Animals Are As With-it as Humans (Animals Are Conscious)

Originally posted by Unity_99
reply to post by Ophiuchus 13

 

We need more than vegetable husks that taste like meat or fish.

I was talking about animal husk free of neuron transmitters that would carry pain. In essence you would have what is found in second stages of the slaughter house where the meat is hanging free of its innards my friend.

Originally posted by Unity_99
And that is the way the NAZI's and Monsanto and the elite want to absolutely destroy our lives and health.

You must keep in mind Unity_99 much of the food present TODAY is not original even if not direct influenced from sprays the SOIL is treated overtime as the roots transfer whats in the air from water /dewdrops into the soil. So in essence most food eaten today is modified. If compared to say 1000 years back. Now I know or heard of some trying to alter food for control or financial gain ect. but I dont have the facts enough to call them on it. I do however feel that if the meats were made from husk the animal life would have more balance instead of a cow standing in line listening to another cow get slaughtered and having to accept that it for them. There does lie a bit of KARMA in there when considering others feeding off of human like a hungry nephilem looking for a meal like human going to MC Donald's.

Originally posted by Unity_99
The way our grandparents lived here, eating Bone Marrow soup, liver, having raw whole milk and butters is absolutely essential to TEETH, BONES, and Immune System and in fact some of these fatty soluable vitamins that are found therein are known cancer cures as well.

And the omega fatty fish oil is responsible for brain growth.

I totally understand that but the thing is go further back and if correct the original diet of PRE man should of been more veggie based bug based like many other APES. The blood lust if correct makes a stronger being to DO MORE WORK, so of course you feed them flesh to make them better workers hunters ect. I just feel the original human / animal body was not designed for flesh intake like seen today. this may be why many meds are needed to make up for the adjusted gi track.

Originally posted by Unity_99
And the vegan alternatives are not the same thing, they can afford health for individuals but not long term for species.

And, they do have the science to actually do the right thing now, provide the real food we need, not poisoned and altered forms of it, but real organic food we need including meat, without the brain and wiring and consciousness, so that we could have animals more like Family and Pets who provide eggs and milk and cheese, and these conditions have to improve so its not crowded and inhumane factories but farms with lots of room and range for them.

Ever think that maybe the less intake the more yourself you become. What I am saying is to YES eat healthy but with less mass or RED meat- less of the more hormone packed meats your BODIES/VESSELS/SUITS may work better due to being lighter in weight, but I get you points Unity_99 and they make sense. But what if the original APE SUITS are flesh free designed causing massive imbalance on EA*RTH now due to humans having to mass produce animal flesh.

LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA
NAMASTE*******

reply to post by DaMod

probably

I pulled this important part from your post.

It means that it is conjecture.
I am certainly not offended if dogs dream. I have owned some good dogs. Some were more intelligent than others. Some were more athletic. Some were better hunting dogs.

I think that sometimes, some people project human qualities onto animals that are not there.

reply to post by butcherguy


Your not going to win this because dogs dream whether you want them to or not.'

That probably was from the article.. It wasn't they "probably" dream... It was what they "probably" dream about..

Big difference

I also noticed you skipped the video... I know this because had you watched it we most likely would not be arguing anymore.

Listen I know you want to maintain that Humans are all knowing god creatures of the animal kingdom and everything else is a mindless machine that relies on not but instinct but maybe you can have an open mind about a creature with the computing power a million times that of the fastest super computer on earth.

animaltracks.today.com...


FATHER & SON?

This priceless moment captured by wildlife photographer Suzi Eszterhas on Kenya's Masai Mara National Reserve had us all "awwing" in the office. After following a pride of lions for three months, Eszterhas snapped these shots of a male lion meeting his son for the first time.

According to Eszterhas, the curious 7-week-old cub and his siblings had never met their dad before, having been kept in a den under the watchful eye of their mom since birth. Only when the cubs became too big and rowdy for Mom to handle alone does she cautiously let them out and introduce them to the rest of the pride, including their father.

"What's cool about this is, because they've been tucked away in the den, taking them out is this dramatic moment," Eszterhas told TODAY.com

The Georgia guidstones message seems to count the animal life as important as man so???


Snake helps frog during hazardous conditions. Dont know what they were thinking but they SEEM CONSCIOUSLY CONNECTED.

Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by butcherguy

 

I'm sorry but ECG doesn't lie..

Dogs dream dude.

Just out of curiosity... why on God's earth would you think they wouldn't dream?

Also tell me why would a sleeping dog full out run in their sleep were they not dreaming?

edit on 27-8-2012 by DaMod because: (no reason given)

Watching a dog and an EEG are two different things, that was what my original post regarding dog dreaming was referring to.

