. instead performs a First Strike.

This would happen as OHIO CLASS Nuclear Powered SLBM Launching Subs attach the Maximum number of MIRVS that can be carried by ONE of 24 Trident D-5 Missiles. The Trident D-5 can carry up to 12 Nuclear warheads per Missile and there are 24 Trident D-5 Missiles in an OHIO CLASS SUB....one of the quietest subs in the World.
The Warheads can carry a Nuclear Payload up to 475 Kiloton Thermonuclear Yield. They are almost perfect in accuracy and have a range of 7000 miles each. Thus each OHIO CLASS SUB could creep up close to Chinese Shores and ONE SUB CAN LAUNCH 288 Thermonuclear Warheads each traveling at a speed of 13,422 miles Per Hour with a range great enough to Hit any target in China or Russia for that matter.

These Missiles are designed specifically to Destroy another Counties Nuclear Force before that country has any time to react as the SUB is almost impossible to track and get get in close to shore and Launch these SLBM's that travel at such a High Rate of Speed and Accuracy that the Target Country's entire Nuclear Deterrent will be destroyed before that country has any time to react as the Trident D-5 MIRVED Warheads will strike their Targets in less time than it takes the target Country to even alert it's Nuclear Forces and faster than the Target Country to be able to launch their Nukes or have time for their Nuclear Capable Aircraft to get in the air.

The U.S. Navy has 14 OHIO CLASS SUBS with over 4000 MIRVED Nuclear Warheads. These are more than enough and capable of destroying every Nuclear Missile and Bomber Base in Both China and Russia before they get a chance to Launch.

This reality is just one Leg of the U.S. Nuclear Triad and as such...the U.S. is fully capable of rendering China and Russia unable to counter attack. Split Infinity

reply to post by Cosmic4life


So I went ahead an looked up your scalars and thus come to a conclusion.
DEWs have already been worked on by the US Gov, hench our list of multi diverse
Laser platforms.
If Nikola Tesla was the intial discoverer of Scalar Electromagnetics, then the US
has an idea of what this is.
Russia's plan on having DEWs Scalar systesm online as far back as 1980...so where
are they???
I understand they had been working on these weapons in a Program codename
"Fer-de-Lance" in other words russian words, Energetics. Basicaly its just a
conventional DEW, Exotic, but normal weapons using energy or mass traveling
through space to impact a target.
I do admit that russians lead the field in explosive welding, titanium forming and
non-linear mathematics, but sorely lag behind in Computers, Computer software an
miniaturization, etc.
You should prolly go back to reading Lt. Col T.E. Bearden, odd considering that
his books were all around the 80s, at about the same time the soviets had the
SUPER WEAPONS at there hands, why have'nt they struck now? whats the wait?
whatever the case may be, I think it holds no water. non what so ever.
-BUT-
FEL - Boeing is currently developing a Ship-borne FEL. The system would be
multi-purpose, capable of radar/signal detection an nocking out ICBMs out of
the sky with the flip of a switch. The system can run off the ships nuclear reactors,
which in itself would be ideal as recharging would be brief. Different task would
require different outputs of power, which help in reduction of wasted energy.
A weaponized laser at minimal requires about a 100 kilowatts, Of course the goal
being a Megawatt laser would truly be monumental. Its all about fitting it on a ship
which is a very real outcome in 2-3 years, with some many X amout of years to
equip all navy ships with the upgrades, not including whats going to be a new
naval task force built from the ground up, complete new design an outfitted with
the latest in breakthroughs.
The system is needed as it will transform naval warfare in the next decade by
providing an ultra-precise, speed of light capability and unlimited magazine depth
to defend ships against new challenging threats like hyper velocity cruise missiles.
Perfect for the navys future all-electric ship architecture.
Been worked on since the early 1980s.
--So yes I have considered the prospects in designs and have decided to go with the
FEL, That weapon in our arsenal would be used to easily dispatch both countries at
once. That is assuming the scenario of having both china an russia attack at once.

reply to post by Arnie123

Arnie...the Soviet Union spent much time and money developing Particle Beam Weapons which is basically what you were just talking about. The U.S. decided that Particle Beams were too Dangerous to operate at their current level of tech. Russian Designed Particle Beam Weapons have a tendency to Irradiate the people using it.

The U.S. poured it resources into Laser Weapons. Early designs tended to be effected by atmosphere and even water vapor was an issue as it would reflect the beam. Then the U.S. decided a more powerful beam might avoid these issues...it didn't to the extent needed.