I am not denying that dogs may dream. Is it like a human dream? You say that the research with REM and EEG show that it is, but until you can talk to a dog and have them answer you, you will not know. You know what the traces on the machine mean with a human brain relating to dreams, but how can you relate that to the dog's experience without being able to communicate with it?

reply to post by DaMod
'Probably' referred specifically to what dogs dream about.
Are you telling me that you are privy to what dogs dream about, with certainty?

I did not watch the video, I am working.

What is interesting for me is how much new evidence is coming about animals being concious than we give them credit for. Dolphins and whales show signs of conscious according to the BBC. Also interesting, pidgeons show superstition when eating.

For me, the big thing that this will trigger an appreciation of other animals "code of conduct" or "morals". The morals of an alley cat are completely different to ours but as valid and will map to a completely different set of behaviours.

Valid for the alley cat - that is

reply to post by butcherguy


Well seeing that all a dream is, is the minds way of grasping life situations in order to deal with them in a more effective way once those scenarios are experienced again...

For example.. (and this was part of a human sleep study).. Play a video game you've never played before for a couple of hours, then go to sleep. The next day you will find you are more skilled than you were previously for seemingly no reason.. Well this is because your brain equipped you with the means to play that game more effectively..

I can say with 100% certainty that dogs dream about situations, people, things and activities that they have experienced in their life.. That's the purpose of a dream in the first place.

And to be honest.. I don't even know what I dreamed about last night.... I cannot even begin to explain it because frankly it's like it never happened...

Two days after a young mountain gorilla was killed in a poacher's snare trap in Rwanda, two juvenile gorillas were observed deactivating two similar snares.

It is the first time since African gorilla field research began more than 50 years agothat juvenile gorillas have ever been witnessed destroying snare traps, which are indiscriminately injuring and killing mountain gorillas.

"We knew that gorillas do this, but all of the reported cases in the past were carried out by adult gorillas, mostly silverbacks," Veronica Vecellio of The Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund International wrote on the fund's blog.

"Today, two juveniles and one blackback from Kuryama's group worked together to deactivate two snares, and how they did it demonstrated an impressive cognitive skill."

www.grindtv.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Gotta give them credit

reply to post by smyleegrl


I've been around animals to one degree or another for a better part of my life, both as pets (where they do seem so human-like, don't they?) and as food. I've killed and eaten my fair share of 'em. I've also seen what they can do to each other, and it can be decidedly unpleasant.

Are they conscious? To a degree, maybe. Should we kill and eat them for food? Definitely. I say, when the animals begin treating each other humanely--when the lions lay down with the lambs--then maybe we can talk about not barbecuing the critters

reply to post by StalkerSolent


Well I would have to agree with you to a point.. I'm a hunter and to be honest I'd just be lying to myself were I to stop eating red meat...

I will say though some animals certainly have proven themselves to be extremely intelligent and I believe self aware.. Now they may not be as intelligent as humans but I've known several hunting dogs that would make you wonder...

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by dontreally

 

There's a difference between fawning before animals and crediting them with abilities on par with man - which is insulting to man - and noticing different degrees of sentience. I have long maintained that dogs behave similar to very young children - 3 or 4 years old;s - and it's extremely amusing. But I'm not about to compare a 3 or 4 year old - who is a mere shadow of what an adult human being is capable of - to a full grown human being.

This paragraph was especially well put!

A star on your post.

There sure is a lot of "humans are the best" type of sentiments around this place. Why are we so much better? Humans have diminished the quality of life for almost every other species on this planet. Reminds me of this absurd yet great part in Upright Citizens Brigade tv show, "Humans rule, dolphins can suck it!!"

Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by StalkerSolent

 

Well I would have to agree with you to a point.. I'm a hunter and to be honest I'd just be lying to myself were I to stop eating red meat...

I will say though some animals certainly have proven themselves to be extremely intelligent and I believe self aware.. Now they may not be as intelligent as humans but I've known several hunting dogs that would make you wonder...

Animals may actually be more intelligent if you compare their long-term survival strategies to those of the human race as a whole. Ever hear that phrase "Don't piss in your own pond?"

reply to post by jeantherapy


I am unsure how I am pissing in my own pond

I don't actually understand people and how they simply and quickly can not tell which animals experience emotion and understanding of death and which do not.

Frankly I think a lot of people are emotional morons that can't

You have

A: The maniacs that think every living creature is basically human and should never be food even though nature itself designed life to be a food chain

B: The maniacs who don't think anything is aware or wrong to eat seemingly incapable of emotional empathy and can't even understand in lesser animals that they DO feel pain and it's wrong to let them suffer.

It was mentioned earlier that some sheep and other animals show no awareness of death

Absolutely true, it's the way they are designed. I feel no regret over feeding on a chicken a creature that can have it's head cut off and continue to run around a room. It's very obviously natures version of the song "born this way" reproduce massively no existence beyond a perpetual state of deja vu in which it can be happy in an enclosure because it quickly forgets the other side no "thinking" process whatsoever, nature made it to be food that's why it is the way it is.

Then you have a dog, it has a strong memory, it's canine relative the wolf mates for life, forms strong bonds it can experience happiness, sadness, guilt, remorse, it plays it dreams it Loves it derives pleasure and pain from it's behavior

Obviously killing a dog is wrong obviously killing a chicken isn't wrong

I own 4 cats, 2 dogs one is Half Coyote, I have 4 Fish tanks and Aviary and a Rat enclosure

It's not just Obvious it's painfully obvious which animals feel and have memory and which don't (sadly the rats are as human as the cats and dogs btw) (sad because we treat them like # as a species)

The basic foods we consume in western society are FINE to eat. Mostly world wide people for eons knew and bred the animals which they knew were feeder animals, yes we have some things wrong, the killing of dolphins is sad, Octopus maybe shouldn't be on the list in some places Dog and Horse make the list and that obviously arose from need but it's very wrong but to the 90th %as a species we are cool on the subject and do it right only as we have become more intelligent does his insanity on either end of the spectrum evolve, honestly I think it's a socially induced form of mental illness

Do you want the test for what is okay to eat and not eat and what is boderline?

Will you miss it if you got to know it and can you actually get to know it?

Some animals are boderline sheep and cows very well may be and pigs too... Pigs are pretty smart, with no coincidence culturally (even if people blame god for everything) we kind of know that many cultures ban those animals, Cows in india, Pigs in the middle east

a funny part of it is, the animals we shouldn't eat or eat too much of end up not being good for us, the closer a species is to ourselves the higher the likely hood of prion disease, cannibals will go bat poop crazy, cows and pig can sometimes carry prion disease, there have been studies that show that most Alzheimers disease is actually forms of prion disease

In reality those animals are meant to be eaten LESS often, we eat too much beef and pig it's the sort of thing if done right RARELY is very good for you, you can't really be healthy without them, in reality a cow or two and or a pig or two for a family for the year would do the trick and we mass farm and slaughter them, probably not a good idea, heart disease, cholesterol other factors come in, once a month some beef or pork by HEALTH and NATURE maybe 2x by your genetics is what works best your body takes what it needs and you can be healthy

But Fish (most kinds) poultry, eggs, even milk belong weekly

at worst we are just excessive in meat consumption but no a cow isn't an ape a dog a dolphin a large octopus a Parrot a Feline... it is lower on the scale it's consumable, it doesn't think it has "some recognition) it can associate a very mundane and low level connection between You and some pleasure it receives like food being brought at best, you can Love a Cow and take pleasure in feeding it, it does learn to associate you with a reward to some degree but it doesn't Love it's very barely aware of what happens to it OR it has evolved to experience being consumed as part of it's existence because it barely reacts Hormone studies have been done, the younger a cow the more reaction there is, almost as if dying that way is a natural part of it's cycle as it ages like any herd animal this is simply the natural way for it perhaps

Regardless I digress.... I have to call most of this a mental illness of modern society on both ends of the spectrum, people being "out of touch" with animals in real and meaningful ways because it is again Painfully obvious which should be consumed and which should for the most part

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


I occasionally miss red meat and sometimes accidentally order something without thinking that has it in it, like without thinking I was low on energy and hungry and so picked up 4 tiny tacos for 1 dollar at the 7/11, then while eating it, realized, oops this is red meat. I did it without thinking.

We initially went to red meat after only fish and poultry diet, when the doctor said its not working and my son was anemic. And he really likes red meat, so I felt guilty. And introduced some red meat and also organic iron pills from the health food store. But, we're not doing that now. Its Cheese, yogurt, eggs, beans, and a bit of chicken. The fish sort of disappeared for us after Fukushima. I force myself to cook up chicken livers and onions at times, always wondering why all my sons love liver so much when I hated it all my life and even now, after parboiling it in milk for 30 minutes, have a really hard time with it. But, it does feel like the body needs it.

If it was up to me, I would have only fruit, cottage cheese, and cheese, yogurt and a little bit of solids every now and then, I can't eat much at a time, and usually nibble.