Then the U.S. went solid state and this helped but it still wasn't what was fully needed to achieve the weapons purpose.

Finally...the U.S. designed a Laser that would use a Beam that was partially comprised of Electrons in a Super Excited state...THIS WAS THE KEY. The Laser Beam acted very much like a Particle Beam in that it could cut right through atmospheric conditions.

This was why the Soviets had chosen to work on a Particle Beam as they knew it would be able to cut through the Atmosphere but they were not able to solve a Particle Beams inherent issues such as the High Radiation as well as it not having the Flexibility of use such as being able to use a Satellite reflection system for targeting as well as easily being able to split the beam.

As the Free Electron Laser was developed the U.S. soon realized the enormous potential of such a weapon and with the advent of Solid State Lasers and being able to use a Nuclear Power Source...plans for a Massive FEL system began to arise. Split Infinity

reply to post by Trajan

One thing about the U.S. Military...if it sees something that works...it will incorporate it into it's own. Not many other Military's will do this but we do.

The Strength in this is that we admit there is always something more to learn. This is also why if you ever are driving down the E.T. Highway near Groom Lake...you might see a MiG or a Suk flying about as we test everything from all sides.

But all the training in the world does little good when a Couple U.S. Special Forces can call in an A-10 or a B-52 circling an area in support of our Guys. And as far as calling in artillery...they can drop it in on a Dime!

And if you have seen some specialty groups training...you would soon realize that because of our numbers...there are many groups of many levels of training. Split Infinity

Originally posted by Antonio1

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

Well Split I think If you read through my posts you will find that I have for the most part been correcting certain historical inaccuracies.

The typical reaction of course was oh your just an American hater ....blah blah blah.

For such a Super-Duper Power you sure are overly sensitive and insecure, one could surmise that you are desperate for the world to believe your stories of invincibility because deep down you know they are hollow threats.

You waffled about FEL for a bit until I directed you to the FACT that the Soviets/Russians have been developing DEW's and Scalar Energetics since the 50's and are years ahead of the US.

You then went back to the 80's Reagan era and proceeded to waffle about Pershing missiles, you haven't been SPECIFIC about anything relating to TODAY 2012/13/14 and how you would defeat the combined forces of Russia/China.

You claim/infer that you had some super-special job related to Technical/Strategic Intelligence..

... yeah right...whatever, pics or It didn't happen, I could just as easily claim to be the Pope.

As soon as you can deliver a scenario that shows how the US could defeat Russia/China in the 21st Century I will be more than happy to get SPECIFIC and prove you wrong.

Cosmic..

It seems that you are the one who is having your historical innacuricies corrected.

Only to you Antonio...care to back-up that throw away statement with some evidence ???

And coming from a poster who is semi-literate and can't even spell inaccuracies your opinions don't hold any sway with me.

Try staying on topic instead of constantly sniping at me because I happen to hold a different world view to the American-centric one you do ... deal with it or go away.

Cosmic..

reply to post by Cosmic4life

As soon as you can deliver a scenario that shows how the US could defeat Russia/China in the 21st Century I will be more than happy to get SPECIFIC and prove you wrong.

I'm rather curious to know how you think Russia/China would defeat the USA.

You seem to be quite unrealistic in your assessment.

Originally posted by penninja

Cosmic, NO ONE even those who work in the Industry knows the full extent of this technology and others, well maybe not No One... but No One who will be posting about it on ats

Split is particularly in a state of rapture in regards to FEL which is real, I for reasons of my own which i wont even get into am 100% convinced the new military shuttle is carrying an EMP payload which is for all intents and purposes a country buster, more than one scientist has theorized what can be done with control of cell phones and cell phone towers, we know we have multiple conventional anti missile systems at work land, sea and air in fact. The new rail gun is sitting out in the Persian Gulf right now as we speak

But above all else, the USA has been working on post Nuclear Super weapons since the 50's, Our Black budget is larger than any single nations entire budget, we out man and out gun the 2 nd closest nation by a wide margin and we SPEND to develop these toys.

The reality is, whatever China started working on or Russia we go that step further and develop

Can anyone prove... or state exactly what we have NO

But you can see in regards to the kind of missiles Russia and China are trying to develop and deploy they are concerned about being able to hit us and they know more than we do and likely can still only guess.

We spend a lot, a lot , a lot of money developing new toys, much is kept classified

I believe we wouldn't have the balls we have had lately if our boys weren't pretty darn sure we could stop most incoming Icbms even in the event of a massive strike or at least are close to being able to do so.

I look at that black budget and wonder

could be anything

whatever it is it's a lot more than anyone else has. and for the number of years we have been doing it without pause, my instinct says god help anyone who even tries to attack us for real.
.

Indeed Penninja as you say...No-one knows the full extent of US/Russian/Chinese development or even the UK for that matter....I happen to know that these Crop Circles for example are formed with a Satellite based Microwave system yet nobody is admitting to ownership of such devices.

We have a situation in our current world where certain things are put on show as a basic deterrent, while other technologies are hinted at, and still others are researched and developed in strictest secrecy.

It's a game of Cat and Mouse in which the doctrine of MAD still has value, nukes are not the only issue, we still have Chemical and Biological weaponry out there that does not necessarily have to be delivered by a Missile.

On top of that we have the Microwave technology that I just mentioned, this insidious technology has the ability to alter the mind state of entire nations, alter emotions or even just fry everything in it's path, HAARP is not the only Ionospheric heater in the world today, the Russians have them, the Chinese have them, there is even a very large one in Norway run by the Europeans.

Directed Energy Weapons, well pretty much everybody has them, Free Electron Lasers, Chemical Lasers and Particle Beams have been and still are extensively researched by all parties.

Scalar weaponry has Global reach and only requires a few mobile transmitters, I don't think any Nation has the means to block Scalar waves and as yet there is no treaty on such weapons and those Nations that in all likely do possess it are not admitting to it, It is a Technology that is hinted at and not currently displayed as a deterrent.

As Rumsfeld so elegantly put it..We have known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns, any strategist has to accept these facts and plan accordingly, It is not acceptable and foolish to write off potential adversaries as not being Technologically up to speed...that is a dangerous and potentially suicidal assumption.

As to an attack on the US I would agree that it is highly unlikely due to the inevitable retaliation....but the same can be said if we flip that situation around and consider an attack by the US on Russia/China, the initial salvos may or may not be successful but the retaliation would large and sustained, the US, Russia and China would all be ruined and uninhabitable for centuries.

Hence my first post....No you would lose...maybe i should've added ... and so would they, any large scale conflict between the US, Russia and China will be ruinous for all, it really is a no-win situation, and as such we should all consider Humility Humbleness and Diplomacy.

The only real scenario that may happen are skirmishes for control of certain areas like the South-China sea Oil deposits, the Carter Doctrine in the Middle East no longer counts as Saudi Arabia itself will become a net IMPORTER of Oil by 2030.

Cosmic..

Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandy
reply to post by Cosmic4life

 

As soon as you can deliver a scenario that shows how the US could defeat Russia/China in the 21st Century I will be more than happy to get SPECIFIC and prove you wrong.

I'm rather curious to know how you think Russia/China would defeat the USA.

You seem to be quite unrealistic in your assessment.

The question was ...Russia And China Join Forces And Prepare For War Against The Falling Apart U.S. Can we win this one.

My reply was and is no you can't.

Unless you think the US, Russia and China all looking like a scene from Fallout 3 is winning.

It's a no-win scenario, at no point in any of my posts have I stated that that Russia/China would defeat the US, I have merely stated that the US would not win.

Until somebody shows me how the US could ever win such a scenario my opinion remains unchanged.

Cosmic..

reply to post by Cosmic4life

Unless you think the US, Russia and China all looking like a scene from Fallout 3 is winning.

War is always destructive. Victory is secured to those who lose the less.

We didn't have any damage done to the American territory because the war wasn't in the America's continents. It was in Europe, Africa and the Pacific region. The only damage done was to Pearl Harbor, and that was minor when compared to the full scale of WWII.

Not only that, but Stalin actually gave permission to "burn the land", so that the german forces didn't have anything to eat or supply them-selfs. With that, a lot of the Soviet Union was vaporized by fire. Self-inflicted fire.

And what about what happened to Great Britain? London was obliterated. If you research a bit the efforts made by the Royal Fire Department you will find true stories of heroism, while battling the seemingly never ending destruction.

You can add to those examples the case of France, Poland and even Germany itself.

All those territories were severely damaged by the war.

War is always destructive.

It's a no-win scenario, at no point in any of my posts have I stated that that Russia/China would defeat the US, I have merely stated that the US would not win.

That doesn't happen in the real world. Someone always comes on top, and that someone might just be the country or community who has lost less than the other side.

You are also assuming that the Russians and Chinese would never give up, something similar to what was feared about the Japanese Imperial force. That can change very fast with the right set of weaponry. A development art the United States has well mastered.