I just what the bodies here require is a complete meal and how important it is for teeth and bones, with osteoarthristis and bone loss, teeth loss, I am just warning we're being sold the wrong diet altogether.

It's a far more natural one we need.

And they have no right to murder animals for meat when we DO HAVE THE SOLUTIONS NOW. They're here, they can do it. Why aren't they. They're criminals for not harvesting food in a cruelty free manner always.

We now have the science to grow meat without brain and soul.

And do you know what stinks?

Mass produced live stock of the highest order.

Like any other creature animals are BRED for purpose which is far more humane when you FARM

In the past we Raised our livestock, the reality is cows are as dumb as they are because just like in nature we ate them when they got old, were starting to be in pain anyway, we handpicked the ones that were weak, stupid or just plain trouble etc.

So if you had 3 young cows and the kids loved Bessie because bessie kind of knew them and Bessie was friendly, Bessie became your Milk cow and she got to live a long happy life at worst and if bruno hit his head against the wall every day, was idiotic never remembered you when you entered his pen Bruno was bred for consumption and we spectated and created proper food,

Today you drive by a Bar S plant in Texas and it's like a concentration camp, it's like the Matrix in the end it's wrong suffering for the animal and it's de evolution it's bad, it's no surprise we see a return of prion diseases no one takes care of the animals

Nature works best

It's hard for a human to understand but for some species this kind of association with humans should be a GOOD thing

Take Cattle... chose a life, your an herbivore nature designed you as prey, so your involuntary choices are...

A: Live 3 years get riddled with disease then brutally killed by a Tiger and consumed alive

or

B: Be raised on a farm, be tended to, be fed, never suffer for food, be kept warm in the winter, handled by children shown some form of affection be guaranteed reproduction... and then LATER only when after having a life expectancy years and years and years beyond what nature intended for you and having lived a life where you were cared for in safety without ever experiencing fight or flight or discomfort or illness you at the end when your bones hurt when you are feebled of mind from age then be consumed, killed quickly and humanely without even knowing?

Farm life is a benefit for those species, wonderful really it can even be said to have purpose and meaning you are provided for and at the very end give back (not that any cow understands that) but it is a GOOD life. It is a desired place from an evolutionary standpoint.

What we do NOW is of course sickening. head to head packed into dense farms fed horrible food never known, never roam, never appreciated, no LIFE whatsoever then lined up to watch the others go (and yes they do have a hormonal reaction)

It's not how it''s supposed to be done...

Just bring back or mandate NORMAL farms for normal people and animals and overall eat LESS meat is the rational solution because the FARM is not a cruel or bad thing, the factory is.

reply to post by jeantherapy


What is with this unhealthy misanthropy???

So because I desire a PROPER estimation of an animals sentience in relation to a human beings uniqueness - a clarification that notes not just similarities but also DIFFERENCES - this means that I all of a sudden hate animals and am a gun-touting humans-are-the-best fanatic???

If that is the best you can do in debating me, I can understand why you avoid debating

Originally posted by dontreally

When we first brought my new dog home, she would get into the trash looking for stuff to eat. She would try to get food off the table. You could argue by your logic that it was an instinctual behavior, correct? She was driven to food, which is one of the most powerful instinctual drivers any life form can have, but she eventually learned that getting into the trash made us angry, and stopped doing it.

A part of her thought process must have included foresight, she must have weighted her options and understood some type of cause and effect, and she must have decided that keeping us happy was more important than the instant gratification of readily available food.

We aren't abusive, we don't go off on her in a mad rage, but we did make it clear that we disapproved, and since she doesn't want to anger us, she has made a behavioral change.

Would you say that shows a sign of self awareness? She is making the choice to put off a major driving force.

You mentioned your dog getting excited when you go upstairs cause they understand it means it's time for a walk, and you claim it's part of their instinct to walk, this brings me to an example of my my dogs behavior. They understand when I ask "Outside?" I'm asking them if they need the bathroom. When they need it, they go outside, when they don't they just sit there and stare at me. They are understanding the question and deciding if it applies them. would you say that's self awareness?

When one of my chihuahuas is accidentally stepped on and screams, the other dogs stop what they are doing and come to check with a concern in their eyes and body posture, and they lick each other. That must be based on empathy. Can we have empathy without a sense of self awareness? I think the ability to relate is a very self aware thing.

What about Elephants who cry over death, and even make trips back to the bones of loved ones and rub them with their trunks. what are they crying about? what are they doing when they rub the bones? are they recalling memories? Is the act of missing someone a part of self awareness?