Until somebody shows me how the US could ever win such a scenario my opinion remains unchanged.

World War II: Axis forces vs Allied forces.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Cosmic4life

 

OK...Fairs...Fair.

The U.S. would defeat both China and Russia easily. I will start with China. China has a HUGE number of Soldiers but an inability to Force Project them...thus...they are just TARGETS. Say instead of talking about how the U.S. would react to an action by China...the U.S. instead performs a First Strike.

This would happen as OHIO CLASS Nuclear Powered SLBM Launching Subs attach the Maximum number of MIRVS that can be carried by ONE of 24 Trident D-5 Missiles. The Trident D-5 can carry up to 12 Nuclear warheads per Missile and there are 24 Trident D-5 Missiles in an OHIO CLASS SUB....one of the quietest subs in the World.
The Warheads can carry a Nuclear Payload up to 475 Kiloton Thermonuclear Yield. They are almost perfect in accuracy and have a range of 7000 miles each. Thus each OHIO CLASS SUB could creep up close to Chinese Shores and ONE SUB CAN LAUNCH 288 Thermonuclear Warheads each traveling at a speed of 13,422 miles Per Hour with a range great enough to Hit any target in China or Russia for that matter.

These Missiles are designed specifically to Destroy another Counties Nuclear Force before that country has any time to react as the SUB is almost impossible to track and get get in close to shore and Launch these SLBM's that travel at such a High Rate of Speed and Accuracy that the Target Country's entire Nuclear Deterrent will be destroyed before that country has any time to react as the Trident D-5 MIRVED Warheads will strike their Targets in less time than it takes the target Country to even alert it's Nuclear Forces and faster than the Target Country to be able to launch their Nukes or have time for their Nuclear Capable Aircraft to get in the air.

The U.S. Navy has 14 OHIO CLASS SUBS with over 4000 MIRVED Nuclear Warheads. These are more than enough and capable of destroying every Nuclear Missile and Bomber Base in Both China and Russia before they get a chance to Launch.

This reality is just one Leg of the U.S. Nuclear Triad and as such...the U.S. is fully capable of rendering China and Russia unable to counter attack. Split Infinity

You seem to be forgetting that the Russians have satellite systems for detecting ICBM launches, on top of that you haven't factored in Russian Orbital interceptors and Earth bound S-400 SAM's which are ABM capable, not to mention the fact that S-500 is now in development.

You also fail to grasp that recently Russian Subs have been quietly sailing around the Gulf of Mexico completely undetected for weeks and any pre-emptive strike would result in an immediate counterstrike.

And lastly forget looking for Typhoon boomers, the Russians will be fielding the new Borei Class Boomers, very quiet with all the latest systems.
The original Borei Class has now been updated to Borei 2 with more Missile tubes (20 in total) and additional system upgrades.
These Boomers will be carrying either Sineva, Layner or Bulava SLBM's each capable of avoiding Anti-Ballistic Missiles.

Looking forward to hearing how the US is going to nullify these systems.

Cosmic..

Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandy
reply to post by Cosmic4life

 

Unless you think the US, Russia and China all looking like a scene from Fallout 3 is winning.

War is always destructive. Victory is secured to those who lose the less.

We didn't have any damage done to the American territory because the war wasn't in the America's continents. It was in Europe, Africa and the Pacific region. The only damage done was to Pearl Harbor, and that was minor when compared to the full scale of WWII.

Not only that, but Stalin actually gave permission to "burn the land", so that the german forces didn't have anything to eat or supply them-selfs. With that, a lot of the Soviet Union was vaporized by fire. Self-inflicted fire.

And what about what happened to Great Britain? London was obliterated. If you research a bit the efforts made by the Royal Fire Department you will find true stories of heroism, while battling the seemingly never ending destruction.

You can add to those examples the case of France, Poland and even Germany itself.

All those territories were severely damaged by the war.

War is always destructive.

It's a no-win scenario, at no point in any of my posts have I stated that that Russia/China would defeat the US, I have merely stated that the US would not win.

That doesn't happen in the real world. Someone always comes on top, and that someone might just be the country or community who has lost less than the other side.

You are also assuming that the Russians and Chinese would never give up, something similar to what was feared about the Japanese Imperial force. That can change very fast with the right set of weaponry. A development art the United States has well mastered.

Until somebody shows me how the US could ever win such a scenario my opinion remains unchanged.

World War II: Axis forces vs Allied forces.

edit on 7-9-2012 by GarrusVasNormandy because: forgot to mention the Pacific

I know fully well the level of destruction sustained all across Europe and here in the UK, I do live here after all, I also know it took decades to repair the damage.

What is different between then and now is the level of destruction that can be unleashed the moment some idiot gets a big idea.

Your assuming that the US will not become an Irradiated pile of Ash along with Russia and China.

Just where on Earth do you intend to live after this thankfully fictional conflagration ?

Cosmic..

reply to post by Cosmic4life

I know fully well the level of destruction sustained all across Europe and here in the UK, I do live here after all, I also know it took decades to repair the damage.

Yes, you seem to claim several times that you know more than everyone else.

What is different between then and now is the level of destruction that can be unleashed the moment some idiot gets a big idea.

Actually, you are referring to structural damage.

In medieval wars, for instance, whole cities and even nations were deprived of valuable resources, or even water. Those raids could end up in whole settlements being exterminated.

You should not confuse scale with literal numbers. While the scale of the destruction has increased, so did the population, number of cities and even the size of military forces.

Your assuming that the US will not become an Irradiated pile of Ash along with Russia and China.

You're assuming that it will. It's as wrong as assuming it won't.

The U.S. is the only country with an actual global missile defense system. The news you hear about the Missile Shield relate to the wish from the American Government to push that defense system further the ex-Soviet territories, and further into the Pacific.

By considering the Missile Defense System alone, it's China and Russia who seem to be cornered. All your arguments align with the possibilities of nuclear war, but you don't mention the importance of having a defense system. And in that field, the U.S. and it's allies are simply dominating the other side.

It would be nearly impossible for the Russians or Chinese to launch a single nuke from their territory and hit the U.S. continental area, without them being warned several minutes or hours prior to the attack.

To aid that, the U.S. has a plan to almost every single nuclear scenario that you can make up. And bare in mind that neither you, nor me, know the full extent of the nuclear functional arsenals.

Just where on Earth do you intend to live after this thankfully fictional conflagration ?

Again, you assume that nuclear is inevitable.

I tend to believe that although nuclear attacks are possible, they will only be made by rogue states, like Iran or some other country like that. A wild card, if you wish.

Personally, I do not believe that either Russia or the U.S. would dare to use nuclear weapons. Both have agreed several times that's not the path to go. If such a conflict arises between the two, then it will provably go back to conventional all-out war, like in WW2.

China is, quite simply, unable to strike outside it's borders. At the moment, and in the next 5 to 10 years, at least.

reply to post by Cosmic4life


Agreed that this is very unlikely Cosmic, I think we all actually agree on that.

But your throwing China and Russia up into the "Unknown" class along with Russia alongside the USA as if, if we were going to place bets the odds are equal.

in 1986, Deng Xiao Peng founded Program 863 to attempt to develop post nuclear weapons

6 years later the soviet union collapsed, one thing that is certain is that when split is quoting Janes he is correct and guesstimates say as much s 80% of Russia's arsenal is in a fair state of disarray

so lets be realistic

if we were going to start placing odds like the race track on which nation has the super dupers in quantity and capacity

A: The Chinese who didn't get started until 1984, who's entire military budget is lower than the US Black budget, who is only over the last handful of years capable with the infrastructure to actual build anything like a super collides or anything else...

B: Russia who had to suspend nearly everything for a decade on the high technology end, who also has a military budget less than our Black budget, who's military is for all intents and purposes in serious need of repair A nation that can't even truly safe guard the nukes it has anymore

C: America a Trillion a year Juggernaut with hundreds of billions invested in "secret" research every year between various agencies plus a corporate structure in which 80% of it's CEO's are ex military at any given time and those companies all do research on a regular basis and dominate the global economy?

The nation which on a daily basis seems to be deploying technologies that honestly you can SAY Russia says it did work in or China but we offer proof of? You talk about Scalar... they talk about scalar, I have photos of haarp, they used to talk about Rail guns we have one sitting in the gulf, they talk about lasers we have mounted and used them on aircraft

Today there is a thread with a robotic cheetah that runs 18 mph... and video of it, there are photos of working models of invisibility cloaks and super soldier outfits that allow super strength

Right now... there is a military shuttle passing over THEIR territory, not them, for the last 20 years our launches of "military" cargo "secret" whatever... out ran Russia's 20-1 and yeah, we know when they launch

So really

Doing the odds... Russia 12-1, China 20-1 America 2-1

If it came down to it and we all had to place bets... America

Not that a long shot never wins the Kentucky Derby but if it's the Year of Secretariat anything else is a fools bet...